Up and down, down and up we go. It's still grinding away in me, I still find the whole thing just so difficult and hard to accept and to live with. WW still regularly emotionally and verbally abusing me (less so, admittedly, but on the other hand more consciously, given the MC sessions and her knowledge/understanding of the way she operates), tries to make me trip up, to make me fail. Like, winding daughter up, then going to the bathroom without giving her a good night hug, locking the door and having a relaxing bath, then accusing me of being a bad father who isn't even able to put daughter to sleep, as she is of course screaming for mummy! Or, putting me in front of situations where, whichever way I go, I end up with egg on my face. Like, my mom called to say she was planning to come over to London… WW ranting away about her, telling how she would fly out to France to see a friend so she doesn’t have to see her. I then called mother and said, sorry thanks, but not right now please, we need our own space. WW's reaction? She was hugely pissed at me. Why, I still don’t know. But for sure, if my mother would have been with us, I would get the fallout from that visit for another decade or so. Mission f***ing impossible, if you ask me. At the MC, we do make progress, however. But I find it really difficult, and am absolutely exhausted after each session. I did learn however, to communicate my emotions and not to bottle them up and withdraw. For example, about a week ago, I let my emotions go pretty freely, showing & telling my wife that I'm absolutely starving from lack of affection, s*x, and the lot. That, if I look myself in the mirror, I don’t like what I see. Mr Optimistic Can-Do-All, Mr Big Swinging D**k, Mr Universe Man is gone, all I see now is a failed guy with a dead cold look in his eyes. My wife was pretty shaken by my outpour, maybe the first time realising that she cant deny me having emotions, and realising the impact of her actions. And then in yesterday's session, she told about her time with OM... how beautifully they connected on an emotional level, how the s*x came so naturally, how fulfilled she was, like she never was with me. That [censored]. I'll f**ing destroy him. All wrong, of course, but it sure will make me feel good. Well, you get it from the tone of my post here, I just find that all still so incredibly hurting and degrading. Every day I ask myself: why? what have I done to deserve this? Before, about 11 month ago @ d-day (yippie, we soon have an anniversary here), I just was a betrayed spouse. Now I feel like a BETRAYED spouse. WW giving me the crumps for 3 years or longer, me being the handyman around the house, the guy who gets the groceries, who looks that the credit cards are regularly paid off, who makes sure that all her relatives have a nice house or apartment, who is baby sitting whenever convenient, who is the taxi driver, and most importantly, they guy who is to blame in case something (anything, really) goes wrong. Whilst Madame puts all her positive emotions, feelings in another basket and glows from double attention and fulfilment she gets in various departments. In plain English: throwing for years all the cr*p in my face, while having generally a very good time herself. During this time I always knew something was wrong, tried and tried and tried... and was made to fail, over and over again. And, out of frustration and not understanding, surely made mistakes myself too, yes, guilty as charged. I really feel utterly betrayed, like being robbed of 3 years of my life, supposedly the best period in a man's life, or so they say. And to top it all: Found OM's number in the redial store of our home phone about a week ago… Maybe it was just a one-off, maybe they didn’t really speak, but she just dialled the number, maybe our daughter punched some random number into the phone... yeahh, yeahh, sure, and Elvis is alive. Were they in contact all along using secure means evading my snooping but wasn't careful for once? Maybe, maybe, maybe. But then again, brief glimpses of her being sweet to me, not really fulfilling any of my needs, but just enough for me not to run away screaming, glimpses of her being in personal distress not being able to handle her emotions. I still care, why I don't know, that's why it's all so unbelievably hard. Still don’t know where the journey is heading, really. Part of me wants to move out prontissimo, to finish and bury the relationship once and for all. Cut the losses, so to speak. The other part is full of the MB garble, plan A and the works, a bit of hope, and maybe there's a change and recovery just around the corner, and if I look hard enough, yes, there's a tiny little weeny grain of positiveness from her side which is actually just good enough for me to stay. What a fool.

