Well, I finally did tell my W that I'd seen her in a convertible with another man. I described how I was walking along near the center of town one day when I saw this, and how I saw her get out of this guy's convertible and walk back to her own car. Guess what folks? She comes back with, "I don't know anybody with a white convertible, male or female." (I expected her to say something like that he was just a friend.) So now the official party line (= hers) is that it wasn't her I saw, it must have been somebody else who just happened to look exactly like her and get into a car exactly like hers (maybe her evil twin, who knows?!) She can make a good case for this, because I was a couple of hundred yards away when I saw them. But I also know what she looks like and I know what her car looks like....<P>We have our couples counseling session day after tomorrow and boy do I know I'm going to get it for this. (I have a root canal scheduled the day after that and I can tell you, they're very similar experiences!) I'll be told that I should have told her right away and asked her if it was her (well, I didn't because I knew that she'd deny it and I was right), that I have major issues of trust left over from my previous marriage, that I have a problem with jealousy, blah, blah, blah and yadda, yadda. Moreover, I also KNOW that our dorky couples counselor is going to side with her as usual and put everything back on my head. And if I say that I think she's lying -- I do think so but probably WON'T say so because that wil get me into even MORE hot water -- I'll get it with both barrells for that.<P>But, you know, in a way, I'm glad I told my W what I'd seen. For one thing, I KNOW it was her, because I know for CERTAIN that it was her car she got into. (What I DIDN'T tell my W was that I was snooping when this happened and had previously checked the plates on her car and staked it out. I made out like I just happened to be walking along on an errand.) So I know that she's lying about the incident. And at least she knows for certain that I did see her with this guy and so the whole issue of her infidelity is finally out on the table. I know she'll continue to deny it, but at least she knows that I know. Maybe a LITTLE guilt will begin to seep in around the edges? And at least we're forced now to bring this issue up in counseling, even though I know it's just going to used as a stick to beat me with for my lack of trust and my jealousy.<P>But I keep coming back for more! I'm telling you, being married to this woman is is like going 15 rounds the verbal heavyweight champ of the world. I'm amazed I'm even still on my feet with this one, but I am still standing. (Let's hear those cheers, folks!) Just call me "Rocky," I guess.<P>Ain't life wonderful? Well, folks, that's confrontation! (And thanks everyone here who kept after me to do this!)<P>--Wex

Here's what I would do. I would start out the session with just letting her rant at you in front of the counselor for a while. Then say "I'm very sorry, dear, I am quite sure I saw you get out of a white convertible downtown." Then she can recount her side of the story again, and say how you were seeing things. Then you can say, "but dear, I had seen the car before I saw you. Whoever it was that I saw, they got in to your car and drove away. I checked the license plate." Then get up and leave. Your marriage will probably end right there but I don't see what choice you have, other than to live in hell on your knees while your wife runs around.<P>You better make sure you have your facts straight though. If you didn't see what you think you saw, she is going to think you are crazy and that's the end of it for sure.<P>The other thing you do is hire a private investigator, and have him waiting to tail her once she leaves the counseling session. After this episode she will be very upset. So, if she is seeing someone, she will see him immediately. The PI will get the rest of the photos you need. These will be helpful in case there are any problems in court.<P>Alternatively you could try Dr. Harley's Plan A, Plan B approach, in which case you made a love buster. Personally I'm not sure it's any more effective than my dad's hardball approach: "Get the locks changed and leave her clothes in the driveway." But don't do that one until you have the photos for sure.<BR>

Or, start the counseling session off with pleasantries, then invite your wife to rant and rave on you about your accusations.<P>And then ask her, in front of the counselor, that if you showed her irreputable proof - what would she do, and what does she want?<P>Act very confident and concerned. And then tell her that you love her and want to work past her infidelity, but you want her to stop her affair, matter of factly.<P>Let her rant and rave and be the lunatic in front of the counselor. Let the counselor think for itself. Who cares what the counselor really thinks. As long as the counselor is able to facilitate REAL communication, that is the main thing.

