Hello - I have been lurking for a couple of weeks without posting much and have been learning a lot. I know I am not on the right website to get the feedback of people who agree with me, so bash away...I really don't mind a different opinion.

My future wife and I were casually dating (and I mean casually as it was more just going to bars or parties and I was actually pursuing others) when we got pregnant. I decided at the time that it was time for me to settle down and "do the right thing", so I asked her to move in with me.

We lost the child due to a miscarriage, but I kind of liked having someone take care of me, so we continued to live together. She talked a lot about marriage and finally I gave in and just said set a date. I never proposed.

I think some of this comes from my parents. I don't ever think I have seen them kiss. They never showed affection and so though I didn't have affection towards my wife, I thought that was what marriage was supposed to be.

We have been married nine years and it has seemed like just "existing". The only real high points have been the birth of our two daughters who I love more than anything.

A couple years ago, my wife's father passed away and she became very religious. She felt the need then to tell me that the first pregnancy was a result of her going off of birth control and not telling me. She wanted a child and if I stayed around that was just an added bonus. She has since revised her story to that she wanted me and that a child was a bonus. I'm not sure which is worse.

I should say also that after our second D was born, my wife started talking about wanting to quit work. One of my EN's I think is achievement. One of the things that attracted me to my wife was that she was a semi-professional woman. Our first few years of marriage we had a running joke about who made more money in the family.

Well, anyway I was against her quitting and told her as much. One day at work, I get a call saying she had just submitted her resignation. After that, she has had several part time or babysitting jobs to try to help make ends meet, but has quit one after the other and constantly complained about them.

All this built up a great deal of stress in me. My best friend for most of these years was a female. I'm still unsure on the boundries of when a friendship crosses into an EA, but it did at some point because I developed an attraction to her.

Last year, my W & I separated for 4 months after I told her I had an attraction to someone else. During this time, the OW and I never developed into a PA, but spent a lot of time together and became very close.

I was still in constant contact with my W because of the kids and we would date occasionally. I had a lot of guilt because the kids would ask when Daddy was coming home. Finally, my W suggested MB and we went to a seminar. I went because she said that if I could come home and say I still didn't love her, she would end it peacefully. This is really important to me as I want to minimize the affect on my girls.

During the weekend, I didn't really find much at all I liked about making meeting EN's a "habit". It somehow seems robotic to think that love is a habit. I was however, won over by the fact that Dr Harley claimed that he could take any two people and by following these practices could make them fall in love. I thought, if I can fall in love with my wife then an intact family will be much better for my kids.

Of course the first thing I had to do was end contact with the OW in my EA. Hardest thing I have ever done in my life!

Next I came home and started listening to the tapes, reading the books, doing the lessons, etc. I saw a change in my wife and things were "OK", but I still didn't have any feelings for her. I did this for 4 months.

After several weeks of thinking about it, one night I contacted OW to get some advice from my former best friend (she had gone through the same thing in that H didn't do anything wrong, but they were "roomates" and got a D). Yes, I had another motive also, to say that "Hey, we can be friends again!".

Well, come to find out, she met someone 3 days earlier and needs to focus on that relationship. That threw me for a loop and I sunk into a depression. In further conversations with her it has become apparent that she resents me very much for the fact that I broke off our friendship and doesn't want it back. She will no longer return my phone calls or EMails.

Even though I lost that, I knew I still didn't want to be married, so I told my wife that we needed a D. This, naturally, was responded to with verbal abuse and threats of making it nasty. I am a very logical person and so I researched things and came up with the book "Should I Stay or Go" by Lee Raffel. She describes a controlled separation agreement which has worked for some folk.

We are trying this now. W moved out last weekend and I have made my "to do" list on what I need to work on to make me a better person. Posting here is one of them.

I have a lot of resentment harbored because of the first pregnancy. Dr Harley talks about relationships that start from affairs being very difficult to sustain. Well, mine wasn't started from an affair, but it was a result of deceit. Isn't that the same thing?

I really think we should divorce so tht we can both get on with our lives. My biggest worry is that now that I have lost my BF...really my only good fried, I am now all alone. I will probably end up going back just out of sheer loneliness, not because I love my wife.

