<small>[ February 05, 2005, 09:18 PM: Message edited by: hanora ]</small>

wow, you must have meant a lot to ow , seeing how she replaced you so fast, I mean you did say you were best friends for years ,right? I bet she is real trust worthy too and unlike your wife, I bet she wouldn't dare quit her job just to stay at home and take care of a couple of bratty kids
that you didn't want in the first place.
Yep, I think you should dump the wife and kids
and go after her, she sounds like a real prize.

I think we must give credit where credit is due and you get a pat on the back for being brave enough to come here and ask for opposing opinions. We are known to be pretty harsh, but soft hitter's won't help much in helping to save a family.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My kids will NOT be without their Dad. We have a joint custody arrangement during the separation and even have &#8220;family days&#8221;.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sir, your kids will be without their dad. Joint custody is no comparission to having your daddy there to tuck you in each night. It's no comparision to seeing the protector come through the door each evening. It's no comparision to having daddy's lap to climb into before bed every night, to be loved up and feel safe in his strong arms. Eventually, if your wife remarries after a divorce, it may well be some other man they are looking up to and looking to for cuddles because you won't be there every day for that with a joint custody agreement. They NEED a daddy who recognizes that they need him on a daily basis. The greatest gift you can give your daughters is to love their mother. I know of a study that was done ( don't ask me to site the author, it was a long time ago that I read this, you'll have to take my word for it)I read it when I used to work in a labor and delivery unit and was dismayed over all the young teens having babies. They study showed that the girls who had lots and lots of physical affection and touch from their dads on a daily basis were less likely to become involved in a sexual relationship at a young age. They postponed those kinds of relationships because their fathers had filled their need for touch and affection. You can't get quantity touch and affection with a joint custody agreement. Please give yourself more credit regarding your daily importance as their father. Society again will tell you it's perfectly ok , and sure it's probably the "norm" today with divorce as rampant as it is, but it hurts not to have a daddy on a daily basis. No one else can give that to them and they will never forget that you were the one to leave the family home. I'm blessed to have a recovered marriage. My youngest child and only daughter was 6 when her dad and I separated.To this very day she will occasionally ask/tell him that's he's never going to leave again, is he? She just turned 10. A two month separation was SO traumatic for her that she still needs occasional reassurance. You cannot imagine how this hurts her dad to still hear this from her after all this time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">They have actually adjusted to the separation better than I ever could have imagined. When living together, there was constant fighting between the sisters and between W and daughters and myself and daughters. I&#8217;m sure it was because of the tension (though W & I never argued in front of them). When I have the kids or W has the kids alone, they are perfect angels. It&#8217;s a phenomenon I wasn&#8217;t expecting, but am happy it is going that way.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You must not be familiar with the term "magical thinking" used in child psychology. Kids tend to blame themselves for things that happen. They will often blame themselves no matter how much the loving adults in their lives tell them over and over that they were not to blame. Do you think it's NORMAL that they are all of a sudden perfect little angels, especially when there has been the upsetting separation of their parents. Of course it isn't normal. They are convinced that if they are "good enough" mommy and daddy will get back together and their family will be restored. I assure you this is what the change is all about. It has nothing to do with a decrease in "tension". If they could sense the tension before the separation, let me tell you that they are even more acutely sensing the loss and saddness their mother feels because you are gone. They are trying to fix things by being good and actually believe they may have that power. Kids aren't ever supposed to be "little angels", with the exception of short periods of time in certain social situations. It's normal for siblings to fuss and fight. It's normal for kids to go against the grain and push the limits with their parents. They're little angels now because they're afraid that if they are anything less than perfect their family will fall apart, permanently. Oh what pressure that must be. Don't be so happy with what you see, it isn't normal.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> . I grew up really sheltered and did not have good interaction with others when I began school. I see the same things showing up in my children. They are unbelievably shy and will not open up to anyone other than my W and I. And they are much more dependent on her than me.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would guess by the length of your marriage that your children are still quite young. It's quite ok for them to be shy, maybe that is their nature. Not everyone is a social butterfly. There is no reason for them to have to open up to anyone else if they feel safe and secure and bonded to their parents. They may well have a wonderful sense of good boundaries. Of course they are more dependent on her( do I a detect a hint of jealousy there?)SHE'S their MOTHER and they are little GIRLS.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> All that said, it&#8217;s not that issue that I have a problem with. It&#8217;s that we didn&#8217;t AGREE on it. She just did it. After all her arguments for the pro didn&#8217;t come true I brought it up again. Nothing changed. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So your problen is that, as a couple, your communication leaves much to be desired and you haven't learned how to use the Policy of Joint Agreement. That can be fixed and it's a small price to pay in fixing it if it keeps your family together. Those two problems were at the crux of the problems in my own marriage , those and having differing priorities and never coming to an agreement together on what priorities should be first as individuals, as a couple and as parents. Boy, can that lead to a lot of conflict and an empty love bank! Learn how to communicate and how to come to mutual agreement with a win/win and your love bank won't be empty anymore and you'll find yourself in love with your wife. Does it take lots of work, you bet. Let me tell you though, the satisfaction and joy at having a mutually satisfying and loving marriage is well worth all the effort.It not only brings satisfaction but pride as well. It can be done but you have to want it and you have to change your mind.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We actually went out for a date last night and had a good time. Went to a comedy club and we laughed together for the first time in a long time. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is a very important key in regaining those "in love" feelings. You and your wife's relationship must always come first. You cannot stop dating each other. You must spend your recreational time together...... at least 15 hours a week! You surely must make this a priority when you are trying to build up an empty love bank, hers and yours.