Rocky, <P>Arrrgggghhhhh! That's not the response I was hoping you would get from her. Perhaps you are in a Twilight Zone episode?<P>You are right though, at least it is out in the open. At least she knows that you know. It does feel better to have it out in the open, doesn't it? Now, go take your beating like a man. Listen to the dork and/or Apollo Creed. Take in all the blah, blah, blah and the yada, yada, yada. take the punches too. Whether or not she wants to lie about it, your conscience is clear. Are you really, really, really, sure it was her? just checking.<P>Let us know how the counseling goes. You know, Rocky did eventually pull it out. We are in your corner and we have plenty of smelling salt, bandages, and even a razor to cut ya if we have to. You'll make it!!!<P>SHA<p>[This message has been edited by Sir Hurts Alot (edited September 13, 1999).]

Wex, my buddy! I have not conversed with you for ages. Sorry to hear that things are just about the same for you as before. You wife wouldn't be my husband's alter ego by chance, would she? The convertible story is similar to my condom story. I thought H would cave, but he first retorted with "Oh, so now you're counting condoms, are you?" Realize the stalling tactics are just a ruse to give them time to think of something in their head! <P>Wex, Wex, Wex, you should know by now that you will never get the answer you are expecting. I have tried ALL of it, and he still came up with a bunch of stories. Pathetic at times, but still stories.<P>What's up with your counsellor? Why is she making you out to be the bad guy? Our counsellor always listens to both sides of our stories, but, she has caught H in a few lies, and told him immediately about it. She goes back to her laptop computer for reference, and tells him that on such and such day, he said this and that. Then he gets really frustrated, but she still demands an explanation. A couple of times I felt so sorry for him (yeah, I'm nuts) that I tried to help him out, and she told me to be quiet, because he didn't help me when I was in the hot seat!!<P>I'll bet you played the scene out in your mind 100 times. You would confront her about the car, and she would stumble and stutter, and then cave, and then confess, and beg for your forgiveness. NOT! It really galls ya, when you think you have them dead to rights, and they still deny.<P>Our counsellor is pretty good, but she has some of the traits your's does. She insists a lot of the trust issues I have stem from my childhood. Dad cheating, physical abuse, broken promises, etc. When she gets on that, I have to tell her that it is because of my childhood that I REFUSED to see the signs. My mom was always accusing my dad of cheating (with good reasons) and I swore that when I grew up, I would not be like my mom. Apparently, that is why I have a big problem with confrontation. Sounds you have the same problem. You sit on evidence for so long, before you get up the nerve to hear the truth, and then you don't get it anyway.<P>Maybe, at the counselling session, you could do what I did. H kept denying that he had little pow wows and whispering sessions in the kitchen with my sister. He must have denied to her at least 5 times. Only when I threatened to bring my son and my daughter in law into the office to tell what they saw, did he admit that I was right, but, he didn't remember what was said! Is there any way you can say that you were with someone else at the time, and if need be, you will bring them in to verify your story? It would have to be someone she doesn't know, but it might be worth a try. You just might get the truth, and if so, hope you are prepared for it. Let us know what happens. Take care.<P>Success story (why me)<P>------------------<BR><BR>SUCCESS STORY<P>

oh Wex,<BR> I just don't know what to say, you know sometimes they will deny till the cows come home, (hey wait I am home !!! lol) , you just have to be ready to execpt that. Heck I have heard of people who were caught "in the act", who swore their spouse "saw it all wrong". I hope she wakes up soon Wex I really do. You deserve to be loved and to have the one you love be honest with you.<P>------------------<BR>Just call me - Deb<BR>------------------------<BR>The only day I can do anything about is today, yesterday is gone, tomorrow is not yet mine.<P>

Hey Wex<BR>Do you feel like you have just a little more of an edge now? This game sucks. Just wanted to say hi and keep it up.<BR>My H is into the secret mode again. Wondering if I am up to this round.<BR>Been meaning to e-mail my evil ideas to you but it's been pretty touchy around here.<p>[This message has been edited by wasstubborn (edited September 13, 1999).]