I need some opposing viewpoints because my W's aren't convincing me.

Thanks!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> During the weekend, I didn't really find much at all I liked about making meeting EN's a "habit". </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You never changed your mind and you must change your mind before your heart will change.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">After several weeks of thinking about it, one night I contacted OW to get some advice from my former best friend (she had gone through the same thing in that H didn't do anything wrong, but they were "roomates" and got a D). Yes, I had another motive also, to say that "Hey, we can be friends again!". </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, this is your proof that you never changed your mind. When it came right down to the nitty gritty you didn't embrace the MBers principles you were simply trying to convince yourself that you were making an effort to preserve your family while all along you were, in reality, still pining after your so called "friend", better known as OW.

I urge to to be honest with yourself and make a full fledged attempt to restore your feelings for your wife. Don't fool yourself into thinking your kids will be ok without their dad. They won't. Despite your wife's dishonesty regarding the first pregnancy, no one dragged you to the altar, no one forced you to get her pregnant two more times. Change your mind and God will change your heart.

<small>[ February 06, 2003, 09:05 PM: Message edited by: mthrrhbard ]</small>

Can't
Sorry but I think you're looking for real estate to buy in Rationalization City. You'll find it if you look hard enough.

I could see that you feel betrayed if you found this out soon after your marriage and before your daughters were born. But you obviously were content enough to have not one but two additional children. The resentment seems to be just an excuse.

I agree with mth, you never left the relationship with the ow and therefore were just going through the motions of recovery. You claim this woman was your best friend? Would a best friend help to destroy the lives of innocent children? Why did this discontentment come when the relationship with this woman came into the picture?

You say things such as "I liked having someone take care of me"... "I never proposed" but you did say I do..."I've lost my best friend" does that compare to losing your children and wife..."I'll probably go back because of lonliness not because I love my wife" how sad, how selfish. She's just as lonely as you.

I'm sure your wife loves your children as much as you do. She felt the need to be with them instead of working while someone else cared for them. She'll never regret the time she spent with them..they're children for such a short period of time. Her desire to be with them was just as strong as your desire to "achieve." Which do you think will have the more lasting value in their future?

I think it's an excellent idea that you do need to work on becoming a better person. What you do now with affect your children more than you will know. If you walk out on them, they'll always have the fear that every man in their life will walk too. You want that responsibility?

I know the grass looks greener to you but find someone who has left their family to establish another. Ask them if it was worth it. Ask them if they encountered the same problems if not more.

Don't do this to your wife to just avoid loneliness. It's not fair. Search your soul. Imagine what you would like your family to say about you after you're gone. Think of the impact you want to make on those in your world.

To rebuild your marriage will take work and effort on your part...not just establishing a "habit." If you can examine your life, your priorities, your value system, and still feel you have no desire to be a part of this family, well, then go. But don't blame your parents, don't blame your wife, don't blame this friend, know that it's totally your responsibility. Be a man.

CTOAN

I will have to agree that you are rationalizing. You still aren't being honest with yourself. That said, I should clue you in on the fact that I know rationalizing when I see it. I am a FWS.

I understand how you feel when you say your home life is more like being roommates than being married. Been there, done that. However, I must also tell you that when you do a lot of soul searching, set your mind to it, and really practice Harley's principles, they work. They really work. Eventually you will move to a point where you don't even realize you are "practicing" those principles. They do become habits. Good habits.

Counceling is also something else you should concider, in my opinion. Individual counceling may help you get over your rationalization of the situation. It may help you see that there are errors in your thinking. Or it may help you see you are right. But most important to it, you need to be honest with the councelor and yourself. No preconceptions. No half-truths. Just brutal honesty.

Then once you get your thoughts and feeling worked out, try some marriage counceling. Again, honesty. And in the meantime, I would also suggest your W go to some individual counceling. There is probably a few things she could work on also.

And as for that "best friend".....forget it and get over it. There are tons of people out there to be friends with. You just have to look around. And with the next one, protect yourself, your wife, and your kids.....make sure it is another man.

Basically, in a long winded way, what I am saying here is that a marriage can work. If you want it to. If you stop rationalizing how bad things are and all those things you are "missing out" on. If you are willing to put in the work. Sounds to me like you are just going through the motions right now so you can later say that "you tried". Get it together and buckle down.

Regretting

I agree with the others. I'm a BS and also a WS, so I know the rationalization and justification that goes on. "I don't love him, I never really loved him." "We're more like room mates." "He doesn't understand me the way you understand me." blah, blah, blah.

If you would spend the time, focus and emotional energy on your WIFE that you've been spending on your OW, then your wife would be your best friend. It's completely selfish and unreasonable to have another woman as your best friend, for Pete's sake! How do you think that makes your wife feel? I'll tell you how...like she's good enough to "boink", but not good enough to be your best friend. Talk about lonely.

Stop focusing on the OW altogether. She's out of your life, so stop pining for what was or what could've been. That's all fantasy anyway. Get into the here and now and give your marriage a real chance. Just throwing crumbs at it won't help. You've got to get serious and focused.

As I said, at one time I thought I didn't love (or even like) my husband. I cannot tell you how glad I am that we didn't quit back then. We are more in love than we ever thought possible, and better than that -- we're best friends.

Lori

People make mistake, we are only human. It is not about the mistake but it is about what you do afterward.

The key in MB is willing. You resented your W b/c you break the GF relation. Now you blame your W b/c you are hartbroken. Life is too short to wonder around. You already have someone that know MB and willing ... and on top of that you owe it to your kid to try wholeheartedly. Contact SH and challenge him with your dilemma.

Just a thought, do you know how your W feel about this ?.

-rh-

Just one more thought. Your wife may have resigned from her job outside the home but when she did she took on the most important job of her life, raising her children herself, not delegating the most important job in the world to someone who doesn't love her kids they way a mother or father does. Your wife made the right choice, achieving healthy, well adjusted, secure kids. We can fool ourselves all we want about "quality" time. Kids don't want quality time they want and need "time" and lots of it. In fact they require it. The term "quality" time is just something adults use to appease their guilt.

You never get back your kids influential childhood years and there is no one better at bringing up your kids than you or your wife.They need you more than an hour or two before school and a few hours before they go to bed each night. Your wife is still achieving, she's acheiving the most important thing of all and I think it's sad for her and your kids that you don't recognize that. Maybe it's a good time to take a good hard look at your priorities. When you and your wife are dead and gone it won't matter to your girls how big a house they lived in or how big your bank account was, they'll remember the time and effort that was spent raising them and cherish the fact that they had parents that were willing to give up "things" to spend each and every moment with them.

"But I kind of like having someone taking care of me."

WHY? What is your idea of manhood? Do you realize how babyish you sound? Do you have any idea why you are so reluctant to function as an adult man?

9 years of marriage, and you have a FAMILY .... you job as a MAN is to make this work. You do whatever it takes, make the personal changes you need to make in order to work things out for the mutual benifit to yourself, your wife, your kids.

Divorce is an option because ...... WHY? Because this relationship is difficult? ?? SO WHAT? Any relationship needs tending.

You have your garden right in front of you. Weed, fertilize, plant seeds, water, expose to sunlight .... and your harvest will be your reward for all your difficult efforts.

You said, "I have a lot of resentments harbored because of the first pregnancy." .... could-a, should-a, would-a .... We all have our little "what if's" .... you are a family man .... get over your resentments. You have a family, and you have resentments .... which one, when compared, has value to you?

I know I sound harsh, think of me as your older sister .... bonking you really hard upside the head with a soft pillow .... No permanent damage. Just a temporary sting.

<small>[ February 07, 2003, 10:49 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

I think you're selfish.

You have young kids and you want a divorce? You're more important than your kids, right?

You didn't describe any abuse or overtly adverse circumstances in your story, si I cannot conclude that your is an example of a marriage that OUGHT to be dissolved despite young kids.

Will you do anything for your kids? You said you love them more than anything. I recommend you stay and work on your marriage, or admit that you love yourself more than your kids. Once you can admit this, you have your answer on what to do and we cannot talk you out of it.

Well, I just read a devotional this morning that is appropriate here. I will put it at the end!
My parents divorced when I was about 4 yrs old. Today I'm 60 and I still hurt over it. The OW/Best friend isn't worth two cents to have gotten involved to begin with. What you had with her is a woman who can cheat,lie and deceive and not care who gets hurt. Including you!
You said your wife found the Lord? Or religion? Good for her, because that is the best thing she could do for herself and her children. Brining them up in a Christian astmospher!
Someone had to be responsible to those babies and it sounds like she's got her act together!
You have a choice, and which one you choose is going to determine your future.Can you live with all the guilt? All the mistakes you're going to wake up to if you walk? Most can't and would drop OW and concentrate only on wife and family. She didn't get PG alone!

"Can anyone hide in secret places so that I cannot see him?" declares the Lord. "Do not I fill heaven and earth?" declares the Lord.
Jeremiah 23:24
Personal responsibility; two very uncomfortable words for many people. There seems to be an unwillingness to take responsibility but instead to blame all that goes wrong on someone or something else. Attempting to evade any repercussions from their actions by playing the age old blame game. It wasn't my fault, or if only. Unfortunately it is not something new to our culture and society. Adam and Eve played the same game; Adam blamed Eve and Eve blamed the serpent. In taking responsibility for our actions we are able to face the truth about ourselves, and although very uncomfortable at times if embraced instead of evaded it frees us from chains that bind and stifle our growth and our faith. Taking responsibility for our actions will produce a fresh breeze that will run through every part of our lives. It is not healthy for anyone to bear the load of deceitfulness. With God we can be honest, He is the one who can change our mistakes and our hearts; it is futile to try to hide from Him. He is our hope and most certainly bigger than any problem we can create of find ourselves in. We can trust in Him.

Prayer

Give me strength to face the truth and to take responsibility for my actions. Forgive me for attempting to blame my faults on others and making excuses. I desire to be free from the darkness and free to continue to grow in my faith and my relationship with you. From you I cannot hide so instead I choose to run into your arms of mercy. I trust in you.
Amen

I think this fits your situation very well. It's so easy to blame someone else to try to justify your own lust and me, me attitude!
You've gotten good advice here, but will you follow it? Can you be a man of integrity and honesty, honorable and trustworthy? Facing your own consequences and taking your own blame?
Or is it easier to blame W and just float off into fantasyland? Your children will pay by you decision. And so will your Wife. This OW/Friend isn't worth it! She is also just using you! Get Real and get responsible for your own part in this.
Loulou

Thank you for the replies. I'll post some responses later when I have more time. I just wanted to clear something up before this spiraled any further. I don't think I made it very clear in my first post.

The OW is gone! There have been no meetings and 2 phone conversations in the last 7 months, the last time she told me she would not return my calls or EMails, so it stopped.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CantThinkofAName:
<strong>She will no longer return my phone calls or EMails.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That sounded like your focus was still somewhat on OW. You didn't really give her up -- she just made herself unavailable to you.

In any case, it's good that you have no contact with OW. But don't look at your relationship with her wistfully "if only".

[QUOTE] "I have lost my BF...really my only good fried, I am now all alone." [QUOTE]

The above, from your first post, is an example of thinking of the OW wistfully. Stop that and focus on being the best friend and husband your wife could imagine. You get out of it what you put into it. If your marriage doesn't survive, it'll be because you didn't give it the effort and nurturing it deserves. Not because of the circumstances of your first-born's conception. That's a lousy excuse.

Lori

Hey...what is that noise? Oh yeah...FOG HORN!!

Sorry but can you come up with a few more excuses as to why you are putting your family through this? I have read that book about controlled separation...my circumstances are a world different from yours. The book is ok but definitely meant for those who want to ease into divorce.

Facts...you are just as responsible for advent of your marriage as your wife is. Maybe she tried to trap you maybe she didnt....BLAH BLAH BLAH. Your reason for "setting the date" wasn't all roses and hearts either...You liked someone picking up your dirty socks. The reasons you got married are not important in relation to the fact that YOU ARE MARRIED NOW!!

