CTN,

Have you and Fonzee taken the EN questionnaire together and separately? Also have you each read the book his needs/her needs?

The makeup for men vs women is vast. To make one fit in the other's mold is IMHO deadly. Yet many of us do it over and over.

When I read what you prefer Fonzee to do vs how you handle things reminded me of where my H and I were last year. He runs on a totally different circuit than I do and yes, like Fonzee when there is trouble, I will pick it apart to identify the source, fix it and for me move on. I do not want to deal with an issue more than once but when it comes to stuff like an R, well I guess I can't always have my way. When I don't know how my H is digesting it as well, then you can see the cycle of frustration just building. That men from Mars, women from Venus theory starts to look pretty real.

What I had to learn was patience. What H had to learn was not to lolly gag. He knew exactly how to push my buttons and in some sadistic way, he enjoyed it. He would not admit it. It took over 10 years to get him to admit it. NOw that it is out in the open and I know who I am facing, it is much easier to handle.

I had to resort to putting my H in my situation. Know what? He did not like someone to deal with him like the way he was dealing with me. That piece of reality was an eye opener for him. For some insane reason it was ok in his mind (OWs love this info) to make life harder for me (he thought not intentionally but sometimes it was). Of course I never got forwarned of those occurances so I was usually whopped up side the head and while getting my balance make sure I didn't take myself up and over the edge. Yet he allowed himself to harp on me if I upset him in the least.

Now the tables of life are more balanced. He knows and does not do this anymore. Should an occurance happen we have a plan. Warning plan. Something called: Communication. Could be a look, a sigh and word(s), etc. But communication none the less. Highly effective and greatly underrated.

JMHO,
L.

Jeff,

I like Orchid's response. But more importantly,we are not trying to get you to make a bad investment. That is infact the whole deal about the POJA and the 4 rules of a marriage. Have you read about them, if not do so.

The idea is to make this into a sound and good investment that both of you have bought into and will prosper from. If it doesn't meet the POJA resentment builds as you now know from extensive experience and it will kill the very thing you are trying to build.

The POJA is much deeper than it appears and requires ALOT of negotiation and discussion on both of your parts. Had it been followed before, you marriage would be in good shape.

Must go.

God Bless,

JL

Orchid & JL - thanks for your posts.

Yes, we have filled out the EN questionaires and have read HN/HR...well we made it through most of our top EN's anyway. We went to a seminar and practiced these principals for 4 months. I have read most everything on this site.

I do realize that this is a good investment. The point I was trying to get to was that my heart isn't/wasn't in it. I need to get to the point where my heart is in it before they will work.

There are many things that I don't care for about the MB principals, but I realize that, in theory, they would make your marriage much better. I just need to get over that hump before I am willing to give them another shot.

Can't Think & Fonzee

I WANT you to work this out ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

You have such potential to become intimate with each other beyond your wildest dreams.....

I'm ~p u l l i n g~ for ya!

This will probably be one of those posts that I will show why I shouldn’t post without putting more thought in to it.

I keep telling myself that Jeff had to have loved me at one time, he just can’t remember how it felt or when he felt it, right? I mean how could anyone say the things he’s said, do the things he’s done, and treat me the way he’s treated me for that long and never ever really have had any feelings for me? He is an awesome actor if he’s done just that for this long. He’s not only fooled me but many of our friends and family are struck by what is going on here, others have looked to us and thought we had something good. Some I even worry about, especially our daughters….if what we have had is not real…then what is?

Is there a time that I should just stop trying? He tells me that his voice has never been heard in our marriage…am I doing that again? How many times does he have to tell me that he doesn’t love me or care for me, never has, never will, never never never…before I hear it and believe it? I am beginning to understand how one’s negative attitude can bring another down. That’s what I did for years to him, I had such a negative attitude and it rubbed off on him. Now I feel better about myself and have a new attitude and want to bring him back up…it’s harder to reverse the bad.

