I was discussing this last night with a good friend and need some input on this subject. A little history for those who may not be familiar---I have been here a long time, since June 2000. My H had a very intense PA/EA that started in Jan 00, and ended in Nov 02. Well, at least I think it's ended. I recently found evidence that he's been talking to OW1. During this time, there's for sure been OW2 (ONS), and possibly more. At a minimum, there's more women that he's confided in about inappropriate things.

H says that he wants our marriage, and has made some changes in his behaviors recently. The issue is with me at this point. My heart has been carved out, bit by bit, and I am not sure I can ever give it back to him. I have asked repeatedly that he join me in counseling, when he refuses that, I've asked what his plan is. He doesn't know. I taped the Dr Phil infidelity show and asked that he at least watch that, in hopes of something hitting home that we need help to get through it. That was about a month ago, and he still hasn't watched it even though he said he would.

I am not sure how to break down the barriers and open my heart back to him, if he won't participate in counseling. We may be OK for awhile, but if we never deal with the root issues, it will happen again in the future. He says that he's dealt with the "whys" of his affairs and that they aren't issues any longer. But, he shows no outward signs of remorse or guilt, and has never acknowledged or validated how much he's hurt me. I feel that I am at a crossroads and don't know which way to turn. I am going to begin IC again, but that will not fix our marriage issues. I honestly don't know how our marriage can ever improve if we don't get help. If it's not going to improve, I am at the point of wanting to go our seperate ways. It is very painful for me to even think of that as an option, as it is what I fought very hard to avoid. But, I know that I cannot continue like this either. We both deserve happiness, and we are far from it in the current status of our marriage.

Hurtinil,
You've been in this a long time, and your H's behavior hasn't changed much.

The only thing I can think of is, have you told him that you are considering separation?

If he is of the mind-set that he just wants it to all go away, for you to drop the issues, maybe the seriousness of looming separation will cause him to view it differently. It may not.

You say he wants the marriage, and has made some changes...of what kind? Could they be considered baby steps? If he would reassure you, speak of remorse, would that be enough?

I think you going to an IC is fine, if the A was ongoing to 11/02, you've got some grief to work on.

If you communicate clearly to him that unless you see some effort from him, you are ready to quit and he still doesn't put forth any effort...you've got the choice, is dwelling in the same house enough or do you want to separate, possibly Plan B or divorce? If you've been really clear, maybe that is already where you are, but I'd advise one more attempt, if you can.

Thanks Lor! I was hoping you'd reply--your advice is always great!!

How have his behaviors changed? He's much more in tune with our kids, helps out around the house more than he ever has with cooking, shopping, etc. Basically is an active part of the family whereas when his A was going full steam, he wasn't at all. Have things changed towards me? Yes, but I'm at the point of not wanting it unless I get the full package---remorse and a plan to get back on track. I'm not asking for him to apologize daily or anything like that, but validation of my feelings when I'm having a hard time or dealing with a trigger would help tremendously. He blows it off and makes me feel like I'm the one with the problems, and he doesn't have anything to do with it.

I have told him that I cannot live this way, but I've said that for a long time and never followed through with it, so that's where I have messed up. I know that once I put that on the table, I have to follow through. I don't think that he'll move out, so it's most likely going to take filing for D. Will it wake him up? I don't know. He may use it as his escape and never look back.

I've communicated that I need to see effort from him, and there has been some, but it's all on his terms. To him, buying gifts, going out for dinner, and calling when he's out of town is as far as the effort needs to go. There is no true emotional intimacy between us, and that is what counseling will help with. He argues the point that counseling hasn't helped in the past, so why would it now. Well, he was in a intense A at the time, so of course it's not going to help.

So, how do I bring up these things without it getting confrontational and heated. It never fails that when anything regarding his A's is talked about, it is a major blow out.

BTW, what part of your state do you live in? I'm going to be on the eastern border this summer visiting my brother. Are you anywhere close to there??

Hurtinil,
You're welcome. I'm slowly sliding into lurker mode, but still around.

The reconciliation I finally had with my H came about so differently than many here, it was a case of everything getting increasingly worse before it got better. By the time he moved back in the last time, he'd spent 4-5 months putting himself back together--no OW, no bars, to me--accountability, trustworthy action, his Plan A, and I think that did make a huge difference. But I sure as heck couldn't make that happen the first 6 reconciliations (18+ months)! So, I understand your frustration.

When I asked for ENs then, my H took it as pressure, and that I wouldn't ever get over it, and that our marriage would never work. No amount of remorse would be enough remorse. Any reminder of the A (even though it was often ongoing, though I didn't know it) was a reminder of his failure.

I had to let go, agree with him that it wouldn't work, in fact served the D papers, though I don't recommend doing that unless you do want a divorce, the divorce becoming final is a much more likely result than reconciliation.

So, right now, you have your H in your house and the affairs ended. Once that would have seemd good to you, but it isn't enough, is it.

Will he do the ENQ? Have you? It sounds like he's trying to meet needs (gifts, domestic support), but not actually meeting the needs you need to have met (guessing communication, attention, maybe affection?).

The more concrete you can be with what you need him to do, the better. He doesn't sound like he's good at guessing <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> .