Get the OW out of your mind. Come to terms with the fact that you had an affair and never recommitted to your marriage. You will never find peace in your marriage or a new relationship until you face the truth of that fact.

I agree with whomever suggested you were selfish. What sort of husbands do you want for your daughters? Should the example you are setting now be their goal?

Your idea that you do not have to work at love is off base. Love may come easier in the early years...so it doesnt seem like work.

Imagine if we said: "Well I was born healthy so why should I have to take care of myself, work at keeping fit, control my habits? Well you dont have too...and guess what you DROP DEAD at a very early age!" Same thing happens in marriage. What came as second nature now takes a little bit more effort but the result is sustained love...just like excercise, eating right help sustain good health.

Welcome to MB. I urge you to start working on yourself and your marriage. Do not destroy the life you have potential of living for a fantasy that will only turn into a nightmare.

ayslyne

Thank you all again for your responses! You have given me some great things to think about. Especially those of you who offered constructive criticism…Regretting, redhat, worthatry….Thanks. Some of the rest of you with the BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, challenging my manhood, etc. posts, I’m sorry, but you are just minimizing my feelings. They are mine and not yours. I find it hard to believe that the same people who can claim that an affair is ‘whatever you spouse thinks it is’, can minimize anyone’s feelings.

I want to respond to some of you individually.

Mthrrbard: I agree with most of what you said, I do still think wistfully about OW. I’m not sure how to get over that. I thought with enough time with no contact it would go away, but it hasn’t. The only thing I disagree with is this statement:

Don't fool yourself into thinking your kids will be ok without their dad. They won't.

My kids will NOT be without their Dad. We have a joint custody arrangement during the separation and even have “family days”. I know it’s not perfect, but we continually talk to them about how they are feeling. They have actually adjusted to the separation better than I ever could have imagined. When living together, there was constant fighting between the sisters and between W and daughters and myself and daughters. I’m sure it was because of the tension (though W & I never argued in front of them). When I have the kids or W has kids alone, they are perfect angels. It’s a phenomenon I wasn’t expecting, but am happy it is going that way.

Jph:
But you obviously were content enough to have not one but two additional children.
Actually, the kids were another thing I kind of “gave in” to similar to the marriage. She talked about it constantly and I never really had a strong desire to have kids. Don’t get me wrong, it is one thing I am very, very happy I gave in to.

Why did this discontentment come when the relationship with this woman came into the picture?
The discontentment was there LONG before the OW came into the picture.

Don't do this to your wife to just avoid loneliness.
You contradict what I said. I said I have a fear that I will just come back and ‘exist’ to avoid loneliness. I am fully aware that I will be lonelier with my kids only ½ time.

But don't blame your parents, don't blame your wife, don't blame this friend, know that it's totally your responsibility. Be a man.
I’m not blaming anyone! I’m giving you reasons I may feel the way I do. I hold absolutely nothing against my parents, wife or friend. I take full responsibility to the things that have happened/will happen in my life.

Regretting:
Thank you, good post. I have tried MC with my wife and had one session of IC this summer. I know I didn’t give it enough of a chance and will be going back for IC soon.

Redhat:
Contact SH and challenge him with your dilemma.
I have talked with Harley Sr. via the private message boards. Needless to say, he and I don’t see eye to eye. I will consider contacting SH if I don’t feel my IC is going well.

Mthrrbard:
You and I will probably never see eye to eye on this issue either and I’m fully aware that most of the rest of the world would tend to agree with you. My mother stayed home with me when I was a child. I grew up really sheltered and did not have good interaction with others when I began school. I see the same things showing up in my children. They are unbelievably shy and will not open up to anyone other than my W and I. And they are much more dependent on her than me.

All that said, it’s not that issue that I have a problem with. It’s that we didn’t AGREE on it. She just did it. After all her arguments for the pro didn’t come true I brought it up again. Nothing changed.

Pepperband:
"But I kind of like having someone taking care of me."

WHY? What is your idea of manhood? Do you realize how babyish you sound? Do you have any idea why you are so reluctant to function as an adult man?

