SiSF:

I had writ a long post before lunch and my computer crashed (well, the software did).

You are absolutely right. I should know better than this. I plan to apologize to my W for not telling her how I felt this morning when I get home.

love,
-Qfwfq

A propos of "letting go"...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"When I accept others as they are, they change.
When I accept myself as I am, I change." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Carl Rogers

SC:

Very true. Very beautiful.

The opposite is also true.

When I refuse to accept others as they are, they can't change. I impose restrictions on their behavior and conditions on their growth. Put into THAT picture, how would *I* react??

Thank you,
-Qfwfq

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> When I refuse to accept others as they are, they can't change. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmmm... by staying in your marriage, are you not accepting your wife as she is, but waiting for her to change? Is Plan B accepting them for what they are? And us for who we are? "Can change" and "will change" are two different things, though.

<small>[ February 06, 2003, 04:19 PM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]</small>

john:

"Hmmm... by staying in your marriage, are you not accepting your wife as she is, but waiting for her to change?"

No. I don't think so. Whether I stay in the M or not, it is entirely my responsibility whether I can accept my W as she is. It is never my responsibility, or RIGHT, to expect her to change to suit ME. I have to choose whether I can accept her as she is or get out of the M. If I can accept her as she is, then it doesn't matter if she changes or not. But her "changing" and her abandoning unproductive behaviors are not the same things. If you're equating "changing" with "NC", then that's different. NC would be a change in behavior, not in the person.

"Is Plan B accepting them for what they are? And us for who we are?"

Yes. I think so. But it's also an acknowledgement and a clear statement, through action, that the WS's behavior is not good for the BS.

This is assuming we're talking about the same things anymore ;o) And when I think about it, maybe the "converse" statement doesn't work all that well after all.

-Qfwfq

<small>[ February 06, 2003, 04:38 PM: Message edited by: Qfwfq ]</small>

I took a chance at sending my W a "non-educating" quote that SC put on another forum about stress, entitled "No Problem":

------------------------
"NO PROBLEM!
Author Unknown
Don't worry if you have problems! Which is easy to say until you are in the midst of a really big one, I know. But the only people I am aware of who don't have troubles are gathered in little neighborhoods. Most communities have at least one. We call them cemeteries.
If you're breathing, you have difficulties. It's the way of life. And believe it or not, most of your problems may actually be good for you! Let me explain.
Maybe you have seen the Great Barrier Reef, stretching some 1,800 miles from New Guinea to Australia. Tour guides regularly take visitors to view the reef. On one tour, the guide was asked an interesting question. "The lagoon side of the reef looks pale and lifeless, while the ocean side is vibrant and colorful," a traveler observed. "Why is this?"
The guide gave an interesting answer: "The coral around the lagoon side is in still water, with no challenge for its survival. It dies early. The coral on the ocean side is constantly being tested by wind, waves, storms - surges of power. It has to fight for survival every day of its life. As it is challenged and tested, it changes and adapts. It grows healthy. It grows strong. And it reproduces."
Then he added this telling note: "That's the way it is with every living organism."
That's how it is with people. Challenged and tested, we come alive! Like coral pounded by the sea, we grow. Physical demands can cause us to grow stronger. Mental and emotional stress can produce tough-mindedness and resiliency. Spiritual testing can produce strength of character and faithfulness.
So, you have problems - no problem! Just tell yourself, "There I grow again!""
-----------------------------

Here's her reply:

" posted February 06, 2003 04:09 PM  
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here's her reply:

"You know that is pretty much how I used to deal with stuff, but of late it seems just to much, it's just so hard not to cry all the time..."

I just replied to her:

"Yeah, I know. Sometimes I still have to close my door so nobody sees me crying at work. I wish I could give you a great big hug right now!

I love you!"

Any thoughts?
-Qfwfq

<small>[ February 06, 2003, 04:59 PM: Message edited by: Qfwfq ]</small>

I should add that, for my W, at least when we're talking about daily life, the biggest stress is due to not "having our lives back" or our house back. Whereas for me it's... ...but YOU guys know! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

-Qfwfq

<small>[ February 06, 2003, 05:31 PM: Message edited by: Qfwfq ]</small>

This is probably a waste of my time, but just wanted to note that my W responded with a sample email she just sent to her boss, to show me the kind of stuff she's dealing with at work. Nothing she hasn't been telling me all the time at home, but RMs analysis, which is late, is in there...

I wish I could tell her to fire his @$$, but I know I can't.
-Qfwfq
P.S. And, no, she did not respond to my ILY.

