Quick synopsis of the situation: I have been in plan B since early October with very little contact with WH. WH calls in early January indicating he may want a D, but when he comes over to talk about it he cannot actually talk about it. WH suggests that marriage counseling might help him talk about it/future. I stay calm and agree to this. We agree that WH should call his IC (who he saw last spring for about 8 visits until WH decides it's of no value/doesn't like what IC is saying about facing his demons) and get a recommendation.

Last week, WH finally meets with IC. WH emails the next day indicating that I should meet with IC separately and then we will all meet together again.

I meet with his IC. I have been mulling this over all weekend.

IC essentially states that he a)does not believe that WH is willing to put the effort necessary to have a real conversation, b) believes that WH thinks he is happy in his new life/doesn't have to face anything and consequently will not have an honest conversation, and c) that I am wasting my time on this man and that joint counseling is of no value. He goes further to state that he thinks I should file for a D immediately and have nothing further to do with this man. That he believes WH is unwilling to try anything that might open up deeper-seated issues and intermittent depression and that best course of action for me would be to distance myself from such a manipulative person. IC believes that WH is manipulating me into not doing anything.

This was all prefaced with comments that he will not tell me what they discussed but that he feels it is his duty to tell me that I should not hold out hope. IC continues to tell me that he is aware of the effort and change I have put into this relationship as recounted by both WH and I, but that WH is living a new reality and that reality is to run away into a new life.

Needless to say I was shocked that the IC would go this far in his admonishment of me to get on with a D. I have no idea what WH said to him.

I do not contact WH about this conversation after this. WH sends an email stating that he's going to come by the house to do some repairs and I send him an email just stating fine I'll be out of town.

I get another email from WH this a.m. telling me his schedule so that I can schedule joint appointment. I send an email back saying I'll be in touch after I have time to consider my conversation with his IC last week.

I do not know what my next step will be at this point. I believe WH is still seeing OW. What WH has told me is that he is still unhappy. IC says that he's just saying this to people, including me, to get me to feel sorry for him and delay my taking action.

Part of me believes that I should wait this out a bit longer. Another part of me hears what this IC is saying and wonders whether WH will ever be willing to face his demons and on what time frame and how long will I be sitting in limbo.

IC told me that I am wasting my life on a man that isn't willing to step up to the plate and be a real man and take any responsibility for his actions.

At a loss right now. Not going to do anything drastic or dramatic, but don't really have a feel for what my plan is right now. I feel as if I have been punched in the stomach.

Unsure Heart:

I think that IC is being unethical by making those negative statements to you about your husband behind his back and then continuing to see him. Does that therapist have much training? Does he have a degree? I would run not walk to another therapist. Therapists are not GOD. They are supposed to help you in making the right decision for yourself. How can the therapist know for sure the eventual outcome of your marriage or how your WS might change. I am sure Steve Harley, who is counseling me, would not agree with this therapist's approach. At least your husband is seeking help. My H would not even consider counseling at this point. GET ANOTHER OPINION. JMHO

Take Care!!!!

Dear Unsure, God, do I feel for your situation. Have you spoken to Steve Harley? Is there any way your H would consider Steve? As compared to the countless number of incredible veterans on this board (Bramble, Orchid, Lexxxy, Lor, Ark, WAT just to name a few), I am no expert but what I do believe is that few therapists believe in the Harley philosophy.

Worth every penny I've spent so far...it sounds as if you really want your marriage to recover. The Harleys are the key.

Good luck.

mimi - Thank you for your support. The weird thing is that this IC was actually pretty good last spring in working with WH trying to get him to face some things. At first I thought it was unethical of him to say these things to me last week, but he didn't reveal anything that was said in his meeting with WH and doesn't want to continue treating WH -- well not doesn't want to, but WH has told him that he sees no value in therapy and won't go back to individual counseling. WH won't consider counseling with Steve Harley. I counseled with Jennifer and WH looked at some of the books and claimed them to be "nonsense". WH is one of those diehard romantics (and I don't mean that in the roses and chocolate sense) that believes you shouldn't have to work at staying in love.

terrified - Thank you for your thoughts and support. As I mentioned above, WH will not consider counseling with the Harleys. At this point though I am considering getting back in touch with Jennifer. I haven't spoken to her since I went to plan B.

