Jen - I'm not sure if I've ever replied to one of your posts and I don't post much too much anymore myself but this one caught my eye.
Okay, so I've just had a ROUGH work day and am on my second glass of wine ...but here goes...

You being there for Him in this great time of need (I just lost my Mom - I know) is what is important. No, you aren't "back together", nor should this event bring you back together - don't put that pressure on you or him. He's probably back to keeping his distance because he thinks you'll decide all is forgiven and that the "payoff" for your concern and attention and loving behaviour is forgiveness. Don't even bring the subject up. He's not ready for that. He's lost his Dad, you are there because you love him and genuinely care....that's it. Reach out to him and let him reach out to you..."for the moment"..don't attach it to anything else. Does that make any sense at all?? (As I said, I've had a hell of a day at work and am on glass #2 at 2am!!)
Not sure when I can check this thread again Jen, but just let go of the what this means for you and your H right now, and be all you can be for him and for yourself right now. This is about him losing his Dad.

God Bless you Jen - you are one strong woman.

Hugs
A

T-zero, thanks for your encouragement.

Alberta, I'm so sorry to hear that you lost your mom. Indeed, I won't be bringing our relationship up at all. When he said he was worried that "this" would bring us back together, I told him that it hadn't, that I'm just here for him right now, in whatever way he wants me to be or needs me to be, whether that's with him, to talk to him, to comfort him, or to be away from him and give him his space.

His grandmother (on his mom's side) just called me. It's the first time I've spoken to her since June. The guilt of what I've done just keeps hitting me SO HARD in the past few days. It's just SO WRONG that I wasn't with my H all through the fall and winter while his dad was deteriorating. It's so wrong that I'm not with him continuously now. I thought I had forgiven myself for my actions, but I am so disgusted with myself it's not funny. When I should be focussing all my attention on comforting my H's family, I catch myself feeling guilty or feeling really sad about my own situation, feeling so alone in the midst of all this. My H has said several times in the past few days how guity he feels for being so upset about his own life and his own problems, and how his dad's death causes him to think about them.

I know that death affects us all in different ways, and certainly causes us to examine our own lives, and ask ourselves if they are as they should be, so that if God were to take us now.....but I do feel so guilty for being sad about my life and my lack of closeness to my H and about how much hurt I've already caused him, that still tears him apart, and now this has him so upset it's hard to watch.

I feel so bad too that I haven't seen my FIL since June. He and I got along so well, my MIL repeated over and over yesterday how much he loved me. To an extent, I'm lucky b/c I never witnessed his health declining and I remember him as healthy and happy. I feel so bad that because of my infidelity I hadn't seen him in so long.

I know I need to be strong for him, and his familly, but I really am hurting this morning. Thanks for letting me vent folks.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Jen <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Oh also, a major thing happened yesterday. My H said in mid-conversation, in front of his family, "...back when I was a good husband..." in reference to something he bought me for my birthday last year (this computer actually).

I got him alone a few minutes later and told him that he was always a good husband. I thought that was the right thing to do at this time.

But, BUT, maybe he's coming out of his fog? Maybe he's beginning to see that he had a hand in "the state of the marriage" prior to my A?

Did I say the wrong thing?

I'm beginning to sense that he is really doubting himself as a husband and as a person, like he's lacking in something. Instead of yelling at me that he's perfect, he's beginning to let his insecurty show through.

Any thoughts?

Jen

My h's grandmother invited me over to my MIL's house later this morning....do I phone my H and ask his permission to go, or do I just go????

Jen

Jen,

You didnt say the wrong thing. He is just really raw. All of his reality is in his face now. You said exactly what any good wife should say. You were supportive and respectful to him. You know already that now is not the time to be radically honest. Also think on this...so many times you are hard on yourself because you feel selfish, guilty, etc. But in this instance when the first time he said anything remotely un-foglike you did not think of yourself. You thought of his comfort. This speaks volumes about your love for him and your personal growth. His admission of failures in the marriage was not a moment of clarity for him it was rooted in deep sorrow and regret. At these moments only comfort can help.