Wex,<P>Your situation parallels mine of several months ago. I found my wife's car parked in the driveway of the OM, didn't come home till after midnight, yet denied the whole thing. And then had the nerve to rail against me for my suspicious paranoia and snooping around - tried to kick me out of the house for putting her under my thumb! It is just a fact that infidelity introduces insanity into a woman's soul (man's too for that matter). Black becomes white, wrong becomes right. Everything is turned upside down and backwards. I believe fear, shame, and guilt (a potent cocktail if ever there was one) fuel the defensive, angry, attacking denial. But knowing that is of little help to you or me! Perhaps it helps to know that as long as the affair is going on there can be no reconciliation. The two are oil and water, mutually exclusive. Pray that the exposure would hasten the end of the affair and open the door to sanity. As long as they have their private, secret, forbidden, unreal (insane) world you don't stand a chance at breaking in. You, sadly, maddeningly, are only an unwanted, snooping intruder. You did the right thing to find out. You must know the truth and you do. It will be interesting to see what she does with it. If her heart is still somewhat for you, concerned about you, aware of what good you've brought into her life, once she cools off (away from you) she may have second thoughts and come back.<P>That has not happened for me. Divorce is imminent and unstoppable.<P>I pray it happens for you.

Wex, I am seeing this so often now I am actually surprised the experts haven't picked up on it.<P>"As long as the betrayer believes there is ANY doubt whatsoever you have irrefutable proof... they will ALWAYS lie".<P>And why wouldn't they? If you cannot provide a photo that basicially has her holding her drivers licence up to the camera with a sign saying "adulterer" on it and the other guy holding a sign saying "OM" on it there is *always* another possibility.<P>And the beauty of it is they can turn it on you... make YOU feel bad for even questioning their loyalty. Imagine what that would do... if they successfully manage to get you to feel guilty about asking then they have almost guaranteed themselves free rain of anything they want... you have been put in your box and they are free to fornicate like bunnies.<P>The horrible thing in this is that nothing is absolute in this world. Ok you saw her, you saw the car... notice how everyone else who replied to this said "are you absolutely sure??"... The reason for this is simple... because there will always be the chance you DIDN'T see what you thought you saw...<P>And that is exactly what adulterers prey on... they cling to the "maybe" and "might-have", the look for the unsureness the feast upon your kind heart in making you the bad guy for snooping around.... funny thing is that its hard to find things when there is nothing to find.<P>I have been there myself, was a betrayer at one stage, made up all sorts of stories about travelling interstate for work related training courses, explained away everything I could, covered my tracks... did all of those things... and why? Because I was getting what *I* wanted and it was WORTH all of that to get what I wanted.<P>Even when caught with what "should" have been irrefutable proof I managed to come up on the spot with a story that sounded plausable enough to convince her it was true.<P>It isn't insanity... actually its quite sane and quite logical and very easy to follow :<P>- You are caught<BR>- The marriage is over<BR>- What do you have to lose by TRYING to lie?<BR>- If the lie pans out the marriage is back on<BR>- If it doesn't you still have the OW<P>Its human behaviour, its natural... that doesn't mean its excusable... but people out there constantly try to sheild themselves from the fact that human beings are NOT nice creatures, we give only as much honestly as we are willing to give, are only as truthful as we think we need to be and despite how much we think of others we always come back to thinking of ourselves when the chips are down.<P>Honestly... have you told your partner about EVERYTHING she should know? or was there an occasion where "she doesn't need to know because it will only cause problems or hurt"... its the perfect excuse we all use... its just that only some of us admit it<P>The most GUILTY people are those who are the MOST self-righteous

Wex,<BR>I didn’t read everything in this thread (too much Beam ).<P>You gotta get something sorted out now! I’m getting ulcers waiting for you, dude!<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html</A> <BR>