My sense is that very few counselors are supportive of the Harley methods, particulary IC. I think this IC was thinking he was helping me as an individual. I had seen him twice before during WH's earlier counseling - he had asked to hear my perspective and WH thought it was a good idea.

I am just at a loss at to what I tell WH. At this point in time my thought is to tell him that IC can't be of help in our particular situation and identify two or three other MC to go to for joint counseling. I do harbor some doubts though and really wonder what WH said to the IC to make him cross the boundary he crossed which is pretty atypical of him and he said so - he actually said he has never in his entire career given advice to someone about what they should do about their M like this, but that he felt so strongly that my WH was manipulative that he had to say something. It was scary and overwhelming.

Sure Heart:
I continue to have concerns about that IC. He knew he was scaring you but could not give you details. How could that be helpful to you as an individual? You are left scared and overwhelmed.

My WS would not continue with Steve H. but Steve continues to be very helpful to me. I would recommend that you contact Jennifer again and tell her what the IC said. See what she thinks.
Another thought is for you to see another IC in your area for yourself only. MC probably won't be helpful if your WS is not motivated. My WS came right and told me today that he is not choosing to work on the marriage right now. However, he is in the throes of an addictive A. That's how I am made to understand his actions and thoughts right now by Steve H. Is this the case with your H? I understand we have to "wait until the fog clears" if ever.

Hey USH,
I have grave concerns regarding the method employed by the IC. In my opinion, he should be either *your* IC, or *WS* IC, but not both at the same time. Also, once he is an IC he can't be your joint MC. If these borders aren't carefully managed, you end up with a huge trust issue - like your case now. IC "bad-mouthes" WH to you (and undoubtedly reveals client sensitive information (ie, about your husband) to you). Would your WH be happy to listen in to this conversation? Don't think so. Similarly, whatever you will tell him will end up - in garbled version - in your husband's ear. And so on.
Maybe the IC is full of good intentions, who knows. But I'd drop him hard and fast, and get marital advice from a third party. I would even go so far as to inform WH about your feelings, what IC said and all, and look for a joint MC, who will only fulfil this role. If you want you can then always get your own IC, and if WH wants, he still can stay with his IC. Provided, of course, that you are still willing to play along. You're doing amazingly well, and plan B is still right for you now. There were some encouraging signs earlier this year - make sure they are not being squandered by unethical and potentially counterproductive counselling.
Nick

unsureheart - how old are you?

I recommend you get back in touch with Jennifer so she can guide you on your Plan B.

My initial reaction reading your post was to recommend you simply tell H to re-read your Plan B letter. Assuming it says you will not communicate with him about your relationship until he's willing to make a committment to your marriage and leave OW, you have no reason to be participating in counseling with him.

But after thinking about it some more, I believe that a WS's offer to a Plan B'ing BS to go to counseling should be jumped on by the BS to determine what the WS has in mind. Break radio silence on a possibility that maybe counseling will be the last push needed. But once the BS figures out the WS's real motive - which in your case the motive appears to be to get you to file so he won't have this guilt - the BS should return to full on Plan B.

Are you in a hurry? Are you ready to get on with your life? Can you re-group, find a good man, and start over - which is why I asked your age?

Bottom line - don't file for divorce unless you want one. If you answered yes to my questions above, no one will blame you for cutting your losses, learning some lessons, and making a better life for yourself.

Hi unsure...

I have been wondering about you....despite this latest turn, I hope you are still taking good care of yourself.

I think it is real hard for anyone here to make an evaluation of your IC and what he/she has told you. You know him/her and your situation better than anyone. That being said, I do agree with the advice several have given you about seeing another IC yourself.

Are you in a hurry to end this? I know you have made changes and I know you have been doing well on your own. I also know you have thought about a D, but have you looked at a timetable? If there is some urgency on YOUR part to end this then I think this might be an opportunity...but if there is no urgency then I would not rush into it. Give yourself some time to consider it and to counsel.

One other thought occurs to me. Is it possible that your H is having the IC talk for him? That is, your H doesn't have the will or the courage to tell you to move on but thru the IC he either directly or indirectly is getting the IC to urge you to move on.