You not unique, your situation is not unique. My on FWS sounded almost just like you. He's been accused of being selfish and now realizes how selfish and self centered he used to be. We can't be selfish once we bring innocent lives into this hard, hurtful world we live in. Your daughters need you more than you realize and they need a two parent home with parents who love and respect each other. Yours is not a hopeless situation,just a difficult one. Difficult situations build character and help us grow when we find constructive ways to deal with them. That doesn't happen when we chose to walk away.

bump^

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have a lot of resentment harbored because of the first pregnancy. Dr Harley talks about relationships that start from affairs being very difficult to sustain. Well, mine wasn't started from an affair, but it was a result of deceit. Isn't that the same thing? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This stuck out for me, because my H used a variation of it. We had a pregnancy scare prior to our engagement. I was not pregnant. He knew this and about a month later, he said we should get married. We did NOT have a child until 4 years into our marriage... 4 years, 1 month to be exact... yet, upon d-day... all my H could say to me was that I had trapped him into marriage through pregnancy... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

So I am confused by you as well. You drifted into a marriage. By NOT deciding... you decided. AND, the other half of this issue is the feeling of entrapment. That's a choice and an attitude that you have decided by default to take.

You are a CLASSIC conflict-avoider. To avoid hurting this person who became pregnant by you but had a miscarriage, you married her because it was on the surface okay... You made an okay pair. BUT NOW YOU ARE TRAPPED... instead of OWNING up to what you have done, you shift the blame to the EXTERNAL... stuff out of your control.

So you TRY MB... but because you cannot legislate attitude, it doesn't really work.

And now you TRY something else. You even come here for OPPOSING points of view that you shoot down with missile-like precision.

My suggestion is that you pick up your backpack and wear it yourself. OWN YOUR STUFF. Figure out YOUR issues and learn to be an ADULT who fully participates in life SHARING the BURDENS and the good times.

Quit stringing your wife and children along, looking for the out w/ someone else and BE AN INDIVIDUAL who CONTROLS his OWN life and doesn't COP OUT.