Wex,<P>I hate to say this but, there are two ways to go with this. You can maintain your integrity--and quit snooping, or you can trick your W into confessing.<P>It takes an enormous amout of intestinal fortitude to stop snooping, especially when you just gotta know whats going on (I'm sure K will second this). However, tricking your W is probably easier than tracking her movements and hiring a PI. You just have to out think her. <P>Does your wife have friends? Women like to talk, and I would bet dimes to doughnuts that her friends know more about whats going on then you do. Tell your wife you got a disturbing phone call from one of her "friends" (don't name anyone), and that they are "concerned" for you AND her. Offer no more details then that. Your W will be frantic, quizzing her friends trying to find out which one leaked the info. Eventually, her lies will get the better of her. Liers lie to everyone. They're just better at it then you and I. You've just got to make sure their lies get more complicated then they can handle. Just keep adding more wood to the fire, and soon everything will blow up.<P>When my W was doing "girls night out", I told her one of her friends propositioned me. It was a lie, but it made her look at her "friends" in a different light. To this day, she still asks "which one" said it. First, she confronted everyone of them. Of course they all denied it, but I bet it made her friends look at her differently too. Now she says that her club days are over.<P>Another thing that enables cheaters to cheat, is that we all keep the "secret". We don't want our friends and family to know that our marriages are all messed up--so we don't tell. And our spouses continue their behavior (laughing at our complicity). Put the news out there and things will start to happen. It may get worse before it gets better, but it WILL GET BETTER. <P>There's my .02 cents.<P>optmist<P> <p>[This message has been edited by optimist (edited September 14, 1999).]

Is this a common thread among betrayers? I had to confront mine in front of counsellor and say that I knew about the whole thing and I still haven't run out the door so hadn't he better before I do? I told him I didn't need him to tell me how, what, where or why, that I already knew, that I was there to make things work but that if he didn't come clean nothing would. He did, it took him forever and he did it ever sooooo sloooowly! But the fact is, that I told him in a non-lbing way that enough was enough (very matter of factually!) and that we needed this in the open or we were done. It did the trick but I still hurt from having to force the issue. Good luck!<P>------------------<BR>Chick's<P>You won't see things until your ready to not be blind!<BR>

Sorry, Wex. At least she knows you know. Isn't it strange how they can continue to lie? My H now tells me I made the whole affair up -- it was all in my head. Well, I didn't make up the voice on the other end of the line when I hit redial that day....<P>My friends and family tell me it will all eventually come out. It will in your case as well. It just pisses me off I wasn't slick enough to find out who it was (or is). Now that I've left the house I have no right to snoop.

I disagree with some of the advice on this thread. I would not suggest you start lying yourself. You need to keep you nose clean, be a gentleman, and make sure you have your facts straight. Do not add anything or detract anything from the facts. And do not make up stories involving other people to get her on the defensive. This isn't a game and nobody's going to win unless everybody wins.<P>What you have so far is that you saw her get out of a man's car and in to her own. (And be sure about that.) Although this sounds very suspect, you don't really have enough to accuse her of adultery. It could have been something else. If you jump to a conclusion and it's the wrong one, it could be disastrous. You need to gather the evidence you need before you make accusations. Otherwise it'll get thrown out of "court" for "insufficient evidence" and you will look like the fool.<BR>

Hi Wexwill<P>Well I guess it's time for you to decide what you can and can not live with... At times like this some people (incl. myself) would look the other way and start convincing themselves that there still is no affair going on because the truth hurts.<P>I think you know in your heart that your W is having an affair. You want it to stop but she won't. What can you do? What do you want to do? <P>Stand tall, regain respect for yourself. You have what you were looking for and now deal with it. Tell her straight like it is. She is cheating and you won't live like this. You have been in Plan A for awhile, time for Plan B so she can see what she will be missing. Once her fantasy bubble has been broken she will wake up but as long as she thinks this issue is not been discovered then she will not be any different.<P>Good work Wexwill. You are doing what it takes to save your marriage and I admire people like you. <P>Good Luck<BR>_____________________________________________<BR>"Better to die on your feet than live on your knees"