Now internally you can be comforted that his venom at you is two-fold. I know this may sound illogical but hear me out. He punishes you to punish himself. He does not give or recieve love, he is stagnant. Telling him that you were there for him through this was excellent. No pressure just love. It will not be your FIL death that brings you together just as it really wasnt your affair that separated you. The same thing that pulled you apart will bring you back together...your reactions to adversity.

Prior to all of this your husband did not know what is was to be a husband. He had poor communication skills and used manipulation to try to maintain the marriage. His reaction to adversity was abusive to you. In turn you revolted by giving away what you knew to be most precious to your husband...intimacy. You too did not understand how to communicate with your husband in a way that positive. Your reaction to adversity was despondent.

Now you both face new adversity. No marriage, no life is without them. You see things so much more clearly now. You are much more honest with yourself and with him. You are doing wonderfully.

Some things I think that are important for you to keep in mind.

There were problems in your marriage. Your infidelity was but one of them...being a severly betrayed spouse this is nothing I take lightly. I know you own your mistakes but avoid paralyzing yourself with guilt. You are an adult, you made a mistake, you have sad moments because of them, you are changed.

As you know people grieve differently, just as you do not take any kindness from him for granted do not take withdrawl personally either. (Men especially have different ways of grieving...all you can do is wade through it. An example to offer you comfort. When my father's mother died he had needed to be on his own. Now my parents are and always have been deeply in love. And my mother is unfathomably comforting to him yet when my grandmother was laid to rest...no hugging...no comfort...he just needed to be on his own. It was about the death of his parent. All he needed was for us to respec his needs. You are doing that as any wife should-estranged or not)

Do not ignore your own grieving process. Ofcourse it is secondary in your support role as wife but it is important. Do not look back now the pain is too much. In time you will deal with what was and what is...now is the time to take care of your husband as best you can, as he needs. Not as you think it should have been otherwise. Do what you need to do, take a hot shower, cry, scream, sleep, have a glass of wine. Then pull yourself together and go with your instincts.

I cannot stress enough what a huge thing it was to show him comfort when he expressed his despair about his role as husband. It shows me that it is your first instinct to show love. Healing will come to all of you.

I thought of you and your family all night. Prayers and concern are with you.

I will check back as I can. Do what you need to do.

ayslyne

And if I have never told you. I am proud to know you.

Sorry that I missed your question but I hope you just went. They have asked for your presence, your support.

Regardless if you called him or not for permission you are attempting in every way to support and love him whether directly or to those closest to him.

ayslyne

Yes, I just went. I left him a voicemail letting him know I was going, but didn't ask permission. His family is treating me very much like I belong there, no questions asked. I spent many hours there today, and will do so again tomorrow.

There was some progress today when we talked during a few quiet moments here and there. Once he said he just had no feelings for me anymore. My response to that was that I could understand that, that he didn't need me, that his needs were being met by other people, so why would he need me. He immediately asked if I meant his two female friends, and I said yes, them and your brothers, your family, they're all meeting your needs, so you don't really need me.

We got on the topic of how I am doing with all of this. He actually asked me! I told him that I was racked with guilt over how I should never not have been at his side in the past 8 months, especially while his father was sick, and especially now. He said something odd in response, like, oh good, you feel just like me, eg. guilty for worrying about our relationship situation during all of this.

Then a bit later, I asked him if he really had NO feelings for me at all. I asked him if he didn't at least care about me like I was a friend he'd had for a long time. He said yes. I told him again that I'd never stopped loving him. Then he said, well, he does have feelings for me, he's just not sure what they are right now.

Shortly after I told him that, he gave me a peck on the lips and a bit of a hug. Now that's amazing.

We talked again about how we both didn't want this (my FIL's death) to be what brings us back together. We both agree on that. It has to be something we both freely choose to do (getting back together).

Tonight, he's back to phoning me and asking me if I want to come over and have sex. He's called like 5 or 6 times. We had a variety of different things to say each time on the phone, and it remained playful banter throughout, but I'm not going over there tonight. During the first phone call we talked about a bunch of other intelligent and important things before he brought it up again, thankfully.

I think he is impressed with how I carried myself today. I didn't allow myself to be all teary around everyone. I played the strong woman, the supportive woman, and really helped out a lot around my MIL's place.

If nothing else, I get to show him that I'm still a good person, for extended periods of time this week!

Oh more good news, I get to sit next to him at the funeral service. A huge relief!

Well, I probably typed more personal info here than I should have tonight, but I need to hear some feedback telling me I'm on the right track, and that I'm not imagining that things are going reasonably well.

Jen

Jen,

You said -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We talked again about how we both didn't want this (my FIL's death) to be what brings us back together. We both agree on that. It has to be something we both freely choose to do (getting back together).
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why not? Why not use this to bring the two of you closer together? To bring him back into reality and to examine what you two shouldn't lose?

Jen, I'm sorry for your loss and for the grief that you and your H will go through. I do not see anything wrong with your FIL's death being a cause of you getting back together. Good things can happen from tragedy. Sometimes God's ways are beyond our ability to comprehend.

Jen,

Thoughts and prayers are with you. I just wanted to comment on the getting back together because of these events. I understand where you are coming from. You want there to be concrete healing in the marriage and not just "we're both sad so might as well go through the motions of being married." But on the same token people are right when they say from tragedy peace can come. This can be a growth point for both of you. All events affect us. Neither of you can remove this event and the way it will affect your recovery.

You are doing a wonderful job. Much admiration and compassion during your grieving process.

ayslyne

JB; just remember that "Everything is, has been, and always will be in divine order, and unfolding according to a divine plan"

We don't know what experiences spirit brings to our lives, nor for what purpose, but we should embrace them with love and thankfulness, as they often are the catalysts for positive changes and for our personal growth.

Just embrace it, live it, and your heart will show you the way. If this marks the beginning of your coming back together, so be it. Rest assured that it was meant to be so.

All my love for you and your family during these difficult moments.

<small>[ January 30, 2003, 01:07 AM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

Jen,
How are you doing? How is H holding up? Is he allowing you to support him during this time of grieving? I am glad to hear that his family has made you feel welcome to be with them through all of this.

Almost

Thanks for the words of encouragement everyone. I am surviving. It is so hard to watch my H and his mom, and his brothers, and his grandparents etc. go through so much pain. My FIL was an amazing, joyful, loving man who devoted his life to his family.

I have had the privilege of spending a great deal of time with my H and his family all week long.

I thought I had forgiven myself for my mistakes, but the guilt is back in full force. I am grieving not only for my FIL this week, but also for my marriage. I look back on the amazing relationship my FIL and MIL had, their complete and total devotion to each other, and I recall when my H and I used to be so much in love with each other that we thought nothing could ever take that away.

My own brother told me yesterday that he has never heard me sounding so sad.

I am extra sad because even if I can somehow win my H back (and that hasn't happened yet), he still seems firmly convinced that I was the only one at fault, that I had many faults, etc. He is so emotionally close to his two female friends, and with the passing of his father, how can I tell him to drop them? He feels even more entitled to them now.

If only I could go back in time and NEVER allow him to become such close friends with any females.....I've even told him I think that was the first of my many mistakes.

I am so very thankful for all of the time I have been getting to spend with my H and his family, and they are all treating me very well, like I'm still a member of the family. It's just that my H is still miles away from taking me back. His anger and restentment is still strong. My intense jealousy for his female friends has gotten me into tears or an argument in front of him already several times this week.

I still see my role this week as one of support, but it's also one of trying to show my H and his family why I'm better than my H's two female friends, and why he should stay with me. That really is my sad little perspective.

Any advice?

Jen <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

As I obsessively sit here and skim other people's threads, I thought I should add one more detail.

A large part of my immense guilt is the fact that I had finally (or so I thought) reached a point where I was close to telling my H, treat me well, or I don't want to be around you at all. I was starting to feel like I could walk away from him. Being with him again, and with his family again makes me question how I ever thought like that. BUT I have realized many things about him that I can't live with:

1 - him having close female friends
2 - him being emotionally abusive to me, treating me like I'm lacking in many areas, putting me down, getting in little mean digs here and there
3 - treating me like a showpiece
4 - treating me like a sex object
5 - not loving me as I am, but always telling me how I need to be a better wife

My brother told me yesterday that you can't ever get someone who is emotionally abusive (and manipulative) to ever change. Does anyone agree? Disagree? Why or why not?

