I know that this does not fit with MB principles. However, I am interested in the scenarios of those of you who have been successful in giving ultimatums to your WSes.

What did you say and do that worked when they were indecisive about or refused NC?

Also please respond to my questions on URGENT HELP NEEDED PLEASE. Thanks.

<small>[ February 02, 2003, 03:16 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

While the word "ultimatum" tends to have a lot of negative emotions tied to it...I don't have a problem with it. We deal with them every day in every aspect of our lives. If we don't do our jobs...guess what...we get fired! If we don't put gas in our cars...they don't run. If we don't do "x"...then "y" happens! That is how it works!

Giving an ultimatum is setting boudaries for what we will or will not have in our lives. The part that we do have control over. So be sure to put gas in your car, even if it's cold and raining and uncomfortable...if not...you're not going anywhere for long!

As adults, we have a responsiblity to state our boundaries clearly so that they are understood...then we must be willing to live within them. If we don't set our own boundaries and abide by them...we are not living up to our own responsiblities. jmho

I was not refused outright on the NC issue, but of course, he did indeed break it. I just told him that if he wanted his marriage and the chance to try and get our marriage back on track, NC was something that was going to have to be agreed on...at the very least...on his side of it and what he could control. He knew if he wasn't willing to met this boundary, our marriage was not going to continue, I was not going to try to reclaim our marriage...I was going to be gone!

Then it was HIS choice if he wanted to stay in the marriage or if he wanted to continue with contact. He could have just as easily told me that he was going to continue contact and if I didn't like it, I could leave. That could have been his boundary (ultimatum)....then I would have had the choice to live within that boundary or not (I wouldn't have).

Ultimatums are all about choices...for both parties. They have a choice! You can NOT make them make the choice you would wish. You can NOT make them live up to your boundaries. You can only set your own boundaries and live with them.

mimi1254-Ultimatums are tough, they are almost like veiled threats. If you do X I will do Y. Not good in a R of any kind. Boundaries are good but hard to maintain for some.

Since you editied your message I think you were talking about NC. I told my WW about NC and she said it is too much to ask another person to do. I gave my WW an ultimatum at Thanksgiving: Let the OM go or I am leaving town for Thanksgiving. She said go and then spent Thanksgiving with OM!

You can't change how someone will act, only they can change if they want to. Ultimatums or threats will only make things worse as it may force change when they are not ready. Boundaries are good, threats are bad. It is a fine line between them.

Good luck
STTSI

So I really need to be thinking about my boundaries and making them clear to him in a calm, respectful way- not making an ultimatum?

That would be stating to something like this?

"I will do my part in working on our marriage, working on the issues we need to work on. I also am asking you to do your part by communicating with me your intentions regarding the OW. I know that I cannot control your actions and I don't want to. I just know that the current situation is too painful and devastating to me. My ability to function is being compromised; I can't eat, sleep, perform as needed at my job."

How does this sound? I believe that it will help me to have a PLAN and stop living in limbo with him.

Mimi
Mimi: " also am asking you to do your part by communicating with me "

I would reword this as he will take this as negative, as "here she goes again telling me what I have to do".

Wifey is right, you just need to state your boundaries, what you can and can not do. What you are and are not going to do. Make it all about you Mimi. That you love him, and want to work on the issues that made this situation happen. For me, as I told you, I knew that while he was here and continueing with OW, and planning on wedding, after her divorse, and blah blah blah. Then throwing it in front of me and being disrespectful. I thought that my alternative was he needed to go and do what he needed to do. That if she divorced and married him, so be it. I was not getting anywhere with him in his state of mind. I have emailed him occassionally about issues, I am pleasant....he was here one day and he could see how much better I looked and I could see that he wasn't "walking on air" because it is not (as of right now) going as he fantasized. But he needs to find his own way and nothing I could do was going to change that.

If you want I will email you the exact letter I wrote him after he left. But like I said, we all out different and so are our WS's personalities even though they do the WS scripting like clones.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"I will do my part in working on our marriage, working on the issues we need to work on. I also am asking you to do your part by communicating with me your intentions regarding the OW. I know that I cannot control your actions and I don't want to. I just know that the current situation is too painful and devastating to me. My ability to function is being compromised; I can't eat, sleep, perform as needed at my job." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">jmho..."I love you. I want to do my part in working on our marriage, working on the issues I need to work through. The current situation is too painful and devastating on me to continue as we have been, it must change. My ability to function is being compromised; I can no longer perform as needed to have a healthy life."