<small>[ February 06, 2003, 05:32 PM: Message edited by: Qfwfq ]</small>

Nevermind! I overinterpreted the dialog. No big deal.

but she still won't respond to my ILYs. I will ask her why, when I can do so lovingly.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
love,
-Qfwfq

Valentines email suggestion:
~~~~~~~~~

Dear W .... I love you. I cherish you. I desireyou.

I want you to be my wife, my partner, my lover.

For the rest of my life. Always and forever, my love.

Do you love me?

~Q~

~~~~~~~~~~~

Go for her G-spot. Aim directly. Don't aim somewhere else, hoping to hit her G-spot .... you are just wasting your ammo.

What would be the most UNEXPECTED romantic gesture you could arrange to enjoy together? If you have been a little inhibited in your expressions .... I say .... knock her socks off!!! Go after her like you are 19 years old and burning with fire *down below*. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Pepper:

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Actually, I thought I was doing pretty well on our anniversary. Nice room in a historic hotel she likes. Shopping in antique stores the next day (and great SF a couple of times that night!)...

A good time... ...but no ILY. And she was clearly "testing" me to see if I would do anything for our anniversary.

I will do something like you suggest for Valentines Day. It's all true, after all! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

-Qfwfq

Hi lilbro & all:
Wow, I should "lurk" more often...this thread has been dynamite.
I'm so grateful for all the support and ideas offered here. Such learning...creating new synapses...take it slow & easy, Q, it's a lot to take in, and hard not to want everything to be better right now because you've gained more light on the subject.
This codependency is worth researching.
I myself looked into it a few years back...decided I'd attend alalnon and even counseling when I finally understood my own habitual pattern: I seemed to always hook up with guys who were emotionally distant and often at least "recovering" alcoholics. Things worked well as long as I gave and rescued (codependent?)but when I needed, things fell apart.
I don't claim to have found the answers, and I stopped looking in counseling or alanon.
But I can verify: our maternal grandfather was an alcholic, and who can even totally track all the dysfunctional behavior perpetuated in our family from just that source? Our older sister married and divorced a man who was a recovering alcoholic...that's an insane situation in itself. Our youngest sister married a guy who never drank but grew up in a partying home--and he is so afraid he controls his immediate environment like an obsessive perfectionist.
Keep searching, all, this is so awesome...and hard. But...the enlightenment gives me hope.
I love the quoted passage about the GBR. One thing I have observed about my dear SIL is that she can have this martyr sense...and that she seems to convey that her problems are bigger than anyone's. She is an amazing survivor, very strong...no doubts there.
But at the same time she believes she has the biggest problems, she dismisses them, too, and hasn't come to the point where she's tackled the pain, the behavior repercussions they've caused.
So...hang in there, my dear bro. Keep learning...
I think of our folks, who had their own problems and dysfunctions (sometimes emotionally distant, non-communicative dad...mom, too...see a pattern?), but did nearly make it to just days short of 50 years. Our dad still mentions now and again that he misses her. And those last months involved him not a few times taking his ailing wife to the shower to tenderly clean her up. How much clearer can the real lasting love be stated?
I can see you hanging in while the W faces things and grows...and I can see that you may need to step away and take care of yourself. Whatever happens, Q, I'm there.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Hi Bigsis!!!

Good to hear from you. Glad you can remember some things about our ancestors that I seem to have forgotten, or overlooked! (and I've been amazed that I ignored a LOT growing up... ...on up until about a year ago! ;o0

THis morning, as we were waking up, I asked my W if she were interested in SF, in as gentle a way as possible. No pressure. She said that she wasn't (also without making ME feel bad), and that right now, she just feels like she needs nurturing. She said she feels like a little kid in many ways, like she's starting over.

I said that I would be happy to nurture her! I said that starting over is a good thing. And I hugged and held her until we got up.

And you know? I don't need SF THAT badly. i can wait until she's ready. However long that takes.

I was thinking yesterday. I see two lights at the end of the tunnel. There's a branch in the tunnel. In one branch, I see us staying together and rebuilding our M. In the other, I see her unable to let go of RM, so we DV. And I'm okay with either route. But I'd prefer staying together!

(and if you asked me to predict, I'd have to predict we'll stay together! It's just difficult sometimes for me, as a "hard scientist" to see the long view, when there's this elephant that has yet to be shot!)

-Qfwfq

Last night we had a long conversation. Keep in mind, my W has cramps and a headache, and we spent part of our morning arguing with the plumber repiping our other house (a big misunderstanding between him and my SIL). We sorted that out, and the rest of the day was okay, but it all came back last night.

A lot of things came up. My W and I talked about our experiences with Cing. She said she thinks it's a waste of time. That C's can't help you at all. I agree to an extent, because obviously getting someone else's perspective may shed new light on your own situation. She agreed and then didn't.