Cali

Can't Think of a Name

You remind me so much of me and almost every other WS on here. You, like so many of us once were, are still in the fog. You think you are taking responsibility for your actions and yet you keep blaming others. Been there, done that, know what it looks like. You will have to realize that you are in that place on your own. Until then you will argue with any one who tells you that you are not taking responsibility.

One thing that concerns me is your kids. You say they will not be without their daddy. But they will. I know others here have told you this by let me tell you again.....a daddy, or a mommy for that matter, who is not there every night to tuck them in is not a full time parent. Therefore, the kids are without. It doesn't matter how well you think they have adjusted. This will effect them for the rest of their lives. And you probably won't even notice the effect until much later in their lives when it is much too late. Especially if you are not with them everyday to see how they act.

Another thing....of course you do not see eye to eye with Dr. Harley. He is sitting there telling you all those things we are telling you. Things you really don't want to hear right now. Things like you aren't trying hard enough, you aren't taking responsibility, what about the kids, etc.... If you have an IC that is saying something different; if you have an IC who is "taking your side", then you need to run as fast as you can from that councelor. Councelors should NOT be giving you advice. They should be giving you tools, asking you questions, making you think and work.

Your wife...is she seeing a councelor? Does she come here? Solely from what you have said here it sounds like she has some things to work out herself. I do not know if that is true or not as I believe there are 3 sides to every story and there is always some back story to deal with. Counceling helped my H and I a lot with these things. Helped us identify some of the problems and gave us the tools to work on those problems in most cases. Both as individuals and as a couple.

And while we are on the subject of you wife, there is one more thing I must say. Although I do not agree with her decision to quit work without really talking about it with you, what is done is done. Let me explain....marriage is a partnership. The two of you should have discussed her quitting work and come to a mutual agreement. I believe that she should not have just quit without that discussion. However, that said....she did quit for a good reason. That reason being your kids. I commend those who stay home to raise their kids. It's a tough job, especially when they are pre-school. She deserve a pat on the back.

You came here asking for honest opposing answers and you have received what you asked for. Some of those answers have not been very gentle. But sometimes that is what it takes to get something through a person's head. Now it is time for you to do the work you have been putting off or trying at half-heartedly. Get busy putting the effort into your relationship with your wife. Build the relationship you always wanted.

Regretting

Can't Think of a Name.....

Did you leave us? So soon? Were we too harsh for you? Did you decide to quit completely on your family? What's going on?

Regretting

I'm still here. Reading and absorbing the feedback. Thank you all for responding, no matter how harsh. I wanted to respond to some of the later posts, but know that I will just sound defensive.

I am actually printing this thread now to share with my W as she is coming over to talk on Wednesday night. I'm assuming ya'll think it is a good thing that I share this with her, right? I know some of it will hurt her, but at the same time your responses will validate her.

What is your purpose in sharing with your wife? Is any of what we are saying have an impact on you? People do not sound defensive when they are explaining a valid, thoughtful deciscion making process...people are defensive when they try to validate bad behavior with excuses.

Are you learning anything useful...or are you just using this forum to come up with fog-ese reasons for your non-decisive, avoidance lifestyle?

Reading back through this thread I see that when people call you on your behavior you come back with some luke-warm response along the lines of: that was not what you meant...or you take responsibility(in word only not deed). You have a serious issue with communicating what you mean to complete strangers who have no ulterior motive to read into what you are saying. Consider the fact that you have sold yourself a picture of your past where you are the victim...when you told plainly that is not the case...you prefer to take a revisionist stand-point...attempting to refocus your version of why you are on the right track.

I wonder are you using this thread as a coward's way out to show your wife how far gone you are...so once again you do not have to take any action...other than passive communication? Is your intent to allow her to read all the rational advice you are recieving coupled with your self-serving responses...i.e. but there is just no love for her?

Examine what your motives are...are you truly looking to heal your marriage? If that is not your intent do not torture you wife with your pitiless comments about her...and your laughable comments about your OW. You will only accomplish giving her more pain and validate the ridiculousness of behavior.