This is about YOU! Not him.

Anyone else want to edit mine and either add or delete to make the message clearer???

mimi1254,

You have a lot of good advice on how to talk to WH. I just want to ask you ... what do you want to accomplish by this R talk ?. Have you address the issues that WH has on the M ?. Your taker start to show up, probably you are ready for plan B but make sure that you have done a good job on plan A or you are completely unable to do plan A. Plan A/B is not for every one, it not for WS that has personnal issues such as sex addiction or other chemicals addictions as well as physical/verbal abusive. It is not for BS that is a close to perfect SO (nothing to plan A about) ... it is not for BS who could not control LB. I will read your old posts and later I will give you more of my 2¢.

Hang in there and vent in here .... -rh-

Note: Have you read the language of love ?, you might be able to choose your word pictures to describe your feeling to WH.

My PLAN A seemed to be working until this weekend. Therefore, I'm really not sure what is going on. As I've indicated on the thread "IS THIS A BAD SIGN?",my WS has been accountable this week,etc. but he still REFUSES to tell me what he plans to do and is doing about the OW. Steve Harley thinks he's trying to end it on his own. However, the bottom line is my WS is continuing to be UTTERLY DISHONEST and UNOPEN with me about the important issues. For example, he stopped the Direct Deposit on his paycheck. I had to ask him to deposit the check and he did but that certainly was dishonest and deceitful for him to do that without telling me.

I guess it depends on what he says when he comes home. He went to a conference 3 hrs. away. He told me during the week that he was THINKING about going. He took my son to the doctor which is a new thing for him; he had been saying that he was not going to do anything for the children. The dr.'s visit was a pleasant experience for my son. They related well together although he has generally been negative with him; our issue has been my focus on the children over him and he has resented the children.

Then, after that good thing, he drops my son off and tells him to tell me that he went to the conference. He has not called me as yet to tell me where he is and when he is coming home. As far as I can tell he is not with the OW. The conference is about a business venture that he is seriously interested in.

After a spell of things going well, he pulls surprises such as this and refuses to explain himself.

Also, redhat, sometimes I think he is being verbally abusive when he goes on his tirades, ranting about all the things I did wrong to create the climate for the affair. However, Steve Harley sees this as part of the addiction, the fog.

So my dilemma is:

Do I continue with my Plan A? It's only been 3 weeks since D-Day. Its mostly been going well. I goofed up on Thursday but it was in response to his continuous tirades.

Do I proceed with "boundary" conversation as we have been discussing? I wrote him a note to this effect yesterday morning, saying its devastating for me for the contact to continue, and he reacted by pulling this stunt. I was thinking that MAYBE my note was considered a LB because he was trying to stop contact. The problem is he DID NOT COMMUNICATE WHAT HE WAS DOING and there was indication that he was with her LAST SUNDAY. His poor communication and/or dishonesty is a problem.

I appreciate your feedback. Please continue to help me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mimi1254:
<strong>What did you say and do that worked when they were indecisive about or refused NC?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi again Mimi - NC was a really hard topic for us, as my H's friendship with OW pre-dated our meeting. It only became more than friendship in the last few years. There was no way he would even hear of NC for quite a while - he just couldn't imagine life without being in contact with her.

As my H and I got closer, I would bring it up periodically, and we finally reached a point where he admitted that he knew NC was inevitable. But still, nothing... So, a gift-giving occasion rolled around, and guess what I asked for, really nicely? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Now, I do realize that this would never have gone over if we hadn't reached the point we were at - my insisting he have NC earlier (didn't know about MB!) didn't go over at all! But we had gotten to the lovey-dovey stuff, and I thought he would possibly be receptive, and besides, he had to know that I was still thinking about it, and still bothered by it.

So, at that point, he said he would break contact, which he did by phone (still didn't know about MB.) However, he did have some slip-ups afterward, which is not too surprising as it happens frequently after NC letters, etc. In fact, my H was very bothered that he had hurt this person who "had always been there for him." (I know, I know!) I think it was harder for him to have NC knowing that he was hurting someone he really had cared about for many years.

So NC was a long time in coming for us. I really had to be patient, and let him decide that he really did want to be with me again. I think that our situation was a bit more complicated than some due to the long-term friendship, and he still decided to keep his family together. So don't ever think there is no hope at this early stage of the game! Fog takes time to clear.

MT

I can tell you about my situation but every situation is unique. My H started the A away from home and then came home to me. So his A was long distance. Also, his A had not been going on for very long.