Hi all - Wow, what a response! First of all I do want thank all of you for your support and advice. I think if it weren't for this forum I'd still be floundering around thinking that all the problems in my marriage were my fault and suspecting my W was having an affair but figuring I was just being paranoid. So I feel much better just having people to talk to who've been through this themselves.<P>First a couple of updates, then I'll respond individually. I actually told my W about seeing her in the OM's convertible when we were already several days into one of our fights, and did so out of sheer frustration and the determination not to be the one to apologize (and then have to apologize for my apology) and be the one to go the whole distance in trying to make up. And I did it because now I am ready to call it quits if my issues (such as her behavior towards me) don't get resolved. So that's where I am now. If this whole incident means that we split, then we split. I am simply sick and tired of being twisted up inside emotionally about this and not being able to do anything about it! And I am sick and tired of being called told I'm "behaving badly" because I have these issues.<P>nonplused - I'm tempted to do something like you're suggesting. But then I'd have to confess that I was snooping on her and lay myself open to all kinds of flack about THAT. I don't know. Also, I don't think it really makes any difference how positive I am that it was her I saw. (I AM positive, BTW - saw her in his car, saw her get out of his car, saw her walk back and get into HER car, KNOW it was her car because I'd previously checked the license plate and staked it out.) As to hiring a PI, I wish I could afford to. They can do this stuff a lot better than I can. I did actually check into this possibility before we were married because I suspected her and I could have afforded it, but decided against it. (Now I wish I had done it!)<P>trustntruth - that's part of the problem. She's a very sharp cookie and DOESN'T rant and rave. (in front of other people like counselors, that is - she does rant and rave at me!) She just talks in this completely reasonable-sounding, professional voice of hers that gets the counselor immediately on her side. I know that she's going to say in her very sincere way that she's not having an affair and that she doesn't know anyone with a white convertible and that she can't understand why I would have such a lack of trust in her.<P>SHA - Yeah, it's not the response I was HOPING for, but it is kind of the one I expected. Her whole strategy in our marriage has been to stay in the marriage and keep the affair going too. She thought she could make the marriage "work" by "making me behave" (i.e., SUBMIT to her and just accept the situation). Obviously, she couldn't do this and own up to her affair. So no, this doesn't really surprise me.<P>Hi why me. Great to be back in touch. Oh yeah, we all know that the cheater's credo is, deny, deny, deny, don't we? Has your H also told you that you're CRAZY for thinking he's having an affair. That's what my W usually resorts to. And she's not happy with that but has to try and get people on her SIDE too (like counselors and therapists) and get THEM to think I'm crazy too. That's what really rips me. And because she's in this business too and knows a lot of the tricks, she's also very GOOD at it, much better, I have to say, than I am at defending myself. Our counselor is male, but otherwise sounds a lot like yours, including the "hot seat" bit and spending a lot of time on childhood issues and then explaining everything in terms of them. And when I say he sides with her, I mean that, when I try to raise an issue like this, he'll go back and start exploring how I was unable to trust my mother because she wouldn't let me have my own feelings, etc., etc. and don't I see that this is what's happening here? I do have these kinds of issues around my mother, just as you do around your dad, but I thinks it's just rubbish to focus on this kind of stuff when someone is trying to raise a serious issue about the here and now. I'm glad to hear someone has had a similar experience with counseling.<P>Bozos_Deb your kind words do make me feel better, believe me. Many, many thanks for those words. I think you're right, I could probably have caught her in the act and she'd still deny it. And couldn't agree with you more about the love and honesty.<P>wasstubborn - thanks for the encouragement. Yeah, I was kicking myself for a while for having let the cat out of the bag, but now I think maybe I am in a better position. We'll see. And yeah, I think the whole trick is never to give up, no matter how bad a situation seems, and mine does, indeed, suck. But right now, I don't think I'm even thinking of revenge any more.<P>doc - I think you're right on target in your description of what happens to infidels. In order to justify their behavior, their values become reversed. That's why ones like my W blame the poor cheated-on spouse for the situation. <P>LostSoul, Chris, chicks, optimist, janie - Thanks for your responses too. I'll get back to you and continue this thread later. Gotta go now cuz my boss just arrived and he has a nasty habit of sneaking up on me and peering over my shoulder!<P>Regards and blessings,<P>--Wex