I certainly don’t mean to be negative here today, but I probably sound like that. I certainly don’t want to give the impression that I’m giving up, because I really don’t want to give up. I still really feel that Jeff is still confused, that’s where I get my hope.

Looking forward to what you all have to say to this post…thanks for caring…fonzee

Fonzee,

I think you need to understand some things. One, feelings change. So trust what he is saying to you now. But, also realize that he is seeing his own world differently right now. THat can and does often change.

If for example he is going through withdrawal from the OW, then it is normal for him to feel this way about the past and his marriage. The human brain is an amazing instrument. If in fact he always felt this way, and still treated you as well as he did, imagine what might happen if you actually became attuned to him and he you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> No flat spot in your house would be safe. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

The point is feelings do change. Interpretations of feelings change, but facts do not. No matter how he now feels about the past, the fact is he did his best as an H and a father. These are good things Fonzee not bad.

You two hang in there, OK?

God Bless,

JL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> How many times does he have to tell me that he doesn’t love me or care for me, never has, never will, never never never…before I hear it and believe it? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Whoa there. I have never said I don't care for you. I do care for you very much. The guilt I have for putting you through this is incredible. I suppose it would be easier to just go through life the way we have for 10 years, but that has taken a toll on me.

I also never said "never will" unless it was in a heated arguement close to our "D-Day". I certainly have not said that over and over. If I truely believed never will, why would I be here reading and posting? I have said "I don't know" and there is a big difference.

As JL said, people change, and my attitude is changing.

Fonzee, I should probably talk to you before I post it out here, but I want to run a theory by you. You seem to get depressed and have these negative thoughts when I have had the kids for a couple of nights. You have admitted that the kids became your life and you ignored the marriage (as did I). Could your negative thoughts be a result of not being around the kids. I have honestly thought several times during all of this that your biggest fear is not that you won't have me, but that you won't have the kids 100% of the time. Please take a moment and examine if there is even a glimmer of truth to that.

Thank you both very much for making me think some more.

JL-You made me laugh as well as think! You’re absolutely right, feelings do change…I should know, I’ve been there too so I shouldn’t believe that Jeff’s feelings can’t change. So you’re right…if he could treat me as well as I think he has and didn’t even have the feelings he could possibly get for me, the best is yet to come. (Patience and persistence.)

Jeff-Thank you for your post too. You are very correct…I do not want to live the rest of our marriage as we have been…I want us to get past all of this together and be better, happier, healthier and more in love than ever. I do get excited to see you post here and I do have lots of hope from reading your posts and I know you’re still not sure but it is a good sign that you continue to read and post and think. I just don’t want you to feel pressured by me, so sometimes I wonder if I’m doing the right thing by always wanting to talk about “us”. I guess I may have just answered my own question, somewhat…I need to focus more on you and listening to you and not so much on us, right now. (does that make sense?)

You make a good point about me becoming depressed after being away from the girls for a while. Maybe that’s true…maybe because that’s when I have the most time to think and read and wonder. I do think I know the answer to your question regarding is it you I want to be with or is it because I’m afraid of not having the girls 100% of the time. It’s definitely you! Sometimes I start to feel guilty because I don’t feel like I get you alone enough…and that I want more alone time with you. I guess I’m realizing what I was missing by not taking time to be alone with you before.

I remember before we had kids and I was worried about having kids, because I loved you so much and I felt so loved by you that I was worried if we brought a kid into all of it that we’d have to share that love and I wouldn’t get as much from you or have as much to give you. I think that’s exactly what happened; however I now realize that it’s possible to have both, IF we both want it and choose it. I’m sorry that I didn’t choose it for a long time and you suffered because of it. Please forgive me for that and let me show you now that I have much more to give YOU than I ever thought possible.

Just Learning,
I just found your responds, that I had posted on the wrong thread, I did not, it was posted to who I did, just that the page ended when I did reply.

So it wasn't for Jeff, and it happened that way.
I did nothing wrong. I realize that you are responding to Jeff, there are alot of people on this one thread. So expand your mind to that. Look back at page 3. You will see who I was responding to. Case closed......... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />