I found my WS who was AWOL.

He says we need to separate! He says staying at home is making him angrier. He feels vindictive. He does not believe my changes will be longlasting. He does not know how much of it was me or how much of it was him leading to the A. He felt that he had no other choice; was looking out just for himself to cure his depression. He is talking more honestly and openly than ever. Was it the time away from me ? Is he correct that distance will be better?

I said to him that I love him and want to us to work on rebuilding our marriage rather than separating. I said that we can make a better marriage. He still believes that this is my "deathbed confession". Its like he wants ME TO AGREE to the separation in order for him to go through with it.

Should I agree to it and if I do should I do a PLAN B? So far, right this minute, I'm still in PLAN A. Should I call him back while he willing to talk?

HELP!!!!!

<small>[ January 28, 2003, 09:48 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

Mimi..how educated on A's is your H? Has he been on this site, read any of the books, been in counseling with SH or another MC or IC?

Sounds like he is still in fog..big time. He's also in denial..would rather blame you...keeps him from facing the horribleness of what he's done.

If he's not very educated maybe you can at least ask him to visit this site first or go to at least one session with SH. You've been together a long time..you owe each other something more then this!

Do your children know? They are old enough to have an oppion if they know...what do they think?

How badly do you want to save your M?

If he won't do any of above at least print out some the messages in here from other FWS's who've expended the effort and have been happy.

Asking him to talk about all the problems...write them down together..his issues, your issues, M issues, etc. Then see if you can come up with a plan and timeline that you jointly agree on (POJA). Walking away without full effort seems like such a waste after all those years.

Ask him how he plans on having an happy life with or without you if these problems/issues never get addressed. All M's require the MB principles to survive, not just ones with A's. Any relationship he has with OW or future OW (once he's single) will all be affected.

Best Wishes!

Mimi- I am so sorry to hear how your WS is talking about things at this point.

When he says separation, what exactly does he mean / want? Does he want to move out? (Has he already done so - you say he was AWOL?)

My H demanded separation. We started with us sleeping in separate bedrooms, on separate floors of our house. It eventually led to me moving out, which I wish I hadn't done.

I don't have any magic answers, but clarify with your H what exactly he feels separation means, and what he thinks it will accomplish, before you agree to anything.

If he's being so brutally honest with you, don't hesitate to be honest with him.

And if you can get him to read SAA or anything on this site, that would be a bonus, but I'm betting he's so deep in the fog that he's closed to that idea.

Take care Mimi, I'll say a prayer for you,

Jen

I just talked to him again. I think he HEARD the importance of not giving up on our marriage.

He said that I need to "think and think and write down and write down all the pain that he has suffered over the past 3 to 4 years.

My question is what do I focus on in our discussion tonignt? I like the idea of the POJA.
I don't want to come off as begging and pleading but I do want to fight his fog if possible.

mimi1254:
Call him ... do not talk about R at all, only concentrate on him, about his well being. If he try to argue with you about his separation ... let him know that is his wish not yours. Don't LB ...

-rh-

Red hat:

Glad you are here. I called him before I read your note. As I noted above, he focused on the pain that he has gone through over the past few years. He always want to talk about the relationship whenever he talks. Does not want to acknowledge the significance of the A. Today he did state that he used the A as a cure for depression, was looking out for #1, felt "backed into the wall", had to do something for comfort. He never talks as if he wants to leave to be with her. He states that he does not want a divorce.
He feels he "needs to get away" to get rid of his anger about the past. I think this has gone on for a long time and its hard to end it. It brings so much of a relief for his problems; he has job problems and is estranged from his parents and these issues cause him pain.

He responded positively to the thought of not giving up on such a long marriage. He said "you're right, it's not like we're a young couple starting off". I think she's giving him pressure to leave and he doesn't know how to not at least give it a try for her.

Another important point is he wants me to agree that the separation is a good idea so that he does not have to feel like a bad guy. It is messing him up that I am not being agreeable.

However, do I want him if he does not want to be with me? Will he just be miserable and angry that if I don't let him free for awhile? However, I know I freeing him up to be with her without guilt or complications. I can see that's why he's so ready to leave after D-Day.

I'm a mess and confused. Help!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mimi1254:
<strong>I just talked to him again. I think he HEARD the importance of not giving up on our marriage.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good job, this is very important.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>He said that I need to "think and think and write down and write down all the pain that he has suffered over the past 3 to 4 years. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You should ask him .... also you should write from your point of view ans see if it is a match.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>My question is what do I focus on in our discussion tonignt? I like the idea of the POJA.
I don't want to come off as begging and pleading but I do want to fight his fog if possible.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do not beleive you are at the point to POJA yet, while WS is in the fog WS doesn't have memory at all. You should focus on how he will take care of himself in separation. However he will bring back again discussion on why he has to move out. DO NOT LB read again the list of LB ... make sure you push back w/o LB about his fog. Reverse babble if you have to.

Meanwhile, you should write down the excuses that he told you over and over again. He will bring it up again tonight, gurantee. Post her if you have to, Orchid might be able to help you with reverse babble.

One last thing. Please take this under percautions ... Usually when WH moved out evenif you didn't LB , it is because OW is back in the picture or WH hopes it would make it easier for him to conduct A.

-rh-

Up to the point that he went AWOL this weekend I was doing so well with my PLAN A. When he got away from me and had more time to TALK to her this weekend she got to him. I wonder what she says that pulls him back in so easily? That's what scares me about separation. She can get to him when I'm not around. You see him just talking to me today pulls him back into me. It's like he tries to avoid me in order to not be attracted to me.

Red Hat:

Tell me more about asking how he will take care of himself during the separation. I know the answer to this she will be able to come in and play "wife", cooking for him, etc. That's what he likes about staying home now-domestic support is one of the major needs that I am meeting now. The only way she must meeting SF more than me is her willingness to do risque things that I would not do. He continues to be attracted to me.

Yes. I agree. The main reason I think that he wants separation is to continue the A without complications. He can't seem to give it up.

Plus I'm thinking that he feels she needs him more than I do. He has responded positively to me saying that I need him. She is young, doesn't seem to have anybody but him and he doesn't know how to deal with his guilt about using her to meet his needs.

I'm planning to fight as hard as I can for my marriage though. I almost feel like giving up. He is wearing me down.

<small>[ January 27, 2003, 11:14 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mimi1254:
<strong>Up to the point that he went AWOL this weekend I was doing so well with my PLAN A. When he got away from me and had more time to TALK to her this weekend she got to him. I wonder what she says that pulls him back in so easily? That's what scares me about separation. She can get to him when I'm not around. You see him just talking to me today pulls him back into me. It's like he tries to avoid me in order to not be attracted to me.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeap, it is all about OW. Your WH is following alien scripts ... It is all about ENs, hon. There is (are) EN(s) that OW is very good in fillin it. The hint would come out from his mouth, his complaints. I forgot to ask who know about his A ... family members ? family freinds ?.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Tell me more about how he will take care of himself during the separation. I know the answer to this she will be able to come in and play "wife", cooking for him, etc. That's what he likes about staying home now-domestic support is one of the major needs that I am meeting now. The only way she must meeting SF more than me is her willingness to do risque things that I would not do. He continues to be attracted to me.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You should aks him as a loving, concern and good wife should. This way let him lies to his teeth about OW. This separation is a test for OW, how good she could fillin dosmetic support and physical attractiveness. How young is OW ?, compare to yours ?. What do you know about OW ?.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Plus I'm thinking that he feels she needs him more than I do. He has responded positively to me saying that I need him. She is young, doesn't seem to have anybody but him and he doesn't know how to deal with his guilt about using her to meet his needs.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OW is following tow script, play a victim. You should play a needy wife that need his H to help around as a man in the house. Even you know how to change a light bulb, get him to rescue you and let OW LB to him. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I'm planning to fight as hard as I can for my marriage though. I almost feel like giving up. He is wearing me down.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't give up you still have a big chance here. The only one other thing that you should do is reverse babble on his excuses. What I mean is that for his legit complaint, you plan A him by reminding him that you have change it. However for fogese you should not keep in silent, specially when WH repeated over and over. Silent is taken as agreement. You have to reversed babble. e.g. WH:"I have this A because I am depressed". BS:"Hmm ... The last time I read on medical journal, A is not a treatment for depression. The lists includes staying with your famliy to get support, get AD medications and get conseling, this is new to me. So If I am depressed because my H is not around home and I have no body to talk to or to hold my hand ... I could have A to help me out ?." That answer will shut him up, but don't LB !. You put it as you are the confused one and get his line of thinking to make him think.