Do you have one of those Voice Activated Recorders? Maybe if you just let it hang around, then when you get into a pissing contest you can let her rant and rave and then play it for the counselor- so that the counselor can see that there are deeper communication problems and truth issues than what the counselor sees now.<P>Maybe you feel you have an unstacked deck with the counselor. <BR>

Back again to finish this up!<P>doc - A final note. Like your W, she's not the type to come back either. And I have a feeling her personal therapist has advised her to leave, essentially because I'm crazy. (Because she denies her affair to him too, and spends all her sessions telling him how terrible I am.) I am sorry to hear about your divorce, but have a feeling I may be joining you in the not too distant future. (This will be my second if it happens.)<P>LostSoul - I agree with your analysis too. But SOME betrayers do confess. What I don't understand is how someone like my W can do this. We had a very intense, very romantic courtship in which we discovered we were each others' soulmates, exchanged some very deep and binding private vows to each other and thought we were going to go out and conquer the world together. When, during our first set of couples counseling sessions, each of us was asked to rate on a scale of 1 to 10 how important our relationship was to each of us, each of us wrote down "10" without knowing what the other was writing! THAT'S what I don't understand. I could almost understand my 1st W cheating on me because we DIDN'T have that kind of relationship, but not this time. And my W is EXTREMELY self-righteous, therefore....<P>Chris - Yeah! I think that's why I finally broke down and told her about seeing her get out of the OM's car. I delayed basically because I was trying to collect more evidence before confronting her. Haven't succeeded though and really, I don't know that it would make a whole lot of difference. Yeah, I'm getting calmer in my mind about the imminent prospect of being put through the crapper.<P>optimist - thanks for the advice. Much earlier on, before the car incident, I did actually try a trick like you suggest. I sent my W a fake email purportedly from another woman who knew her but whom she didn't know and who knew about her affair. The email was in the form of advice talking from experience about how bad affairs are for you, and to cut off the affair and confess it to her husband. My W was really upset by this email, she even showed it to me and said she couldn't figure out where this woman was getting off. I probably should have used the opportunity to probe but I let it go by.<P>chick's - I'm hoping that getting my W's affair out in the open like this will have the effect of pushing her towards a confession too. On the other hand, it may (as seems likely) just push her towards leaving the marriage. And you know what? I've decided I'm cool with either outcome. But it does have to be one or the other. I think I've made it clear that our marriage can't go on the way it's been doing.<P>Janie - I'm in exactly the same situation as you. (Haven't moved out, but we're sleeping in separate beds in rooms at the opposite end of the house, and she's dressing in her office with the door closed.) It really ranks me too that I couldn't manage to find out who the OM is. That was the one piece I was looking for before confronting her, and so feel outclevered by the two of them. Probably if I started SERIOUS snooping earlier, I would have done better. By the time I did start, I'd made enough noises about the possibility of her having an affair (without actually accusing her) that I think she began to get very suspicious that I was snooping and became much more careful. (I'm positive that now, for example, he lets her off a quite a distance from her car, so that if I'm watching it, I'm not going to see her in his car again.) There is the old adage, "The truth will out." I sure hope so!<P>nonplused again - Agree with you on this and will take your advice to keep the story as factual as possible. Yes, that's all I'm going to say is that I saw her get out of another man's car and into hers and that I was very disturbed by this. You're right, riding around in someone's car doesn't equal adultery and I need to keep that in mind when talking about it, even though I know in bones that it does. I think I already look like a fool, unfortunately. I'm not giving up the snooping, though!<P>toronto - Thanks for the well wishes. What you say is very true. My W is a very difficult woman for a man to stand tall around, as she keeps cutting him down. And BTW, this has been the experience of other men she's been in long-term relationships with. She's cheated on them too, and then blamed the breakup of the relationship on their character flaws. Her last guy was suspicious as hell that she was having an affair, and with just cause too. <P>trustntruth again - In fact, I once did hide a voice-activated recorder in our bedroom, hoping to capture sounds of my W and the OM going at it. Didn't get that. Got some of our own, though - fun to listen to! And a couple of our fights, in which she constantly interrupts me and does about 90% of the talking. (This actually was amusing to replay too!) Yeah, I think both our couples counselor and my W's personal therapist both think I'm pretty far gone, and not playing with a full deck let alone an unstacked one. Well, it may be minus a Queen pretty soon!<P>Regards and blessings to all. I'll keep you posted.<P>--Wex