The first stage for me was Plan A (although I didn't know about this site yet). In my case I needed to reconnect with my H as he had been away alot. I did a pretty good plan A for six weeks. I ignored continued contact, reiterated hope for our M, reestablished SF, and set up "dates" for us to go on. Made it clear I thought we had something worth saving and I thought we could survive.

But, my H talked about his plans to move out- said he needed to "find himself". Started looking at apartments. So, my approach was to make sure he fully understood the consequences- that I would get a separation agreement, that I wanted to establish visitation re the kids, that people would be aware of what was happening, and no I would not be his friend. I did not couch those things as threats though. NOT I'll tell everyone. More- HIM "I guess you're going to make yourself out to be a martyr to everyone we know". ME "No, but I'm not going to lie." and then drop it, enough said. I also read to him from affair books that illuminated the dismal success rate of affair relationships, the toll it takes on the kids (how can we best protect our children through the divorce?) and whenever I could I carefully and subtly pointed out the realities and problems of OW.

However, my H from Day 1 denied being in love with OW, denied wanting to have her move in (though I was sure he discussed it with her) (told me she would live in a separate apartment), told me their relationship was impossible and even said sex wasn't good. However his actions pointed in the opposite direction and he sure was willing to hurt me. In the meantime, he was spending a ton of money on our house. So my case is probably not as severe.

Finally, I overheard a graphic message from OW that I couldn't ignore, after my H had scrapped plans to move out. I left the home and went to my sister's. Called my H, he tried to accuse me of snooping. I turned the tables around and said, how would you feel if you heard a message like this on my cell phone? I kept repeating I can not live with a liar and a cheat. I don't like the person you've become and I don't want to be near you.

The next morning he asked to me to come home. Tried to buy some more fence sitting time but a few days later, he decided to fly out to her city and decide. Told me before he left he knew the A was a mistake. Then went and saw her (did have s*x with her) but broke it off. Came home and it was over.

I did LB heavy duty which caused some continued phone contact but when I found out about that I said, that's it you're out now. Pack your bags, he started crying and promised NC.

It took quite a while for him to come out of the fog but he has. I don't think it was so much missing or yearning for OW as him working out his issues about me. My H was very childish and had resisted growing up. Kind of resented me for being the responsible one. He had to work through that. Part of the attraction of OW was that she seemed like an irresponsible "kindred spirit". He realized ultimately that that was pretty scary- he didn't want to be with someone like that.

In my opinion, there have been some good signs from your H- ie. taking son to doctor appt. If your H is not with OW at the conference, I would not issue any ultimatums period. But there is the issue of him going away and not telling you where he went. I suggested it before, I would try to give him a taste of his own medicine. Go away- and I mean overnight- leaving a "cryptic note" and you are just not there when he gets home. Let him stew and wonder where you are.

Whatever you do, don't LB meaning yell, threaten etc. You echo stuff back to him that he's said "You've told me you think our relationship is hopeless" and you can say "I love you but I can't prevent you from leaving if you want to pursue a life with OW".

When is your next appointment with Steve? Sure would like to know his take on this!

Also Mimi, I thought your H reestablished direct deposit of his paycheck?

Espoir:
My WS told me that he started direct deposit again. He does not get paid again until the 31st. We'll see! I don't know if I can believe him. That's sad.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mimi1254:
<strong>Do I continue with my Plan A? It's only been 3 weeks since D-Day.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep, this is the mimi we've come to know and love. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Bet you know what I'm gonna say?

Slow down!!!!

Patience, time, consistency.

mimi - you've gotten very good reactions from your H from your Plan A on your self. (Note I didn't say that your Plan A has been working on him.) He's noticed that you can make changes and better meet his ENs. What he's concerned about now, I bet, is whether these changes are real and lasting.

Your ultimate desire is normal - you want to end the affair. Re-read Rule #1. You can't. Only he or OW can do this.

Some WSs, based on what I've read on this forum, respond to ultimatums. I'll postulate that these WSs are the ones with a bit of sense seeing through the fog. But if the fog has them tightly socked in, an ultimatum usually sounds like a reason for them to further justify their decision that the BS is poison to their happiness.

There's a fine line between ultimatums and setting boundaries. You got good advice about this above. Try hard to maneuver on the right side of this line.

Please, please, please try to reach down and find the strength to continue Plan A. 3 weeks seems like an eternity to you, but unless a WS immediately ends the A upon discovery, it seems that months rather than weeks is the time scale that progress will be measured on.

This is where we come in for you. We can help you endure.