Thay was a good vent, Nick. I validate you, man.

No, you are not a fool. Your daughter will reassure you of this over and over as she grows. Yea, you'll be a fool for awhile when she's in her teens, but then when she's, say, about 24, she'll be amazed at how much you've learned in the past several years.

Let's go have a pint, huh?

WAT

Hey Nick,

Make that two pints. I respect you for hanging in there and fighting for what's right. You are the Man for keeping in there. Props.

-Luki

Dear Nick

It is damn hard isn't it? But you have the chance to try and repair your M, know that you are doing everything that you can, come here to rant and rave and realise you are not a fool - you are a good person, and a wonderful husband and father.

Take care of yourself, oh and perhaps it could be 3 pints, if girls are allowed to join in!!

Lisa

Nick:

I really feel for you. I share the feelings in your heart. It hurts like a knife is being stuck into your chest.

Be careful! You might have to face that there is continued contact with the OM especially given her rants with you. That was the pattern my WS used to justify his actions right after or before contact.

Also, its helpful to remember, like Steve H. told me, that her attraction to the OM is like an addiction. This in reference to her comments on how good it has felt with him. Make sure that you have a MC that is sensitive to this so that your WS does not feel entitled in her revelations about the OM. That is part of a sickness with her and should be viewed as such by the counselor. That is not to say that you do not have your marital issues that need to be addressed. However, it is not OK for her to feel OK about her addiction and to be supported in that by a MC. Does your MC believe in MB principles? Many of them do not.

Nick-

Your perserverance and determination are truly remarkable!! There's no question that, regardless of how this situation turns out, you'll be able to look back and know that you did all you could. The good thing, of course, is that you still have Plan B to fall back on when you can't take the Bull$h!+ anymore. Why do you put up with it? I'm guessing your W has lots of qualities that you admire and look for in a women and you've got these wonderful children together. It's a noble cause chief, so hang in there! Good luck and god bless!!

Nick123,

I admire your strength. I know if I wait long enough my WW could be back but I know the journey is very narrow and long. I refused to wait and rightly so since she is still in her deep fog and I have to protect my 2 D. Nick, you have to follow 4 rules of recovery otherwise you are more likely to have A than your W. You know what could have been and you are seeking for better M. Ditto mimi. Get counseling with MB before it is too late.

-rh-

Nick,

I'm sorry to hear of what's happening to you.

I am worried though. Others may not agree, but I think you may be carrying on your Plan A too long. Your wife has learned she can treat you in any way and you will take it. I'm afraid allowing this treatment will kill your feelings for her. The behavior you describe is abusive, period. I don't know how you can sit there in counseling and take it as she describes how sympatico things are with OM.

<strong>And then in yesterday's session, she told about her time with OM... how beautifully they connected on an emotional level, how the s*x came so naturally, how fulfilled she was, like she never was with me. That [censored]. I'll f**ing destroy him. </strong>

It makes me want to barf, especially the s*x part. Your counselor witnesses this and doesn't intervene? <strong> What was his reaction? </strong> But don't blame OM. It is your W who continues to treat you in a shabby way.

<strong>Part of me wants to move out prontissimo, to finish and bury the relationship once and for all. Cut the losses, so to speak. The other part is full of the MB garble, plan A and the works, a bit of hope, and maybe there's a change and recovery just around the corner, and if I look hard enough, yes, there's a tiny little weeny grain of positiveness from her side which is actually just good enough for me to stay. What a fool. </strong>

I'd feel alot better if you'd spent the money for at least one session to speak to Steve about your plan. Plan A is not meant to go on for a year in the face of verbal and emotional abuse. I believe Steve recommends a max of six months, and in reality many are far shorter. You are accepting your W's abusive treatment which gives her no incentive to change. It is like putting up with tantrums from a child. I'd be surprised if Steve would have recommended that you still be living with W at this time with the behavior you describe. I would seek his advice, if only for one session.