Wex: So sorry for you. I didn't realize that things had gotten that bad for you, until I read all of the reaponses that you posted. Sure wish there was something more that I could for you, for as you know, you were with me in the spring, when I was going through the toughest part of this fiasco. That was around the time I had finally admitted to myself that my suspicions were true, and that I could not deny it any longer. You gave me more support than you will ever know, and many times, your humour was the only bright spot of my entire day. I thank you for that. No matter what happens, I hope that I can help you get through it, as you helped me. Take care, and good luck at your session.<P>P.S. In answer to your question about my being crazy, when I first confronted H with some of the evidence, not only did he tell me that I was crazy, but that he was going to take me to see a psychiatrist, who, of course would tell me I was certifiable, and THEN he would leave me. <BR>On another note, our counsellors do sound similar, as far as childhood issues go, but, she doesn't put up with too much crap from either one of us. Last year, I related a story to her, about H throwing a hammer outside on the lawn, when he was having a temper tantrum. When he related the story, he had "Placed it heavily on the ground." Her comment to him? Stop bull****ting me! Don't get me wrong. There have been many times that she has taken me to task, as well. It's too bad your counsellor doesn't listen to BOTH sides, and then make a judgment as to who is telling the truth, and who is lying. BTW: Have you ever tried to tell him what mannerisms your wife exhibits, when she is lying? Worked for me!<P>Success Story (why me)<P>

Wex,<P>I have a thought for you that doesn't involve snooping but does involve a few white lies but makes you come across bright and chipper and probably stupid ;-)<P>Obviously your wife has to find time for this affair... time when you are not together, they are and you have no way of catching her out... If she is as smart as you say then she has this "routine" down pat very well.<P>What you need to do is unknown to her invade some of these times.<P>1) It might be her lunch break at work<P>Just turn up one day, say you wanted to try and make things better and so you thought you would surprise her for lunch, be spontaneous and show her you cared.<P>2) Night with the girls<P>Tell her you are going out with friends as well on the same night. Let her know you are doing something yourself. Maybe even bring a friend along and then at some point go to where she said she would be.<P>Tell her you were talking with your "friend" and he pushed you into going to the girls. Your friend can back the story up so she cannot accuse you of being untrusting... you even have the ability to say "I *really* didn't want to go because I know it would make you feel uncomfortable but he insisted"<P>3) Home late for work<P>Turn up with a dinner basket all made up. Tell her she was working really hard and you thought it would make her happy having dinner delivered to her doorstep instead of her having to work back.<P>The point is that you can find ways of being there when she doesn't expect you there... AND have perfectly provable and legitimate excuses that she cannot claim on being "crazy" or "insecure". The best form of deception is often stupidity.. "Yahuck, Yahuck... thought it would be nice dear" [said in a dumb voice].<P>If she isn't where she said she would be you have every right to hear her "story" if she is and the OM is there (I take it that although you dont know who he is you would recognize him) you have your proof.<P>The other side of this is that if he isn't there and she IS where she said she would be you haven't lovebusted and have in fact done something positive for your marriage.<P>Well.. its just a suggestion, it doesn't seem to violate making things worse by snooping and has some advantages for BOTH sides.<P>If you want to get her to confess the only way you are going to do it is by outsmarting her... and if you dont think you are capable... talk to someone who is.