I have to admit, that this (as with so many parts of our stories) has kind of hit home. My WW and I counseled with the same person while we were back together in late 2001. I saw the IC for a few sessions after we separated again but we agreed that since she was my WW's IC it would not be proper for me to continue alone. My WW has been counseling with this person now for almost two years, so I have wondered from time to time if I would get a call from my WW or the IC asking me to come in alone and receive the type of message you have just received. I am not sure how I would react to it if that happened. But I do think of it from time to time.

The bottom line here is where YOU are in all of this. Are YOU ready to move on? Are YOU ready for a divorce? As much as we all care about you and are willing to offer our support and advice, ultimately you have to answer those questions. (As we all do.)

The one thing I still believe in though, that has been stated here time and time again: Do not file for a divorce that YOU don't want.

Take care unsure....you are strong and whatever happens I know you will be fine. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

E

<small>[ February 04, 2003, 07:09 AM: Message edited by: Elad ]</small>

unsure - we counseled with Jennifer and Steve for awhile. But my wayward husband was still in the affair. Even if it was on the phone only, anytime he heard her voice was a trigger. To do individual counseling with the same person, can be an asset. What your husband says, is private, and what you say is private. If your counselor is telling you that your husband has expressed that you move on, your husband could of said this direct, or indirect with statements. You are in a place of not knowing which way to turn. That is part of the crap that a BS has to deal with. The WS places all the chess pieces where he wants them, and dictates how the pieces will move.

I would suggest you looking into the counselors background, you said you counseled with this person before. Find out if this person is the right one. Look around, and ask for referrals. I have found the best referrals are those from a physician that you trust. This counselor should of not right away stated the negative statement. This person, should of talked with you for several sessions at least, to find out where you are in this marriage. Then talk about alternatives.

When your husband is in an affair, nothing else is working in their heads. They see the lust, (an affair is only lust). Cause they have not seen this person in the real light. With problems, pressures, deadlines, manipulation, etc. They have only seen this person, with the fantasy, the euphooria, playing house.

One, your husband needs to end the affair. I would just continue on with the plan B. And I would actually counsel with the Harleys if you are more comfortable with them. If you feel the counselor you saw that your husband saw is educated in plan B, then continue, but if there is not a comfortable feeling, find someone else.

Do not be a doormat to your husband. Get on with your life, and see what happens. While your husband is sitting on the fence, this is so hard for the BS. You are feeling betrayed everyday, everymoment, this is what the wayward spouse likes to see. You being the one that is not sure, not knowing, not able to see. It is the blindness, that they really don't care about you anymore. In a way, that a husband and wife should be.

Good luck.

mimi - Thank you. Yes, my WH is still in an active A as far as I can tell and so I don't expect much. He and OW work together in a small office and I think that is what is so discouraging (on top of the fact that I have to work with their small organization on projects). I don't know if or why WH is motivated. I suspect that the IC told me these things because he got the sense from his conversation with WH that he is too paralyzed to tell me anything himself.

Nick - Your concerns parallel the thoughts I have about IC. I never imagined that we were going to see him together as I was under the impression that WH was simply calling him for a reference. Then when WH met with him and asked that I do the same I thought it couldn't hurt (what an understatement). As of today my sense is that I should tell WH that his IC said he did not think he could be of help to us together and that he suggested that for my mental health I file for a D which I am not ready to do. This is tricky though because I am in plan B. I do not want to have a lot of contact/conversation right now because it is so painful while I know he sees OW. On the other hand, I think joint counseling with a competent person could help.

WAT - I appreciate your comments and have struggled with how to handle this in plan B. You asked my age, my goodness that's not a nice thing to ask a lady <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I am 39 and will turn 40 next week (valentine's day won't that be fun). I do not feel in a hurry and after much soul-searching this weekend am not ready to file for a D. I have a lot to offer in a relationship as I'm physically fit, look just like Cindy Crawford <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> , am engaged in community projects, financially ok on my own, love children (but wasn't blessed with any of my own), and make great pies. I know there are other men out in the big wide world that I could develop a new relationship with, but I choose to try and save my M. Some days I feel as if I am crazy to try, but I do have memories of some very good times and memories of WH helping me in the bad times.

elad - Oh boy did you hit it on the head when you said you thought you might get a call some day from WW's IC ending your M. That is my fear is the case with this conversation that occurred last week with WH's IC. I really do not know what to think and it is certainly possible/part of a larger pattern that WH is so averse to conflict and accepting responsibility for his actions that he would try and do this. I find it hard to believe this IC would agree to something like that explicitly though. I think IC thought he was doing me a favor by telling me in clear terms to eliminate this pain from my life.