She said that love, to her, means acceptance. I agreed, that love does involve accepting people as they are. When I told her I love her, she asked me what that means, and I tried to tell her, based on how I feel deep down, what it means to me. She then said that she doesn't think she knows what love is, and doesn't believe she ever will. We got off a bit about trust and forgiveness, and SHE brought up the A and how SHE can't trust ME still. I'm not as good at real-time conversation about these things, and so I didn't "do well" in the conversation on this part, and I told her that.

She asked me about the codependency discussions I've had this past week on MB. I tried to tell her what I could remember, but I was also trying not to educate her or unecessarily put her on the defensive, because she was very definitely taking the "victim" role during most of the conversation.

In the end, some major things were brought up by her.

*She is angry for my saying, in essence, to her during our argument last month that she was a "liar, a cheat, and a thief". I don't remember saying THAT, especially not the "thief" part.

*She said that her biggest mistake in life was getting married and having children. She did NOT, and has not said that having an A was a mistake.

*She asked me if I thought it would have been better for me if she'd DV'd me 12 years ago. Would I have done what I'm doing now then? I said, I can't do anything about the past, except perhaps learn from it. I can't change anybody around me, only myself. I can only affect myself with the changes I make to myself.

*She says she believes I expect her to feel guilty for having an A.

I slept pretty poorly last night, and I'm supposed to take my son flying his plane this morning (if he'll get out of bed, that is! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

After the convo, my W wanted to snuggle, and I said I would love to. But I didn't feel all that loved or loving. This am, too, though I feel more loving toward her. It is frustrating, though, knowing that she wants to "take things a day at a time" but she won't seek counseling, won't read ANYthing, won't talk to anybody. And if she's truly codependent in the way that BrambleRose said SHE is, (and BR's description of her co-d behavior is absolutely hauntingly similar to my perception of my W's behavior), this day at a time stuff will go on forever.

And like I said before, if she were paralyzed or something that prevented us from having a 100% M, that's both emotional and physical, that would be one thing, because it would not have been a CHOICE. But if we have this somewhat less than 50% M looming ahead for the rest of our lives, because she's CHOSEN not to be proactive, I must say that I'd rather follow one of the DV branches of that tunnel.

During the night, I felt like telling her that when I woke up. But I didn't, feeling that I need to be sure that I'm calm about my own choices before I do anything like that. I have been calm during the whole convo and throughout the night, and now, but I just want to be absolutely certain. And I also want to be sure that she feels the way she described and she wasn't just in a bad mood.

I don't think she wants a DV, but I don't think she wants a M, either.

-Qfwfq

."SHE can't trust ME still"

Clearly bull crap .... and let me tell you why ....

It is IMPOSSIBLE to trust anyone else 100% ... because we are human, and things can effect our behavior:

hormones
weather
ageing
hunger
illness
moods
anxieties
feelings
medications
media
other people

So .... if your W is waiting for herself to trust YOU .... she never will. The person you W does NOT TRUST .... HERSELF. She does not trust herself to be :

loveable
loving
faithful
strong
truthful
patient
flexible
forgiving

Your W's crucible is this .... she does not appreciate how loveable she is in your eyes because she does not see that loveability in herself.

~Q~ .... you can't "fix" this.

When you say "ILY" to your W .... the doubting voice inside her says, or whispers to herself ... "No, you don't. How could you? I am not loveable."

How sad is that?

Next time you want to tell her "ILY" .... say, "You are loveable." .... See if she notices a difference.

<small>[ February 09, 2003, 10:10 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Awesome thread, folks! Bookmarked for sure!!

Just read all 7 pages...all I can say is WOW! Many chords touched on and felt...sure I'll be re-reading, and re-reading, etc.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Firt response-

Q-

I have a comment on your thoughts re: caring for your W if she was paralyzed...and the "CHOICE" bit....

In a very real sense...you are caring for a paralyzed W right now! Just not a physical injury...a very real paralyzation as an accumulated result of emotional, functional wounds compounded by more emotional and functional wounds! NONE OF THESE WOUNDS INFLICTED ON HER AS A SMALL CHILD IN A DYSFUNCTIONAL FAMILY WAS HER CHOICE!

Now, that being said...I'm a recovering addict...with very strong co-dependent (read:female) traits...I can jump from one side of the fence to the other in a heartbeat....but there was no way I could deal with my co-dependency issues, until several years of continued sobriety. I can also say that in my case, sometimes deciding wether a particular undesirable trait is addiction based or Co-dependent based is a trick...but, hey, gotta play with the cards you're dealt, right? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Also, I agree, the decision to heal or not is HER choice.

My observation is this....she seems to be doing some self- searching, maybe even on the verge of some major self-discovery, none of it nice, very, very painful self-realizations....maybe the denial is losing it's grip.....it never hurts to hope, right?