What represents emotional intimacy for you, beside willingness to go to a counselor? Would trying to spend the 15 hours a week together help? A date night, some time where his attention is on you and there's some communication going on?

You are in early days of true recovery--since the A ended. My H did express remorse and guilt, so I don't know what one does if that isn't present. But I do know talking about triggers and my sadness was not a good for my H. And, even my counselor asked me, how much remorse is enough remorse? Did I want to rebuild or keep wallowing around in the rubble?

Your H's actions caused you to have triggers, but he can't change his past actions, that he did them is unchangeable. But, your reactions/triggers belong to you, you are the one who has them and the only one who can learn to control them. Feeling sad because you pass, say a restaurant or a specific date, won't be helped particularly by calling him an cheating SOB, right? Like you, some of my bad anniversaries were 3 years running, 3 years deep. My God, if every year I fell apart even on the 7 separation dates, not to mention the 3-4 D days, our life would be hell.

You have every right to grieve and be sad, I'm not saying you don't, but trying to say it is a process of coping...at some point, and maybe not for months yet, you will, for your own mental & spiritual health, put this in the past and leave there.

So, on this one point, your H is correct, he can't deal with it for you. He's also not at this point effectively helping you, but I'm wondering if he knows how.

Besides spending huge amounts of time together, 2 things we did that I think were effective were:
1) Instead of talking about the trigger, which brings up the affair and makes my H feel like he failed me, is still failing me, I ask for a hug and tell him I love him. He'll always hug me back, and tell me he loves me. And deep down, that is the reassurance I want. I did have to learn that reassurance is better than a fight...but then, I was a fighter.

2) We agree to start each day fresh. Some days were bad days, whether it was a trigger, a mood, PMS, he didn't call me/I couldn't reach him, I'd pick a fight. We wake up in the morning, apologize and restart our efforts. This might be more meaningful to me, because of the separations and how many times my H actually did walk out and not come home for days/weeks/months. But his not walking out in a confrontation was a huge development. One day about 4 months into recovery, I fell apart and he reminded me that he was with me every morning and every night--that was an effort I was not even counting.

Which leads me to this thought...effort from the WS doesn't always look like the effort of the BS, but it doesn't mean that it isn't real effort. No contact or inappropriate behavior can be a huge effort for the WS that, unless they fail, the BS doesn't recognize. For my H, no contact & not walking out were daily things for him.

Is it possible your H is putting forth effort you don't recognize?

And, lastly, I went to IC probably more times than MC. I found it tremendously valuable. My H did join me, but we both had IC in addition to MC.

You can separate, you have good reasons, but the likelihood of reconciling is lessened. Separation doesn't always lead to divorce, but I view it as a step away from the marriage, and separation tends not to increase intimacy, however, I did find that when my H came over, his time was more intentional. He meant to be there and sometimes we interacted more while separated than we did during our failed reconciliations.

Or...We could just whack your H with the MB cyber-frying pan <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> .

There isn't an easy step from where you are {{{{{{{{{{{{{hurtinil}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}.

Lor, I want to sincerely thank you for the time you spent replying once again. There is so much information to think about, and coming from you, I take it all to heart!

How much effort is enough? That's a question I ask myself all the time. A year ago, what he's doing now would have probably been enough for me to jump back in with both feet. Now, it's not. He's still communicating with OW1, and even if it's "innocent", they are still keeping the flame alive, even if it's flickering. I asked him early in January when we were talking about things, and he lied to my face. He told her that he hadn't been in contact with her, but I have proof otherwise. So, how many more things isn't he being honest about?

I know that I need to put it in the past, and am trying to do that. It's difficult though, when I know he's still talking to her, even if it's infrequently. He is traveling a lot for work now, so I have no clue how much he's really talking to her when he's not home.

The other thing is the lack of remorse. In August, I did get an ecard from him apologizing for what he had done. At the time, it meant the world to me, and I let him know how much I appreciated it. But, he was back talking to her within the month, and had seen her again a few weeks later. So, it doesn't mean anything anymore, and I am left feeling like it was simply an appeasement and he didn't really mean the words. I had asked my therapist at one point what she thought our chances for a full reconciliation were. At that point, she told me that if he wasn't truly sorry and remorseful, that the chances weren't great. If he's not sorry and doesn't realize the damage he's caused, how can I ever be assured it won't happen again?

EN Questionnaire? Yes, we both did them a long time ago. We really need to do them again, as I think some things have probably changed. But, he won't. Says that they aren't an accurate portrayal of a marriage. He feels that anything that is therapy related (books, seminars, etc) is too clinical, and that's not how real love should be. I guess that's where I struggle---how can we really put things back together if we don't do the work that goes along with it? Granted, I need to do the work on myself, but I can't do all the work on the marriage---it's got to be both of us or it won't work.

But the $64,000 question---is the affair over if they're still talking? I have a feeling that he thinks that since she moved back to her home state that it's safe to talk to her now. I guess the decision I have to make is whether or not any contact with her is a dealbreaker. And if it is, what I'm going to do about it.

So, where's that frying pan???

Once again Lor, I sincerely thank you for your advice!!!