WAT

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mimi1254:
<strong>....He took my son to the doctor which is a new thing for him; he had been saying that he was not going to do anything for the children. The dr.'s visit was a pleasant experience for my son. They related well together although he has generally been negative with him; our issue has been my focus on the children over him and he has resented the children.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Did you blew his head with hot air for what he has done ?. If you had not, you have to show your appreciation ... it is a small step for a "normal husband" it is a giant leap for your WH ... lol !. You see, you have to train Martians, we think w/ stuff between our legs not between our ears <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> . He tries to fillin your ENs w/ out realizing it, you need to direct him to how you want it done <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> .

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>The conference is about a business venture that he is seriously interested in.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pay attention here ... ask him about it and fill in his admirations EN ... and thank him for trying to provide better for the family <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>After a spell of things going well, he pulls surprises such as this and refuses to explain himself. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is a roller coaster of your life. It will be up and down until he is out from the fog. He doesn't need to explain anything ... actions speak louder than words <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Also, redhat, sometimes I think he is being verbally abusive when he goes on his tirades, ranting about all the things I did wrong to create the climate for the affair. However, Steve Harley sees this as part of the addiction, the fog.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, WH speaks fogesse. However this is very valuable plan A material !!!!. Write down his rants on one coloumn then on the other you write down actions to correct this. If he rants the same thing more than once, 99% that was your issues that you need to correct in plan A. However you should not LB at all time. When WH rants the real issues you should appologize and gear up your plan A. When WH is ranting really fog, you reverse babble back to him w/o LB. e.g. 1.(real issues) WH: "You never make dinner when I came home late" You:"sorry, my dear, I did make you dinner last week when you came home late and I will remember to do it at all time". 2.(real fog) WH: "You are White and I like Asian" You:" I am White when you married me and the last time I checked I am still White. Do you know where I could have race implant ?. This verbal abuse is just "hurt" feeling ... HOW COULD YOU LET ME DO THIS ... well, you answer it with plan A. Take the issues away and let WS stare at A ...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>So my dilemma is:

Do I continue with my Plan A? It's only been 3 weeks since D-Day. Its mostly been going well. I goofed up on Thursday but it was in response to his continuous tirades.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong>
Master WAT already gave you a very good reply on this one. Yes, you have to !. WH still allows you to fillin his ENs and WH still receptive of your plan A. Stick with it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Do I proceed with "boundary" conversation as we have been discussing? I wrote him a note to this effect yesterday morning, saying its devastating for me for the contact to continue, and he reacted by pulling this stunt. I was thinking that MAYBE my note was considered a LB because he was trying to stop contact.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There is no boundry in plan A .... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> , the boundry is defined by WH and how much you could get away with it. Don't kick yourself for LB'ed, fine tune it for next time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> The problem is he DID NOT COMMUNICATE WHAT HE WAS DOING and there was indication that he was with her LAST SUNDAY. His poor communication and/or dishonesty is a problem.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Safe your breath ... in plan A you are suppose to have no expectation. Safe this one for ammends when he is out of the fog and ready to work on M.

You are in the right track.

-rh-

<small>[ January 26, 2003, 10:50 AM: Message edited by: redhat ]</small>

I personally think it's absurd that a WS would even ask to have continued contact...fog or no fog..that's inhumane!

On dday my FWH and I agreed to NC we then went out of town for a couple of days to work on us and to get the initial conversations out of the way without the distraction of the kids. When we got back we met with the OW and her H (next door neighbors and prior to A, close friends...A started as friends didn't proceed to EA stage until year later, then full PA 2 days prior to dday) and my H told them there would be NC. He agreed with that it was logical...she wanted to still "be friends" (pretty ridiculous), she didn't want NC but agreed.

4 days after dday she rollerbladed to waylay my H on his way to work out at 5:30 am. They the spoke a couple times a day for 3 days (behind my back) but during that time, he realized what an idiot he'd been and stopped it. I found out 2 days later (opened OnStar bill and saw he'd charged cell minutes). I was more devastated this time...even though he'd stopped. Good news is that once NC happened he was mostly over her in days..feelings turned to fury and disgust within a couple weeks.

Once fog lifted and he started getting educated, he saw her in true light and realized how he got himself in this mess.

I wouldn't ever be able to forgive him no matter how much I loved him..no matter how deep his fog..if after dday he told me he wouldn't agree to NC!!!! Recovering from A is hard enough even though my H is model FWH...he's read all books. posts to this site, been through counseling with SH, in IC. Shows total remorse, answers all questions (this was/is toughest part for him), follows all MB principles, shows me he loves me all day long, etc. All that being said...if he didn't agree to NC up front...all those things would never make me feel same about him!