I think it's admirable that you try so hard for D, but what kind of a message are you sending to D about how men and women treat each other? She's learning about relationships from how you and W interact and she will play that out in her adult relationships- we all do. I'm concerned that she is witnessing something very unhealthy.

Nick, ironically separation and really putting your foot down may be the only thing that could be a cold wakeup call to your W. You seem terrified to do that. Can you look into your heart and figure out why?

I think your W's periodic sweetness is just WW behavior to keep you on the hook while she continues to be a WW. I don't know what the extent of her contact with OM is- although from your recent discovery it seems there might be some- but it's clear she still romanticizes and fantasizes about him. She is still very cruel to you and withholds love. For recovery to occur, she must be remorseful and wanting to save her M. Although she is attending counseling with you, I question from her behavior that she truly wants to save her M.

Just remember- you've learned alot about relationships from your experience on MB. You are a good decent man with alot to offer the right woman. There is a woman out there who would love to have your kisses, hugs and ILY's. The question is, is it your WW?

Sorry if this is negative. I think you are trying desperately hard, but in the end I fear you may only be enabling your W. I also am concerned about this MC. What is his take on her behavior?

Hi Nick,

have been wondering how you've been - just sorry to hear it's still so tough for you. Your perserverance and ability to find and see the good in your wife is a true inspiration.

One piece of advice that has helped me enormously from my one and only counselling session with Steve Harley was this - maybe it will help you:

Consider how, when and in what circumstances you would move to Plan B.

It seemed really strange to me at first when he asked me to seriously think about and plan out a Plan B at the end of my session. After all he had spent most of it suggesting that I should stay in Plan A for as long as I could...

I asked about it on here and one wise old sage who has counselled a lot with Steve told me that what Steve was trying to get me to do was to validate my decision to stay in Plan A. To look at the complete opposite of what my gut feeling was telling me to do.

I did it and realised that for me staying in plan A right now was the right thing to be doing. Every time that things were bad (and I have been lucky in that my W has never given me a hard time like yours) I went back over my Plan B to check I was still right in plan A-ing.

Just a thought - maybe it will help you too. You certainly deserve some results but it does seem to me - particularly given the likely telephone call - that your WW and OM are back in contact.

Remember when you said you were pretty sure that your WW and OM were not in contact yet your Plan A didn't seem to be having any effect? And I suggested that maybe, just maybe they had agreed between them to NC so that they your WW could "work" on your M - and likely to see how they both felt about each other. You were going to ask her whether this was the case? Did you ever get a chance / answer?

I know this goes against the MB principles but in my situation I am glad (in a strange sort of way) that WW didn't stop contact with OM because of me. I think (and again this is all our situation only) that she would have held on to her romanticised view of OM... absence making the heart grow fonder and all that...

How can you use this to help you? I'm not sure but perhaps it could be a topic for counselling - which it is great that she is still attending btw.

Anyway I'll stop rabbiting - keep us updated and use this place to rant to your hearts content.

bowd

Nick,

Just a questtion. Do you have a time frame to reevaluate this sitation? Decide to go to Plan B or Plan Dv? One, thing I have seen the people that counsel with the Harley's have is a timeframe for reevaluation.

This cannot go on indeterminately. It should go on until you just want to kill her. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> It should be evaluated and a rational decision to stay or go made, BEFORE you get to the point of wanting create mayham on a grand scale.

Make a plan Nick and stick to it.

God Bless,

JL

Nick -- Your post was very disturbing for me hearing that WW was still blaming you for everything. I thought it would kill me to go to plan B, but it has not. I have struggled and still do, but it has removed me from the constant blaming by WH.

I believe that there is a chance your WW is back in contact. If you've made changes that WW is acknowledging but is still unable to really recommit and is still behaving toward you as she is, that is a possibility.

We've probably covered this ground in earlier posts, but remind us whether WW had these behaviors - anger, blaming, grasping at straws to make you the bad guy (significantly, intermittently, or not at all) prior to the A.

You must have incredible patience to continue on as you have and I applaud your tenacity in staying with this. BUT, you are not superhuman. At some point enough is enough with not getting any needs met AND enduring constant criticism and blame. You must have very strong and beautiful memories of your M and your WW before the A to do everything you have done.

It's easy for me to say to you that plan B seems appropriate. However, I know that it was hard for me to fathom and initially implement. I kept thinking if only I had done more in plan A - I can look back now and know that had little to do with WH's behavior/he had gone back into contact and as much as that was hard to comprehend, it explained a lot of the behavior.

Take care Nick. (I didn't know they served anything shaken and stirred at the fog & fence pub - I was under the impression that the F&F was an all beer establishment).

Hey everybody! Thanks for letting me vent & rant. Below a few thoughts to questions & points you guys have raised. But before I go into the details, let me say that I was really touched by all of you, by your understanding and thoughtful feedback. Thanks guys!

<strong> WAT </strong> - Thanks man. Yes, it was a rant, and a good one, wasn&#8217;t it. Feel a bit better now, especially after the pint!
<strong> Luki </strong> - Are you guys trying to make me drunk or something?
<strong> Lisa </strong> - Yes it's hard. Girls welcome? Hint: check out what's written on the Yorkie Bars.
<strong> Mimi </strong> - Thanks for your empathy. I know about the dangers re. contact with OM. Been there, got the t-shirt. Your following point made me think: "However, it is not OK for her to feel OK about her addiction and to be supported in that by a MC." I will bear it in mind - v good point indeed, spot on. The MC wasn&#8217;t aware of Harley, but he isn't too bad nevertheless. I mean, I trust him and my wife trusts him, and he seems to be a pro. And, to be fair, I think we made a bit of progress. It's just sometimes when the whole flashback hits me like a hammer.
<strong> Litchfield </strong> : re. perseverance & determination. Call it the alpine granite in my head. Yes, my W has lots of qualities which I basically admire, that's what keeps me in this relationship. But the current situation is hardly stable. More thoughts about plan B further down.
<strong> Redhat </strong> - thanks, will check out the 4 rules again. What you write about "you are more likely to have an A than your W" is absolutely true. I mean, if a woman would come to me right now, give me comfort, understanding, affection and s*x, I would probably move out faster than WW can say "OM". That's what happened to Luki, right? Looks btw like you took the right decision at the time. What&#8217;s the relationship between your W and the daughters now?
<strong> Espoir </strong> - Thanks Espoir. I always appreciate your view, particularly because you're not afraid of hitting me on the head! Your post, as your previous ones, made me think and (re-) evaluate.
- "Your counselor witnesses this [the situation where WW described how rosy and beautiful life and s*x was with OM] and doesn't intervene? What was his reaction?" actually, it was him who led us on the slippery slope of discussing the s*x part. It was the first time we did this, and we are in session #12 or so now. As you saw from my rant, it is very painful for me, however, these are demons and emotions I have to face I think. Simply pretending it didn't happen, it isn't there, isn't going to work. At this point, however, I'm not sure myself whether I'm ready to face this. Probably not. But again, the MC was maybe just 'probing' this - admittedly - very uncomfortable area.
- "You are accepting your W's abusive treatment which gives her no incentive to change. It is like putting up with tantrums from a child" OK OK OK each time you tell me 'ceterum censeo' to call Steve, each time I sort of think about it, manana, manana&#8230; and don&#8217;t do it. I know, I should do it.
- "Nick, ironically separation and really putting your foot down may be the only thing that could be a cold wakeup call to your W. You seem terrified to do that. Can you look into your heart and figure out why?" Very good point, Espoir, and these are my thoughts:
1. We have started the MC process - still early days, but by moving out I feel I would torpedo this process
2. Plan B would essentially mean me moving out. Living in the same house but not speaking with each other is a bit ridiculous. And she certainly won't move out.
3. Look, I'm scared of plan B. She was my first relationship, I was her first relationship. We were both virgins when we met. Isnt that extraordinary in these times? We spent virtually all of our adult lives so far together. The prospect of slicing & cutting us apart is hurting and scary. She has become so much a part of me.
4. Add to that the fact that I'm a really bad loser. So far, whatever I tried and did in my life I've achieved or over-achieved. This is the first time where I risk losing out, that's what makes it difficult for me too.

- "She still romanticizes and fantasizes about him. She is still very cruel to you and withholds love. For recovery to occur, she must be remorseful and wanting to save her M". At this point she says, "she can't give me love" (as opposed to "she doesn&#8217;t want to give me love"). Not sure if that's true, but suppose she wants but cant?

- "Although she is attending counseling with you, I question from her behavior that she truly wants to save her M.". True. Remember, that getting her to join me to Counselling was already not a small achievement. She always understood the there might be more than one possible outcome of the process, that she wasn't sure what she wants etc etc. Emotionally, she is clearly hedging her bets. Am I feeding her indecision? I think you are right.

<strong> Bowd </strong> - Hear you. OK, will give him a call, finally.
"Remember when you said you were pretty sure that your WW and OM were not in contact yet your Plan A didn't seem to be having any effect? And I suggested that maybe, just maybe they had agreed between them to NC so that they your WW could "work" on your M - and likely to see how they both felt about each other. You were going to ask her whether this was the case? Did you ever get a chance / answer?" Still working on that one. I told her, I don&#8217;t trust her if she really dropped contact (knowing that she didn&#8217;t), told her that I want to know how they finished. She was evasive, but I will continue this strand.

- "I know this goes against the MB principles but in my situation I am glad (in a strange sort of way) that WW didn't stop contact with OM because of me. I think (and again this is all our situation only) that she would have held on to her romanticised view of OM... absence making the heart grow fonder and all that..." that was always the problem here, as OM lives in san fran, far away!

<strong> JL </strong> - re timeframe: D-Day anniversary will certainly be a watershed date.

<strong> USH </strong> " I believe that there is a chance your WW is back in contact. If you've made changes that WW is acknowledging but is still unable to really recommit and is still behaving toward you as she is, that is a possibility." Agree, this is the most likely scenario.
"We've probably covered this ground in earlier posts, but remind us whether WW had these behaviors - anger, blaming, grasping at straws to make you the bad guy (significantly, intermittently, or not at all) prior to the A." No, it came with the A really. However, it may have started earlier, based on my behaviour. E.g., disappointments in me when my actions didn&#8217;t met her expectations. That surely was the start of her anger. But her all-out blaming me really kicked off with the Affair.
- "You must have incredible patience to continue on as you have and I applaud your tenacity in staying with this. BUT, you are not superhuman. At some point enough is enough with not getting any needs met AND enduring constant criticism and blame. " I developed some stress coping mechanisms, some of which bad, which help me. Basically, to numb my brain I either run for 15-20 miles or so, or have a nice bottle of claret, preferably both.
- " (I didn't know they served anything shaken and stirred at the fog & fence pub - I was under the impression that the F&F was an all beer establishment)." For special customers, we serve some strong stuff too!

Nick,
just a quick one... I had forgotten that the OM lived abroad though of course that is one of your issues re your D...

One question - has your WW ever actually spent any time "living" with the OM? As opposed to just spending what I would term "holiday time"?

I know that when my W spent two seperate weeks with the OM at our house (he lives East coast US)that was when she realised that he was not someone that she wanted to spend the rest of her life with... up until then it had all been "holiday time". Funnily the first 10 days he was over she couldn't stand to be in the house with him - so guess what? They ran off on holiday for a week.

Again not sure how this helps you and apologies if it doesn't. Just thinking aloud.