I didn’t phrase that well at all in my first post. I realize it sounds like I wanted a maid to cook and clean for me and it was not like that at all. I cooked more than half the meals and always did my part around the house. What I was trying to relate was that there was someone at home to keep me away from the parties and bars that I was in to at the time.

Worthatry:
Ouch! Well, I have thought that I have done everything I have done up to this point because of my kids. However, as others have said, perhaps I have just been doing it half-@ssed to make myself feel better and just be able to ‘say I tried’. I’ll have to examine that.

LadyLou:
Thanks for the passage. Though I am not a religious man, I can appreciate the wisdom there. I also understand you are hurt by your parents divorce. Everyone is different and I don’t know the situation with your parents. I know many people who are hurt by a parents divorce. I also know just as many people who’s parents divorced amicably and were both involved in their lives and they have few problems.

At peace:
As I said above, I agree, the ‘wistfulness’ for the OW is something I need to get over. I just need to figure out how.
Not because of the circumstances of your first-born's conception. That's a lousy excuse.
So everyone has told me! Hmm…I need to examine that more too. How is changing the direction of someone’s life by deceit trivial and having a friend with whom you never acted on your feelings is the worst thing I could ever do? I know you can’t get into comparing the severity of sins because they both were. However, everyone here seems to minimize her sin and maximize mine. Why is that? Really, it’s just a question I am struggling with.

Everyone who suggested I am being selfish:
You darn right I am being selfish! I feel that I have done everything in my life for someone else. I feel like I have let my life ‘happen to me’ rather than ‘making it happen’. I need to take some ‘me time’ to make myself a better person and quit harboring all this resentment and pain. That is why I am posting here. I am fully aware that folks here are not going to agree with me, but you are giving me much food for thought and I really do appreciate that!

Sorry for the long post.

CantThinkofaName,

I think we just found you a name. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> selfish.

The last paragraph you wrote:

You darn right I am being selfish! I feel that I have done everything in my life for someone else. I feel like I have let my life ‘happen to me’ rather than ‘making it happen’.

Sounds exactly, word for word what my WS told me after he confessed his first A.

So I dedicated the next seven years to meeting his many, many, needs. Who would have thought he would realize there was one need I wasn't too good at so he found someone who was.

I have no advice. Just make a decision, and get it over with.

I've heard D is worse than death because it is never really over.

I've heard whether the past was wonderful or terrible forget it. Move on.

You'll get some good advice here. This probably wasn't it.

In my prayers,
landslide

What are you talking about? Minimizing what feelings? That your friendship was right? That you deserve me time?

Excuse me but did you or did you not freely engage in sexual relations with your wife prior to your marriage? Whether she wanted a baby, you, or both you knew the possiblity existed.

How can you take a moral high ground when you were both wrong. You wanted to engage in casual, meaninless sex with a woman you had no intention of marrying. She maybe wanted more. Maybe she used bad judgement. Point is you didnt care. How are you so much better than your wife? How is your rationalization of immoral behavior better than hers?

There is no minimization of your feelings. I plainly think your feelings are serious. Seriously flawed that is. You are a married man with children. Your friend is irrelevant.

So go ahead take all the me time you want. Meanwhile hopefully your wife will recognize her value as a person and a mother, move on and find a man who understand the obligations of a husband and father. You are unappreciative of the life you have in front of you. Sadly you will suffer more before the fog starts to lift...or as you put it your "me time" comes to an end. Just mark it down. This is all your choice. No one is decieving you into these choices. Abandon your children and their mother. Avoid the issues...chase after another woman. And whatever else you can think of...

Just a question...why come to MB at all? Are you in so deep you actually think you can work to build a relationship with your OW with our help?

Take it from me. I know all the excuses your telling yourself right now. I feel for you when this all actually hits you. The pain you are causing your children, your daughters. The guilt will be tremendous. Good thing MB will still be here to help you through that stage of this terrible upheaval you are causing.