To be clear about what we all think:

You had an affair.
You are seriously irrational about it.
You are harming your wife, your children, and your marriage by your actions.
The best thing you have done so far is come to MB...to what end will be the litmus test of this action.

I know others have praised you for coming here...I reserve my praise until I see what your true motives are...if and when you show strength of character I will be first in line to shake your cyber hand...until then I can only offer you the harsh reality of your actions.

ayslyne

OK - As everyone has told me, I must be in a massive fog, because I am completely confused. Why is sharing my feelings with my wife and sharing the feedback I have recieved here a bad thing?

Everyone here says I have a problem with communication. Isn't open and honest communication with my wife a good first step?

I'd like to hear what others have to say about this.

<shrugging> Not sure if sharing thread is positive or not... guess it depends on YOUR motivation...

... is it to REINFORCE your arguments?
... is it to FACILITATE positive forward motion?

Frankly, I think using the thread is another way to PASSIVELY communicate and AVOID CONFLICT.

btw... I still want to know why you felt you started your marriage in deceit...

Cali

Can'tThink,

I have been reading this thread. I am bothered by your responses and I feel that the responses that you have received have missed what you need to hear. Now having said that, I will probably miss the target as well, BUT I am going to try.

I was struck by what you said in closing one post. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Everyone who suggested I am being selfish:
You darn right I am being selfish! I feel that I have done everything in my life for someone else. I feel like I have let my life ‘happen to me’ rather than ‘making it happen’. I need to take some ‘me time’ to make myself a better person and quit harboring all this resentment and pain. That is why I am posting here. I am fully aware that folks here are not going to agree with me, but you are giving me much food for thought and I really do appreciate that!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My response to this is "Good for you." It is about time you did this. In fact, you should have been doing this all along. Further, you have said exactly what I feel Dr. Harley would have been telling you to do.

The part that I put in bold is key. I think this sentence needs to be examined very carefully. I must tell you one of my favorite sayings that WhoDat had at the bottom of his posts: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is what I feel you are doing. I sense you want to be married. You KNOW that divorce will hurt your children. BR said it right: "they are doing their best to be good so that their family will get back together." It is not uncommon for the children to feel they were at fault. And in your case it would be true. After all you feel deceived that your first one was conceived under false pretenses. You resent the marriage because of the existance of a child. Not good.

But, I think you feel resentment and pain because you are being used by your W. She seems to have constantly made major decisions WITHOUT consulting you or taking your feelings into account. You should read the articles here on the Policy of Joint Agreement, POJA. She isn't your friend is she? She is the woman that has children and expects you to pick up the tab for them and then probably doesn't acknowledge what you are doing because you are SUPPOSED to be doing this. Further she is focused on the children and doesn't offer you much. Certainly not what the OW offered. She would talk with you, not reject your ideas. She was your friend. Sadly, all she was, was your friend and she has found someone else. She doesn't sense the pull of the marriage.

Frankly Can'tThink you are in a fix. Interestingly, while you don't like the Harley approach, I think it is the only hope. YOUR WIFE NEEDS TO REALLY REALLY READ THE MATERIAL AND EXAMINE WHY SHE HAS MADE THE DECISIONS SHE HAS WITHOUT YOUR APPROVAL. That is IF she wants this marriage to continue, grow, and prosper.

I sense what you really meant when you said you liked having her around to do things for you, is that you like the feeling of being cared for, of perhaps being loved by someone. You don't get that feeling from your W now do you?

My point here, is that you have been focusing on yourself. Both with regard to your failures, your marriage, and your W. What seems to be missing from this equations is what your W is doing to rebuild this marriage. We need to know that. It needs to be evaluated.

Finally, before I close this rather long and rambling post let me ask you something. I need your honest answer.