Enjoy the claret <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<strong> bowd </strong> "has your WW ever actually spent any time "living" with the OM? As opposed to just spending what I would term "holiday time"?"
No, she didn't! they knew each other from university where they were in the same house (but that was a long time, say 12 y ago); apart ftom that they never were together for more than a week.

<strong> WAT </strong> I tried to find the '4 rules of recovery'; couldnt find them. did you mean the '4 rules of communication' (or whatever they are called)?

Nick,
Your response did clarify things for me. I hope I didn't sound too blunt or tough. I'm trying to be thought provoking but I don't want to cross the line.

I think your MC is treading on some dangerous ground by bringing up her s$x life with OM. It creates a dangerous trigger to hear her talking about that. Remember Nick, if things with OM were so perfect, she would be with him now (despite daughter- they would work it out somehow). And remember as well, forbidden s$x often has an excitement and allure due to the fact that it is, forbidden. But it seems to me, that rather than focusing on how the s$x was with OM, he needs to be focusing, in a positive way, on how to bring the two of you closer together. How to improve s$x between the two of you.

<strong>each time you tell me 'ceterum censeo' to call Steve, each time I sort of think about it, manana, manana… and don’t do it. I know, I should do it. </strong>
What do you have to lose Nick, except a few dollars (which you seem to be able to afford) and some time? It may not be the solution but it probably can't hurt. Maybe you're concerned he will tell you to go to Plan B and you're not ready for that? Steve is not a dogmatic person- he will give you recommendations but in a very respectful way.

Reading your explanations make me understand better why you are holding on tight. But I wonder, does your wife know how much she is hurting you? I know you blunt the pain with exercise and wine. Do you think your wife realizes truly that one day you might decide you've had enough and leave? Or do you tend to bottle up your feelings? Have you ever sat down and talked respectfully- W, do we have an M here worth saving, given your inability to feel love for me? Our situation makes me really sad and I don't know how long I can endure.

I think the MC is a good step, it's good that she is willing to go, but you're still a long way from a "remorseful" spouse who wants to save her marriage. I'm surprised that your MC isn't picking up on it. Has your MC ever said anything to W, like, the way you're speaking to Nick, I'm surprised he's still at your side? One of the most helpful things our MC did for me was to point out to my H "Do you hear the condescending way in which you are speaking to her?" He challenged my H and it was really helpful.

How does W feel about your 15 mile runs? Is it a lovebuster to her?

You've mentioned previously that you were seeing some improvements in your relationship with MC. Is that still true? In terms of the mechanics of how you relate to each other.

Hi Espoir,

Many thanks for your feedback. No worries, I really appreciate *a lot* any thought-provoking input. In your replies you asked a few questions, which I'm happy to elaborate further (and at the same time reflecting and thinking about&#8230; as your questions, as always, made me think!)

<strong> I think your MC is treading on some dangerous ground by bringing up her s$x life with OM. It creates a dangerous trigger to hear her talking about that.</strong>
True. To be fair, he touched upon it during maybe 5-10 mins, and it was the first time in maybe a dozen or so sessions. Most of the time he is trying to focus on our relationship, how she & I relate to. Yes, it was a huge trigger, and reacted accordingly.

<strong> What do you have to lose Nick, except a few dollars (which you seem to be able to afford) and some time? </strong>
Yes, will finally do it. Tried to schedule an appt today, Steve seems to be on hols though, duh! But a phone conv is only a question of logistics now.

<strong> But I wonder, does your wife know how much she is hurting you. Do you think your wife realizes truly that one day you might decide you've had enough and leave? Or do you tend to bottle up your feelings? </strong>
Don't know. I hope she does. I'm not constantly showing these feelings of course (I mean, I cant constantly rave like a lunatic and cry like a baby), but occasionally I do.
Re me moving out: About a fortnight ago we had an argument, which predicably ended with her saying as usual: Look, we just don&#8217;t fit with each other, we're emotionally too different, we're not connecting (like she did with OM), bla bla bla. To which I've said: OK. Fine. You're actually absolutely right. Next Saturday I'm moving out. That rattled her, and suddenly it was her being nice to me, and me re-iterating, no dahling, you were right, I'll move out. (Well, I didn't at the end).