-rh-

TOW is young, not more than 30, young enough to be his daughter. She has a desperate, needy and helpless look. She wears miniskirts even often wears her hair in a ponytail, looking like a teenager. Not marriage material for him but lots of FUN!!! He's not going to be proud of bringing her out in public. Will tarnish his image.

His best friends know and are not supportive of his A or his leaving the family.

He is EXTREMELY ANGRY at my family. My mother recently threatened to tell his boss about the A when he said he was going to leave right after D-Day.

In terms of vulnerability, I happen to know that TOW had a break-in last week probably called him teary, scared. I was thinking of telling him that we need a new alarm on the house if he leaves, telling him I will be scared without him there. This is true.

Do I let him know that I know he's going to test the waters with her? Do I tell him about PLAN B if he proceeds with separation?

Really, does it sound like to you that he will proceed or did she just get to him over the weekend somehow.

<small>[ January 27, 2003, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

When he says we need to separate, you can answer- I love you and I won't leave you. If you need to leave me, that is YOUR choice and I can't stop you. I don't believe the best way for us to solve our problems is by being apart. I know the times we are going through are hard for us right now.

You can also ask him to go to MC, in person or with Steve. You can say, Moving out is a big decision. We've been married for a long time. Shouldn't we at least get some counseling, if only to figure out how to handle this separation and how to help our children through it?
Pitch it as getting help for yourself. "I know I've caused you pain in the past- I want to avoid that. I believe that counseling could help us with that.
Tell him you feel it's important that you understand his point of view, and the counselor can help you with that.

Then let him pursue his plans for separation- and ignore them until he is literally out the door. Continue your plan A as best you can. If you feel it's getting to you a bit, back off a little- go and do something by yourself. Don't cling to him.

He may end up moving out- you can't stop him. But don't bless him. He will have to do his own legwork.

When is your next appointment with Steve?

The alarm thing is a good idea. Don't accuse him of moving in with OW at this point- not directly.

I'll ask it again- isn't this young OW going to want kids someday? You can allude to this carefully.

As in, "I know you've been really hurt by our family situation in the last few years. I guess you want to start over again with OW, and create a new family without these problems. I'm trying to understand it, but it does hurt. I was looking forward to spending time with you and celebrating our achievements now that the kids are almost grown and we don't have that pressure on us."

He may say, But I've had a vasectomy.

And you can say, Young women usually want to have children eventually. I suppose the two of you will adopt if you can't reverse the vasectomy.

He may say, she doesn't want children.

You say, hmmmm women are known to change their minds over the years. (and leave it at that)

Don't ask him what his decision is, or to talk about the A, as in what's going on.

My WH also did not want to talk about the A. You have to bring the stuff up carefully to get a response. But you can point stuff out.

THANKS, Espoir,

I wrote down your statement "I love you and won't leave you... to refer to. I needed some basic framework.

I can't get him to do the counseling. He seems so deep into this relationship. I guess because it's gone on for such a long time and he feels like he owes her because she was so comforting to him and the past and I guess she still knows how to comfort him. He has a wall up to me so I can't help him. He sees my help as control. Thus, the animosity.

Steve agreed to talk to me for 5 minutes today. I have another appt. with him for tomorrow. I'll fill you in on what he says.

Thanks for being there, all of you.

You understand my sadness today. I feel hopeless and desperate. I want to beg him not to leave me!! I want to say to him, How do you think I can live without you? I've been with you my whole life. You are my life. I don't know how we got so off-track. Can't I say any of this???

<small>[ January 27, 2003, 12:18 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

I found out that she has a daughter but she does not have cusody of her. I have been hinting about the children thing, having discussions about how hard it is to step-parent.

I think he likes it that she must have chosen not to have her daughter. I also am predicting that she says stuff like it will be "Just You and Me" all the time. Remember, he believes that I put the children first over him. The low priority she gives her daughter must be attractive. I would predict since her love bank gets so high she probably insists that she would never have kids because she knows how much attention he needs.

<small>[ January 27, 2003, 12:24 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

I do not beleive you should be anywhere close to plan B at all ... could your tell me what are your actions in plan A ?. Have you have all the issues covered ?. About S3X, I am a firm believer that EVERYTHING GOES behind the close door in M. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> Of course this is from the martian's prospective.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>....He's not going to be proud of bringing her out in public. Will tarnish his image.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just another point of view ... He might be proud to bring his throphy.

The A is in the day light ... good !. Since the LB wil come o people around WH and not from you. Just sit and watch and don't tell anyone what to do or asking any favor.