How could they..pre dday they were able to trick themselves about the damage that would occur upon discovery..damage to themselves, devasation to BS, children, extended family, friends, etc. After dday, they've witnessed this...can't hide from it...it's an everyday thing at our house..if they witness this and keep on going...what does that mean???? Even if they come out of fog..how do you overcome that resentment??

My FWH was happy I insisted on NC, he also believed that if he did it again..he would be gone...no ifs ands or buts!!! He felt it showed my love for him and my strength to force this issue. They aren't thinking straight during fog...it's up to us at that point to protect ourselves and them. Once they come out of fog, then it's needs to be a equal partnership.

I know I deviate from MB in this area but it worked for me!

For me its been no contact since November when my husband apologised to her husband and she spit the dummy at me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ), or hit the road Jack.

Even at this stage in our recovery if he breaks it( which includes everything from him sighting her to her leaving more messages on his work machine to tell me immediately)... its hit the road jack...with a size 7 boot on his tail and louisville slugger in chase. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ohh yeah and one hell of a good lawyer.

Its for my self protection.My boundries are firmly drawn in the sand, he crosses them and well he has no-one else to blame for the consquences. If I dont set my own boundries and stick to them, then I have no-one else to blame but myself either.

take care

I think laying down the law upon discovery works well in some situations. But when you are dealing with an addicted WS who has not had their needs met for some time, this can often backfire. Some WS' would be THRILLED to take you up on that ultimatum and the only result is that you practically THROW them in the arms of the OP.

So, now instead of working out the problems that led to the conditions that led to the affair, you have an additional problem: a WS who LIVES with the OP. End of marriage.

Boundaries do have to be set, NO MATTER WHAT, but it can make all the difference in how you set them, and sometimes the WORST thing you can do is give them an ultimatum. Plan A and Plan B are all about negotiating an end to the affair and, I think, give the most HOPE for reconciliation.

Don't get me wrong, I think there are times when ultimatums are valuable. In my current marriage, I didn't give him an ultimatum on D-Day, I kicked his [censored] out. I said "this marriage is over, good-bye," and called the realtor. End of story.

We had JUST GOT MARRIED and I had never failed to meet his needs and I knew it. So, it was not a matter of me having to correct my behavior, this was entirely his issue. And I knew nothing about MB at that time. I found out a month later when we went into counseling. Anyway, he came back 2 days later and begged me to give him another chance and to go to counseling.

I decided that I would go to counseling with him a couple of times and then dump him so I could at least say that I had "tried." Well, here I am 2 years later and I have a wonderful marriage, better than I could ever imagine! He has not stepped one foot out of line ever since.

On the other hand, my last DH left me for another woman in 1999 because I treated the man like dirt for 20 years. I undermined him at every turn and wouldn't sleep with him. I had no respect for him. When he told me he "wasn't in love" and wanted a divorce, I threw him out and treated him with angry love busters daily. Little did I know that when i threw him out, I threw him right into the arms of the OW.

I even saw him once with his girlfriend and pulled him over on the side of the road and commenced to kicking, scratching and hitting him. When he got in his truck and locked the door, I smashed my car into his. Anyway, looking back, my ultimatum {throwing him out} and my love busters very effectively ended my marriage. All I did was reinforce his decision to leave me. Had I used MB principles and tried to meet his needs, I might very well still be married to him today. I often wonder about that.

Sorry to be so long, but can you see the difference in the situations?

<small>[ January 26, 2003, 08:29 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

oops!

<small>[ January 26, 2003, 08:29 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

"But when you are dealing with an addicted WS who has not had their needs met for some time, this can often backfire."

It comes down to that doesn't it, knowing if you did do everything you could to meet needs that WS would not let you meet for only reasons they know. That is really the issue in affairs, sometimes no matter what the BS was doing before, after or during the A, it just wasn't perceived as good enough. We have read here on MB that some WS, knew that it was not what their BS was doing or not doing, the affair happened anyways.

So, if we all had that fixed knowledge it would be easy to know exactly how to proceed.

But I think usually we do know if we are honest and can often tell the difference between manufactured complaints and real needs. It helps alot to take the EN questionaire. I knew the truth deep down with my last marriage, I didn't need a questionaire to know I wasn't meeting his needs. But you are right, there will always be the WS who doesn't want their needs met and there isn't much you can do about that.