1. IF your W actually loved and respected you, would you be happier?

2. IF your W appreciated your efforts to even try and stay in the marriage would you be happier?

3. IF your W changed her approach to this marriage and to you could you be happier?

4. Do you realize that your children WILL be hurt if you and your W fail at this?

5. IF somehow things could be made how you want them, would you prefer to be married to your W?

Just somethings for you to think about. In short I am asking you, if you could redo the world and had to be married to your W, what would the marriage look like to you? You need to think about this.

Hope something I have said will help.

God Bless,

JL

<small>[ February 11, 2003, 12:15 PM: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</small>

I believe that sharing this thread with your wife is a good thing. Yes, you must be honest with her even if it hurts her feelings. Neither one of you will move forward in a healthy fashion if one of you isn't honest. This thread will provide touch points for discussion about many important issues which have affected your marriage.

From what you have posted it seems that a communication problem, among other problems, exists in the marriage. I believe that communication problems are a two way street, there's seldom one person who is solely responsible. Every troubled marriage has two sides to the story. It would be helpful if your wife posted here as well.

Both of you have to be willing to take a long hard look at your contributions to the demise of your marriage. You are both responsible. Without each owning their own mistakes you will never be able to build a healthy, loving, satifying marriage. MC can be extremely helpful to learn effective, fair ways of communicating.Communication is a skill, good communication doesn't happen overnight. It takes lots of practice.

Answer the question.

What is your reason for sharing the post?

To say look I am reading this and these people are making sense to me. We need to take steps to reinforce MB principles in our marriage. What is being said is valid and making me rethink my action.

OR

To allow you wife to filter what we are saying...show her there is a place where she can find support when you divorce her...while allowing her to read all the thoughtless things you write about her, your past, your feelings or lack thereof for her, and your meaningless OW...who has dumped you.

Are you allowing us to illustrate to your wife that nothing of sense or value will register with you?

To what end do you hope your "OPEN, HONEST" attitude with your wife will serve?

What is your expected result in sharing this with your wife?

I REPEAT....ARE YOU TRYING TO HEAL YOUR MARRIAGE?

ayslyne

((CTOAN))

I read through your post with utter disbelief. Since I have no positive feedback on your situation I will offer no opinion there (you know the old saying Opinions are like&#8230;&#8230;.) Anyway I did want to say that a lot of the feedback you received has been awesome and I pray that it finds it&#8217;s way into your heart.

However, there was something you posted that did bother me:

&#8220;&#8221;&#8221;&#8221;My kids will NOT be without their Dad. We have a joint custody arrangement during the separation and even have &#8220;family days&#8221;. I know it&#8217;s not perfect, but we continually talk to them about how they are feeling. They have actually adjusted to the separation better than I ever could have imagined. When living together, there was constant fighting between the sisters and between W and daughters and myself and daughters. I&#8217;m sure it was because of the tension (though W & I never argued in front of them). When I have the kids or W has kids alone, they are perfect angels. It&#8217;s a phenomenon I wasn&#8217;t expecting, but am happy it is going that way.&#8221;&#8221;&#8221;&#8221;

I challenge you to get inside the minds of your children and look through their eyes for a moment. Your thought is that their behavior has changed positively due to the separation. I don&#8217;t know them but do know that the average child&#8217;s behavior does not change positively due to a separation. That they do not interact with each other as they did previously also concerns me. WHY? Could it be that they are scared out of their mind? Could it be that the world where they found safety is gone and now they are with mom here and dad here, oh and sometimes all together. Could it be that they think that if they behave you two will reconcile? Could it be that now they are internalizing their emotions because they feel if they externalize them normally that further harm will come to the family?

It&#8217;s really easy to look at a picture with rose-colored glasses and everything is rose colored.

As far as your statement about being selfish, I can only say that I&#8217;m sorry that your children are having to pay the price for you being selfish. I&#8217;ve watched it happen before with my X. So innocent, so young, yet expected to endure so much.