About OW ... what do you think your H is fillin ?. Fatherly figure or fatherly wallet $$$ ?. Do you know her name and address or phone# under her name ?. You could pay $99.00 to do a background check on her. I would recomended it. Also the break in, you should ask your H put R.O. You have a real need and let him be the knight of the tainted armor <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> Also express your fear and what if OW come to your home and kill you, who is going to defend you ?.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>
Do I let him know that I know he's going to test the waters with her? Do I tell him about PLAN B if he proceeds with separation?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nope to both. Both are LB'ed. First one, you are djugmental on him, you should putting $ in LB$. You should play along with him and show confident in him. Let him have the guilt when he see OW. Second one, this is ultimatum to him, an LB. Plan B is about you not him and let alone about what is he going to do. You should plan A you bootie off, fill his admiration need.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Really, does it sound like to you that he will proceed or did she just get to him over the weekend somehow.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Time will tell. But it look like he is testing the water, let him. He will figure out what he is missing ... a young ho usually is very selfish, don't know how to do house work or willing to do.

Next time when WH calls and wants to talk R and open up ... ask him what does he think that OW is looking in him ?.

-rh-

PS: Whatch out for you family finance ...

<small>[ January 27, 2003, 12:33 PM: Message edited by: redhat ]</small>

Red hat:
What were you saying about the breakin? I didn't understand the abbreviations?

Do I go ahead and talk about the A tonignt? He only wants to talk about the part I played in leading him into an A.

You know what's weird guys:

In early November, before D-Day, before I knew about MB, I told my WS that I suspected an A and was going to a lawyer that very day. That produced a real turn about during which he said he knew what he is doing is "wrong" and would I be willing to stand by him no matter what happens, etc. He gave me a wonderful birthday present and was sweet. Now since D-Day he has started to act crumby and is seldom honest. What do you think this pattern means?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mimi1254:
<strong>In terms of vulnerability, I happen to know that TOW had a break-in last week probably called him teary, scared. I was thinking of telling him that we need a new alarm on the house if he leaves, telling him I will be scared without him there. This is true</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You said it ... about the breakin. I would even ask H if it is a good idea to put RO on her to stay out from the house and you. This way anything happen to you the police will get to her quickly.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Do I go ahead and talk about the A tonignt? He only wants to talk about the part I played in leading him into an A.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, talk to him but let him bring up the R talk. Plan A !. Listen and take notes if you have too. Appologized on the real issues and tell him what you had done in plan A to mitigate this and tell him that you are willing and capable fo change the one that you has not address it yet. For the excuse ... do reverse babble or just acknowledge that you hear him. You could tell him w/ respect that you disagree but you are listening.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> ... Now since D-Day he has started to act crumby and is seldom honest. What do you think this pattern means?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Buckle up lady, you are in the long ride. The past 3 weeks is just the beginning. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> . You might to do plan B but not right now, wait until SH told you to do it.

-rh-

I just had a BRIEF session with Steve Harley:

He recommended that I get an understanding from my WS' point of view of "What is the purpose of a separation?" If he says to "sort things out" or to get "rid of anger", Steve says to go ahead and give my blessing only if he agrees to not see the OW during this time. Steve says that he may agree to this and be lying but I still would have made my point clear. Sounds like stating a BOUNDARY right?

In other words, there is really no good reason for the separation at this point. The real reason for the request,it seems, according to Steve is for continuation of the addiction. He sees my WS as out of control and wanting to blame someone else. Also he says my WS is trying to solve our issues in a self-serving way through conflict avoidance, not working on the problems. That's what addicts do.

He wants me to keep working my PLAN whether he decides to stick around or not. Didn't mention anything about PLAN B. He will tell me how to proceed next based on my conversation with him tonight.

He wants me to also tell him that he needs to take responsibility for his actions. Steve says to reiterate with him that "INFIDELITY IS BAD ALL THE TIME".

Any further thoughts or suggestions on this are welcomed.

Didn't mention anything about PLAN B.
Because it has only been 4 weeks since d-day. Plan B works best when preceded by a a very good Plan A. Four weeks is not much time to demonstrate this.

Keep doing what you are doing.

Hi Chris:
Do you have any thoughts about the wording of my discussion with my WS tonight? Why do you think wanting to have this separation discussion again? The OW did a good job of meeting ENs this weekend right?

Guys:
Is it ever alright to come right and ask What does she do that I don't do? I'm tempted.