For me, this self-realization stage was almost numbing in it's illogic and "waffle-ness"....the roller-coaster analogy is perfect. The major difference....All of the things she is thinking and feeling relate to her alone....not you, not her family, not her marraige....just HER. Kinda hard to shift the blame,ya know! Having to take responsibility for how you are right now is the first step on the journey of recovery. It doesn't matter how she got where she is, as long as she's seeing where she is realistically. You can't read a map to figure out how to get where you want to be without a knowledge of where you are when you open the durned thing.....

What you may be seeing as a roadblock, I see as progress...just progress she's not ready to share yet. She may not even know that it IS progress....the fog is lifting, and drifting...she very likely is trying to keep the fog around for some of the more painful stuff. I know that I did....if I hadn't, suicide was only a bottle of pills away.....

Nobody can handle being loved when they are busy trying to convince themselves that they are wretched, miserable, sorry examples of humanity. IMHO, this stage is worse for women, because of societal expectations and pressures relating to marraige, motherhood, care-taking, etc.

I see her as possibly looking around at the scenery, trying to figure out where she is, in order to gather the necessary strenghth for the mapping and beginning of the difficult journey on the road to a wholeness that she now sees that she has never even had. How's that for a run-on sentence! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I went thru the whole range of grieving emotions concerning this wholeness. It seemed so mythical and hopelessly out of reach....Realizing where I actually WAS in itself was incredibly painful....

Being responsible for your own healing is the most frightening thing...the only thing you have to lose is you...so you make yourself as worthless as possible, so the loss won't be so great if (when) you fail....a very real, kind of twisted, attempt at damage-control...which is what the focus of co-dependency is all about....

I'll visit again later when I have more time and less interruption...

You are doing well! Hang in there! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ February 09, 2003, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: HelenWheels ]</small>

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Hi lilbro back at you! Things being hard, delving deep...I think you're discovering and it's all good.
Appreciate the insights from Pepper and Helen. And I just gotta say--hope my SIL doesn't say aloud and in company that she thinks the M was a mistake. Those 2 beautiful kids at the least will put a lie to that one. She must be really hurting, starting to look close, but the view is too vast, too much right now, so she says hurtful things--another way to prove she's not loveable? The M is probably what saved her from having to look too hard at herself...and it's bought her time and strength so that maybe she'll be ready to take in the view. None of us is meant to figure it all out alone...and being on her own won't make things easier (I can vouch for that one, being a loner myself!). She'll have to listen to the noise in her head instead of using family busy-ness to block it out.
Hang in there, love you, Q, and thanks to contributors on this thread.

<small>[ February 09, 2003, 03:27 PM: Message edited by: bigsis ]</small>

Not enough time for a lengthy reply right now, but thanks for the responses!

"loveable": Boy, is she! I will use that, Pepper!

This is amazing to "watch", if it is growth, and I do think there's some going on. Why hasn't she left, if she hates her M and family as much as she sometimes says she does? Because it isn't true. When my son and I got back from flying, she came over for a big hug and a cry. And then again about an hour later. No words. And I was thinking, what do I want? I don't want a DV anymore than I want a broken M. So, I will try to encourage her when she shows signs of this soul searching going on. And wait.

bigsis! Hi! back atcha again!! ;o)
Qfwfq
-

some thoughts that SC posted on our website that I found educational, for me! ;o) More along the lines of infidelity in general than directly related to my sitch right now, but this stuff is there, too.

"The Difference Between Secret And Private

Private matters are those traits, truths, beliefs, and ideas about ourselves that we keep to ourselves. They might include our fantasies and daydreams, feelings about the way the world works, and spiritual beliefs. Private matters, when revealed either accidentally or purposefully, give another person some insight into the revealer.

Secrets, on the other hand, consist of information that has potentially negative impact on someone else-emotionally, physically, or financially. Secrets, when revealed either accidentally or purposefully, cause great chaos or harm to the secret-keeper and those around him or her.

Private: I believe in reincarnation.

Secret: I have a wife and a mistress and neither knows about the other.

Private: I got terrible grades in high school.

Secret: I forged my medical degree."

"The Difference Between Truth and Honesty

Truth is empirical, demonstrable fact. Your bank balance, today&#8217;s date, whether or not you&#8217;re married.

Honesty is about feelings. If you&#8217;re honest, you are open and clear about how you feel. You can be truthful without being honest and you can be honest without being truthful (the latter a little more difficult). The best relationships, stating the painfully obvious, are both truthful and honest. Trust is built on both truth and honesty, tempered by the proof of predictability and reliability."

I apologize for not knowing who the sources are. Maybe SC will jump in here.
-Qfwfq

WAT, H4F:

I just noticed that two of my favorite people on the planet's surface are on right now, and I wonder what they're thinking about this thread.

If it's just affirmation of what's being said by the other favorite people of mine, that's okay too! Or is that "2?"

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
-Qfwfq