Plan B would be A LOT easier if I hadn't received that invitation to WH and OW at my home or if I didn't have to attend meetings where OW participates or be copied on group emails about projects involving my WH. I try and ignore these things, but the reality is that I cannot. I told my boss yesterday that if the situation was not remedied I would have to think about quitting because even if I wind up with a D I would still have regular/almost daily contact with these two nincompoops.

Faith4Me -- Thank you for your thoughts and concern. I am going to call Jennifer H. again to set up an appointment. I was going to my own IC for about nine months, but then it stopped being helpful as she started focusing on telling me to "dump the bum".

For today, I am doing nothing. Tomorrow I will send a brief email describing why we are not going to have a joint appointment with this IC.

Hi USH, wish I could have logged in to read something happier from you, there are a whole bunch of WS' walking around out there with their heads up their rumps as you so eloquently put it.

I have no advice to add as everyone here has given it and I know you are intelligent enough to be able to think of every possible thing you can do to save your M.

If you were single and your H (as he is today) asked you to date him would you say yes?

Peace
Liz

Hi unsure...

I think Seahorse has kind of made a good point with her question of would you date your H now if you were single...I think of this with my WW, too.

The problem with this is what you noted in your post to WAT and that is the memories. You just can't divorce yourself from them, or at least I can't.

In fact, in my last e-mail to my WW I told her maybe I am in love with a memory...that perhaps she and I can never be what we were and if that's so then that is very sad indeed. Do you feel this way sometimes, too?

After an unhappy dinner meeting last week when some of this boiled over into the conversation she told she would not be in contact any time soon, then she e-mailed me this:
"I know I've said it before, and I'm sure it doesn't mean anything to you and you are sick of hearing it, but I need to get my head out of my a$$ so we both can start living something better than this limbo we are in."

I am not real optimistic about what this means.

You and I have been thru very similar situations with our WSs and I wonder if you think what I do sometimes, that is that this has gone so far that there just doesn't seem any way that we could ever make it work.

Then I think, well wait, if she did get her head out of her backside and all of the fog lifted and the strong commitment was there like it once was, then maybe we could make it work. And that's what keeps me hanging in there until the last dog has been hung...

Anyway, I hope you enjoy your birthday and your getaway with your friends (Santa Barbara was it?) Enjoy the distraction and have a great birthday...you deserve it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Take Care

E

seahorse - hello surfer girl. You have asked a good question about whether I would date WH if we were both single people meeting for the first time. Difficult question. He is still as handsome and intelligent as ever and can be very charming, BUT I wonder if I would see the self-wallowing pity. Probably not because when you first meet somebody they try very hard to hide their darker side. However, knowing what I know I do not think I would initiate a relationship with this man. The memories are mostly good and I'm trying not to hang on to them because they are no longer the reality.

I sent WH an email telling him in a summarized version what I had discussed with the therapist and that while the therapist might have trying to help it did not seem right to me to initiate a D I did not want and that even if I wanted a D it seemed very empty to pursue one without a conversation/trying a relationship therapist. WH has not responded and I think deep down I knew he would not respond.

Has your WH actually filed for a D? I could not tell from your other thread. It sounds as if you have lost your love for him (maybe not completely, but it sounds greatly diminished), which is what Harley says will happen.

elad - Yes, I ask myself the question all the time regarding whether it is too late and too much damage done to repair the M. I know if this continues much longer that it will become more difficult. As much as I want WH to come home and work on our M, I do have doubts in my mind about what that would be like and how much of a challenge it might be - frankly, it is difficult to imagine sharing a home with anyone right now as it has been so long since I have had someone there to talk to and to share affection.

It scares me and overwhelms me some days.

I am fortunate to have amazing friendships - some dating back to when I was a child and some more recent. I am fortunate to have loving and supportive parents and sisters and nieces and nephews that bring pure joy into my life (there is nothing like my 4 year old niece calling me at work and asking when I am coming to visit because I am her "other special mommy") or hearing the voices of the twins telling me their latest escapades. I have a wonderful job and two volunteer commitments that make me realize just how good I have it and that there by the grace of God I could be in the shoes of someone less fortunate.

I am going to spa next weekend/Valentine's Day with two of these friends (you were right - Santa Barbara/Bacara) and that is a treat I very much look forward to whenever I'm having a less than great day.

What to make of your WW's comments -- she sounds confused, but you already knew that. It continues to amaze me when the WS know they have their head up their rumps and know they are causing pain for themselves and for the BS, but they cannot see or do not want to see a light at either end of the tunnel to move toward.

Take care elad.

Hi USH, I thought my H had initiated divorce, but I asked him for the papers last week so I could sign and he said he hasn't filled them out and can't scrape together the money - which is all bull****.

In answer to your question on my post, no I haven't really got a timeframe if he dosen't file, although when the house is sold and all the financial stuff is being finalised if he hasn't filed I will. I have the papers filled out ready to go.

There is still love there, not romantic, but I wouldn't have him back now as is and he would have to do something might wonderful for me to even consider it. I just can't go through the pain anymore and I think I have a lot to give someone who really wants it and won't take advantage of it. I have told him straight I don't want him back.

I love that you go off to Spa and on trips, I hope you have a great time.

Nothing much to report, but I not only survived turning 40 on valentine's day -- I had a great time in a wonderful location.

WH called the weekend before and left a message at the house at midnight (I was thankfully not home). The message was that he was going out of town and would call in a few days.

WH emailed mid-week and told me he was in big trouble at work and would call.

He called on my birthday to wish me a happy birthday and to tell me that he was really in the dog house at work. I told him thanks for calling and that I was sorry he was having difficulties, but that I had to go (which was the truth as I was being taken out for a birthday breakfast). I left that afternoon for my birthday trip with two girlfriends.

We have yet to talk about going to see another counselor and I don't want to have any other kind of conversation right now. I really am resisting the urge to call and ask how he's doing as I know the situation at his job is not a good one. I know also though that he is a big boy and needs to handle this without me since we're in plan B. I have no idea whether he is still seeing OW and cannot imagine how that conversation is going since she works for him.

After spending a glorious weekend not thinking about this as much as I used to -- I hope that is progress -- I really am to the point where I do not want to spend time with him until he is ready to recommit to our M or proceed with a D.

I have not lost all my love for him, but I have lost any desire to spend time and energy with him while he is in his self-created limbo. It hurts too much. I am not indifferent, but really do know that I will be more than ok without him.

Elad - How are you doing?

Seahorse -- Ditto.

I was off the board for a while. I was having a hard time coping with the fact that my WH was not going to acknowledge my 40th birthday. I was feeling pretty empty and not able to reach out to anyone.

Hi unsure...

I have been wondering about you and I am glad to hear you survived turning 40 and had a great time on your birthday getaway.

I am doing OK--thanks for asking.

My WW and I have not moved in any direction. But to tell you the truth I am getting to a point where I really don't think we will survive as a couple. That is sad to say but I have to face the facts and right now that means she doesn't appear to have any interest in moving past this limbo land we are in despite her saying that she wants to.

She is taking some time off from work next week to drive her parents to AZ and get them settled in a condo there for a month's vacation. Nothing will happen until she returns home but at that time I think we have to look at where we are headed...or not headed as the case may be...

We remain in touch---

We met for coffee yesterday and exchanged Valentine Day's gifts last week, though we didn't really spend any time together.

I guess thru all of this I am doing OK...but I feel more and more that I just need to get on with life even if she is not ready to do that.

I pretty much believe I have done all I could and then some to try to salvage something here. It makes me sad, but at least I feel like I have made the extreme effort...more than a lot of people would have, I think.

So your WH did not acknowledge your birthday? I'm sorry---that's kind of sad. But you have to realize that the fog can be very thick.

I think you did the right thing in getting away and surrounding yourself with your friends and people who care about you.

I know how easy it is to let this get you down but try to do the best you can for yourself. You continue to sound good and your strength continues to be amazing. Good for you!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I know it's not much fun, but keep hanging in there...

Take care

E

elad - Thank you for checking in with me.

My WW and I have not moved in any direction. But to tell you the truth I am getting to a point where I really don't think we will survive as a couple. That is sad to say but I have to face the facts and right now that means she doesn't appear to have any interest in moving past this limbo land we are in despite her saying that she wants to.

Your words could be mine right now. I don't know that it's that there isn't any interest in moving past limbo, but rather an inability to see how to do it and a lack of courage to try. Obviously I do not know your WW, but my sense is that these WS stuck in this limbo place have found some kind of comfort in the limbo and are afraid to move out of that place. They are afraid to move in any direction. That certainly describes my WH.

I don't know what the point I will break down and acknowledge that this is going nowhere. I thought it would be if he did not really acknowledge my birthday, but he did call and say happy birthday immediately followed with his long tale of woe about work (for which I did feel sympathetic towards him to some extent). It left me feeling very, very empty.

I know that none of this makes sense, but I cannot fathom how WH has not made a decision to divorce or pursue the OW or try and reconcile the M or something, anything. If he believes as he's told me in the past that I am his best friend but he's not in love with me and he thinks he's found love with OW, then by all means go off into the sunset with her. Just do something. That is how I feel today, but if I were really faced with divorce papers I don't know how I would feel. I do feel as if life is passing me by in terms of love. I understand the Harley methods, but it is very hard to not have love, understanding or affection for such a long time.

I know you know what I am saying and I am probably repeating the range of emotions everyone experiences at this stage, but it is still hard.

I do not know how you are able to continue to see your WW so much while you are in this limbo. I think it would be very hard for me. I would like to see WH, but I also recognize the tremendous pain it brings with it. You must be very strong.

I think you are right when you say that you have done everything you could to save your M and certainly more than the vast majority of people that have experienced infidelity.

Thank you again for your kind words to me. The support on this board is very special to me right now as it is becoming harder and harder for friends to understand why I am still waiting. They ask "waiting for what" and I am not sure I know. Waiting for a sign.

Best to you. Are you on the east coast? I noticed you were posting at some ungodly hour in the morning and hoping that is due to the time change.

Hi unsure...

Well, you hit the nail right on the head with exactly how I feel right now.

USH: I don't know that it's that there isn't any interest in moving past limbo, but rather an inability to see how to do it and a lack of courage to try. Obviously I do not know your WW, but my sense is that these WS stuck in this limbo place have found some kind of comfort in the limbo and are afraid to move out of that place. They are afraid to move in any direction.

My WW acknowledges that we can't live like this forever and like I said a few weeks ago, she said she was determined to get her head out of her a$$, but to-date I have seen no movement. She has also acknowledged that fear is a big part of it. She says she is afraid of making the wrong decision (divorce) or making another decision (attempt at recovery) for the wrong reason. That reason being that she makes a decision because she is lonely, or scared or something else other than being head over heels in passionate and wild love.

The problem here is that I don't see how she can feel that head over heels love without us doing some things to work on that and get to a more "dating"-type footing. But she won't allow that to happen and I can't open up to doing that because of my concern about being hurt or her not reciprocating and none of my ENs being met for a long time now or something like that. (I hope that makes sense) In a way it's like I am trying to protect myself and my feelings. I really believe that on some level my WW really loves me...but it's so hard to get back to that "in-love" footing.

USH: but if I were really faced with divorce papers I don't know how I would feel. I do feel as if life is passing me by in terms of love. I understand the Harley methods, but it is very hard to not have love, understanding or affection for such a long time.

Exactly....I have that same "life-is-passing-me-by" feeling. I try to counter that by doing stuff for myself and with my freinds. I know you are doing the same but it is not the same thing. I truly miss the love, undersatanding and affection part of my life that I know is missing....I know I deserve that and I know you do to. All of the other stuff, including friends, can't fill that gap.

USH: I do not know how you are able to continue to see your WW so much while you are in this limbo. I think it would be very hard for me. I would like to see WH, but I also recognize the tremendous pain it brings with it. You must be very strong.

It is hard, but I don't think any harder than what you are doing without seeing or hearing from your WH. I believe that takes a great deal of strength, too. I guess maybe we are both strong in ways that we would prefer we didn't have to be.

USH: The support on this board is very special to me right now as it is becoming harder and harder for friends to understand why I am still waiting. They ask "waiting for what" and I am not sure I know. Waiting for a sign.

I agree that the board has been very helpful to me, too. There have been many special people (including USH) who have offered their support and advice and I am thankful for all of them. I know people are probably looking at me and asking the same questions about "why?" all I can say is that it is my life and my decision and when I do what I feel is right it will be for me...not them. I know you feel the same way.

BTW, I am in the midwest but in the eastern time zone, hence the early posts. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Thanks for your posts USH...I know this continues to be hard...I take it one day at a time and I know you do too.

Take care

E

Elad -- I find it eery to read some of what your WW says as it is almost verbatim what comes out of my WH's mouth. As hard as I try to understand the fears on the part of the WS regarding how they perceive their options (divorce or returning to a marriage when they don't feel intense passion and being madly in love), I don't think I can truly wrap my head around it.

What is the sign that will enable the WS to make a decision? What is the sign that will enable the BS to make a decision? I find myself re-reading all of these affair books and none really give me what I'm looking for right now. I think that's because there is nothing to look for at this stage. You cannot make another person see something they're not ready to see. It's a strange purgatory.

WH emailed today to ask whether I could get together to talk on Sunday. I have not responded. A true Harley/plan B response is probably that we have nothing to talk about if he's still seeing OW. That seems to pat to me, but I don't have a better response. Maybe it's because I am afraid he is going to ask for a D and part of me wants to postpone that conversation as long as possible. Maybe it's because I am afraid it will be as it was prior to really going to plan b where he asks for this conversation and then is unable to really say anything and it leaves me incredibly frustrated.

I know I still have love for WH. It would be easier if I felt less.

How are you feeling about WW? Are you at a point where you would initiate the D discussion. It seems that you are not, but I can tell you are tired of the state of limbo.

Do you remember those magic eight balls where you could get an answer by flipping over the little ball? I saw the other day that they now had magic DATE balls. Maybe I should buy on of those and ask it whether I should initiate a D?

Now, I'm trying to figure out where you live. Midwest, but eastern time zone -- that would narrow it down to Ohio, Michigan, or Indiana (funny that I don't typically think of those places as the midwest because I grew up in what I would really call the midwest and I've always thought of those states as more eastern -- the perspective of a mountain state dweller now).

I'm rambling. It's the second glass of wine and it's time to go to bed.

Hi unsure...

You are right about it being eery hearing the same thing from both of these WSs, but likes so many here they seem to sing from the same song book.

USH: What is the sign that will enable the WS to make a decision? What is the sign that will enable the BS to make a decision?

I don't know that there is a "sign" as such. If you talk to some of the WSs on this board it was different for each of them. Some knew right away they wanted to get their relationship back and some went right to the 11th hour before divorce before that happened (I think hope4future is one of those).

In my WW's case, I think she is trying to (or has already to a certain extent) re-make her life. And sadly I think that re-making doesn't include Elad. It seem some days she just has a hard time of trying to extricate herself from me. I don't know, some days it just is so sad and so frustrating.

USH: I know I still have love for WH. It would be easier if I felt less.

Boyoboyoboyoboy it sure would be easier, but I think there are those of us--like you and I--who just can't shut that off for some reason. I am still trying to figure out if that is a good thing or not. As you said, in some ways it would be easier if we felt less. But that's pretty sad, right?

USH: How are you feeling about WW? Are you at a point where you would initiate the D discussion. It seems that you are not, but I can tell you are tired of the state of limbo.

How do I feel about WW? Wow, there's a question....I love her, I know that for sure, but this is not living--for either of us. We have both initiated "talk" of D but neither of us have initiated the actual D. I have been a believer in not filing for a divorce I did not want, but I think I am a lot closer than I ever have been, now. I am not sure why, but I guess a large part of it is due to the weariness of living in limbo and just treading water here.

I sure wish there was a magic 8-ball or "date-ball" to help find our way thru this. Unfortunately, there is no magic in any of this.

WW and I had breakfast Saturday and at the end she agreed with me that this just can't keep going on. I think I mentioned that she is driving her parents to AZ this week, so she said when she returns we need to deal with all of this.

Whether we start spending more time together to see if this will work or if we decide that we need to go our separate ways.

My feeling is that she is going to say we need to split. That she just doesn't have enough in her to try to make this work.

I guess we'll see, she has gotten to this point before and backed away.

Have you heard from your WH...do you really think he wants to talk D? Let me know how you respond.

OK, OK, OK ---don't strain yourself, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> I am sure we all have our different view of what constitututes certain areas of the the U.S. For me, I don't think you hit the east 'til you get to Pennsylvania.

At any rate, here I am in Michigan <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Take care USH...

E