WHEW! I'm glad you showed up on this thread JL! I knew you could provide clarity. Thanks for still being around after all these years. I still love to read your posts.

Hi all. I am at work now and don't have time to respond to all, but I will try to tonight.

I will quickly address a couple of things that a cropping up as themes recently in this thread.

As far as my wife goes, she is familiar with the MB principals (we went to a weekend together). She is willing to try, but I fear it is more because of her religious convictions and a fear of being seen as a failure in the eyes of her friends than a love for me. I know many of you probably think that is OK...I'm not sure how I feel about it.

As far as those that have suggested that my kids are behaving better because they are scared, you are probably right. The interesting thing is though that they have ALWAYS been like this. They are very good when only I or only W has them. They are not so good when we have them together. Not always, but it's a pretty consistant pattern. That is why I said it may be because of the tension that was there.

And yes, I am familiar with the 25 year study. And those of you who brought it up I'm sure are aware that the author was widely criticized for the small population sample that was used. I'm sure you are also aware of other studies that show that it is how the parents interact POST divorce that has the more profound affect on the children. That said, of course it is more difficult to interact cooperatively with the other parent after the pain of divorce.

As far as my motivation for sharing this with her. I guess it is just to open up a dialogue about my feelings & her feelings about the advice I have gotten here and what to do with it.

OK - got to get back to work before I get fired. I'm sure I have given ya'll enough here to rip me a new one for awhile. I'll try to address some more specific questions tonight after the kids go to bed.

Dont give us any crap about children who benefit from divorce. CRAP!!!

Now why are you switching gears? I never thought the question was: Does my wife love me? It was the fact that you don't love your wife but were just destined for the OW...you know the one who has been your long standing friend...who dumped you and wants nothing to do with you.

What reasons should your wife be motivated to work on this marriage...other than the obvious reasons: YOUR CHILDREN. Beyond that, as you are behaving now, she can look forward to a future with a man who blames her for every non-decision he has ever made...who has admitted to having no love for her...who doesn't respect her...and who is delluding himself into believing he has something else in life to look forward to. Why should she want you?

Again I ask you why share, why open up dialogue if your motivation is to distance yourself from her?

ARE YOU TRYING TO HEAL YOUR MARRIAGE?

Don't think you are teaching us anything about analytical research with you disection of a cohort study on children and divorce. Your biased facts are not impressive. We are in the trenches. We LIVE IT. We are not statistics...We're the real thing!!

You are right about one thing...children do not need people in their lives who consistantly try to disassoiciate themselves with responsibility...People who let emotion get away in the requirement of doing the right thing. It is even more tragic when that person is not a teacher, a mentor, or a friend but the child's own parent. If you continue on the path you are now on your children do not need to interact with you and your wife separately. They need not to interact with you. Period.

I await with baited breath as to what "wisdom" you will share with us. I am hoping that the man of character will hear what will are all saying and take control of your errant life.

You should shorten your name to "Can't think." This is not a slam...you are truly not thinking.

ayslyne

Folks,

Calm down. It is his life he is messing up not yours. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Seriously, he said he wanted contrary opinions, he did not say he would agree with them.

Yelling and stuff won't make him hear any better or understand any better.

I agree with most everything you all are saying to him but don't take it so personally, OK?

It is evident that he is still a little under the influence of OW. It is clear his W hasn't been the model W. What isn't clear, to me anyway, is how much of what is being mixed into this situation. That will take some time and patience to figure out, if he stays here.

Thanks for listening.

God Bless,

JL

Sorry can't calm down...always outraged at anyone who puts themselves before their children and then tries to defend it.

If it were just him and his wife...so be it. He would still make my blood boil but if there is anything in life to get up in arms about it is the lives of kids.

Thanks for trying to keep me out of stroke level hysteria!! But if I am going to pop a blood vessle I am going to do it over two kids I never met whom I think about more than their own father.

ayslyne