Jen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My brother told me yesterday that you can't ever get someone who is emotionally abusive (and manipulative) to ever change. Does anyone agree? Disagree? Why or why not?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would beg to differ with your brother Jen.

People do change when they are ready and put the effort necessary to do so. My exW is a good example of this, because it wasn't until after she had hit rock bottom, that she made the decision to become a healthy woman and mother. She voluntarily went thru psychiatric treatment, parenting classes, and now is very much somebody I trust our daughters with. So if she, a former sexual addict, could do it then it stands to reason that more people can follow suit.

Jen-

First of all I have to tell you how sorry I am to read of your FIL's death. This sort of thing would be very difficult under the best of circumstances so my heart goes out to your family. I agree with CoffeeMan in that given the right motivations, people can and do make positive changes in their lives. There are many examples on these boards! For your H, it's really going to come down to how much he values the M and his own happiness. Even though he's not showing any visible signs, you can bet he's spent some time pondering why he treats you the way he does. Sounds like he's most comfortable blaming the A for everything, but that won't last. That old saying about how resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die is true!! Hopefully, it will be a situation where you're still open to R when he comes round. Good luck and god bless!

The problem is your H would have to want to change, and right now he doesn't even see that he was wrong in any way. I'm afraid he will always hold this over your head, giving him the power to treat you like the dirt under his shoe. He appears to enjoy keeping you down like some groveling dog. It disturbs me... I hate hearing all the pain in your posts. You made mistakes, but you are not the devil incarnate! You have been working very hard to discover where you went wrong and to better yourself. Your H seems to want to wallow in self pity, like the whole world has done him wrong.

I hate to sound like such a pessimist, he's just so mean to you, I can't take it...

Indeed, I do worry about him always holding this over my head. I'm trying so hard not to let him walk on me, and to not let him chip away at my self-esteem or self-respect. I've even had to tell him sometimes, "No, I won't do that, I have more self-respect than that," or "No, I can't do that, I think I deserve better treatment than that."

One very positive thing, today as he was leaving, he stopped and turned around to kiss me before he left! HE did! Instead of me reaching out to him. Big step I'd say.

I've spent so much time with him this week. He's even been concerned about how I'm doing through all of this.

The man I fell in love with is peeking out, and giving me newfound hope I must say. But I will keep my optimism guarded.

Jen

Jen:

"A large part of my immense guilt is the fact that I had finally (or so I thought) reached a point where I was close to telling my H, treat me well, or I don't want to be around you at all. I was starting to feel like I could walk away from him. Being with him again, and with his family again makes me question how I ever thought like that. BUT I have realized many things about him that I can't live with:"

But what you listed is exactly "treat me well, or I don't want to be around you at all." And there's nothing wrong with this stance at all. He will BENEFIT from you taking this stand.

regards,
-Qfwfq

Qfwfq - I know you are right, it's about setting healthy boundaries.

Today is the memorial service. I have promised my H that I will be nice to both his EA women (they'll both be attending the service, albeit with other people from my H's work), even the one that I hate with a passion b/c she let my H live with her for a couple of weeks post d-day. I just hope he realizes that my stance on not being willing to allow him to continue his friendship with her if we get back together still stands (but I of course did not mention this at this time). O also hope she doesn't expect me to be like her best friend today. I'll be nice to her if our paths cross, but I can't hang out with her, that's for sure.

Something I am sort of looking forward to today is the fact that several of my H's friends that he cut off contact with post d-day will be attending the service, and my H will be forced to see that they still care about him a great deal, even if my H feels like they "chose me" over him. I've told him so many times that is just not the case, that I just continued contact with them, and he chose not to.

If you read this, prayers for my H and his family to have the strength to get through today would be greatly appreciated.

Jen