So sorry if your manhood is offended by the reality of your actions. For the record: Real men don't abandon their families...Real men don't chase skirts...Real men sacrafice themselves for the children...Real men live up to their vows....all the rest is :BLAH BLAH BLAH.

best wishes to YOUR WIFE and YOUR CHILDREN...(God knows they need it)

and hope for clarity for you...God knows you need it

ayslyne

<small>[ February 08, 2003, 06:55 PM: Message edited by: ayslyne ]</small>

OK...I know I am harsh but you are making me really mad.

Read what you are saying. Look at your life. Every major event you say you gave in...there was no gun to your head. So what if she talked about her dreams 24/7.
It is clear to me that you are most upset with yourself because you were not assertive in many areas of your life that you now think you should have been. I think that it is very true you need to change your...oh well whatever attitude...but change it for the right reasons. Regardless of whether you want to admit it or not you made every choice in your life. Maybe you just did not like the choices that were lain in front of you. You are making choices now.

I am glad you came here and want to try to benefit from others life experiences. You need to start taking responsibility for every aspect of your life. If you gave in to suggestion...YOU gave in. No one forced you. If you hadnt given in what was the alternative...would you have lost your marriage...would she have driven you away...at some point you gave in to every choice placed before you. That is all you. That is your problem.

I just urge you to examine why you are doing what you are doing. What toll this will take on everyone. I do not care how well adjusted your children may seem...problems always arise. If the err of your ways is not immediately recognizable in your children it will eventaully manifest itself...especially since you have daughters. You do not fully understand how the treatment of the mother by the father becomes such an archetype for daughters.

You are right that you need to make choices...assert yourself. Take responsibility for your life. Just be clear as to what the right decisions are. Dont just make them because it is plainly opposite of your wife's wishes. Don't blindly follow this...I will do what I want to do...mantra. Accept the choices that you have made in the past...good or bad...and resolve to make better choices for the future. Just remember you are not a singular choice maker any longer...you are a father and a husband. No matter how you try to escape that fact.

Please think about what you are doing.

ayslyne

<small>[ February 08, 2003, 07:21 PM: Message edited by: ayslyne ]</small>

ayslyne - thank you for the additional post. Couldn't tell you were mad! Just kidding! ;-)

If you read my entire post, you will see that I do take responsiblity to everything that has happened in my life. Your right, I did make the choices.

I am not trying to get off on any moral high-ground. I freely admit to the fact that I made mistakes. Perhaps I shouldn't have compared the pregnancy and the EA. It's apples and oranges anyway.

Perhaps I have been focusing too much on what happened in the past in my posts. I was just trying to give ya'll background. My main point is that there is no love for my wife.

I've tried everything my wife has suggested and everything I can find.

We actually went out for a date last night and had a good time. Went to a comedy club and we laughed together for the first time in a long time.

To answer your question about why I came here, it is becuase I AM THINKING ABOUT WHAT I'M DOING. I came here because I knew I would get bashed and wanted some contrasting views.

Thanks.

Cant ~

You are absolutely not taking responsiblity for your choices, you are blaming your wife for all of your life choices...hence your resentment.

A man takes responsiblity and does not shift blame and resentment to others for how his life unfolds.

Btw, my children were angels during separation - my husband never had to discipline them.

Why? They were scared sh!%less that they were going to drive their father farther away.

All they desperately wanted was their dad back in their home full time.

And if you honestly want opposing views about the effect of divorce on children, read this book cover to cover before deciding that you are not selfish and/or harming your children:

The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce: A 25 year Landmark Study

This study followed children from divorced families into their 40s, and 2 other control groups: children in unhappy but married homes, and happy marital homes. Guess which children as adults are faring worse?

First of all. Do not disregard my other posts. I meant every HARSH WORD.

The problem is not that you have no love for your wife. The problem is you do not have a grasp on what love is. Plus love is only one component of marriage.

Ok so you are here to think about what you are doing. Good. What are you doing? What are you learning? What is love...anyway? Everyone's OP is perfect when looking through the fog. Every other option seems credible. Take a deep breath. REread...then read again...I am not letting you off the hook...You think your wife was hard to deal with...You aint seen nothin' yet hon!!

ayslyne