<strong> Have you ever sat down and talked respectfully- W, do we have an M here worth saving, given your inability to feel love for me? </strong>
Her answer to similar questions is - don&#8217;t pressure me, currently I cant, sorry I can't, do whatever it's best for you, etc etc. But that was a v good question of yours, very fundamental actually, and I need to ask it.

<strong> I think the MC is a good step, it's good that she is willing to go, but you're still a long way from a "remorseful" spouse who wants to save her marriage. I'm surprised that your MC isn't picking up on it. </strong>
Of course he did. It's all step-by-step. Initially, WW said she'd come to MC to help me. Then it was to help her understand more. Then it was MC asking what is the goal? I said reconciliation, she said, she doesn&#8217;t know yet. We were there a couple of times, each time the MC tried to nudge her to a common goal - in vain. Also, everytime I tried to push her to a committment (at MC's session) he pushed *me* back, basically saying I shouldn't force the issue, that first we need to be able to see how we operate, learn to safely communicate etc, before we can solve for good the relationship.

<strong> Has your MC ever said anything to W, like, the way you're speaking to Nick, I'm surprised he's still at your side? </strong> His problem (maybe) is that he generally avoids taking sides (maybe rightly so). However, he focused many times and highlighted through numerous examples her inherent blame towards me and anger towards me. By inference he pointed out your question, but not straight (as he maybe should?).

<strong> How does W feel about your 15 mile runs? Is it a lovebuster to her? </strong>
Didn&#8217;t ask, and frankly, even if it was, so be it. I mean, it's an elementary coping mechanism for me at the moment. Also, I frequently run to/from work (from the City to Wimbledon) which is about 10miles; I do it in a bit over an hour as compared to taking the tube which takes an hour too. Which is less a reflection of my state of fitness and more a reflection of the sad state of the London Tube <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<strong> You've mentioned previously that you were seeing some improvements in your relationship with MC. Is that still true? In terms of the mechanics of how you relate to each other. </strong>
Yes. We are now certainly much more aware of the destructive mechanism we are engaging, like triggers she pushes in me, and I push in her. Which, on the other hand, makes it especially hurting if she abuses me emotionally, despite now the firm and proven knowledge of what she is doing. Now, it can't be a "sorry hon but I didn&#8217;t know you are feeling this that way", but it's simply a deliberate attempt to hurt me.

Bottom line is that I'm still waiting for a clear signal of commitment from her side, an attempt and willingness to answer my ENs, a sign of remorse and a belief that together we can make it. I do believe that her relationship with OM is finished, but that certain warm feelings and "what would have happened if"s remain. I also do believe that, whilst she knows that her relationship with OM is a non-starter and not an attractive option, that she is unsure whether to (re-)try it with me. She therefore can't commit emotionally to me. Now, plans A or B are useful in the case of an ongoing contact in an affair&#8230;. However, I think we have passed that stage. But, we're not in recovery. Rather, we're sort of in limbo-land between a completed and (almost) exhausted affair, and a true recovery. And that limbo state is true for her as it is for me - I am full of anger, disappointment, disbelief, hopelessness and frustration, as my original post on this thread has shown.

Thank you for your input.
N

<small>[ February 10, 2003, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: Nick123 ]</small>

Today's MC session: discussing things we love to do in common and things we want to have in our relationship etc, good matches, would you believe it (!). At some point WW started crying, becacuse
her younger brother died this day exactly 2 y ago. I tried to console her, she pushed me
away. Not the first time - what can I do if she doesnt *let* me help? MC found this strange (me too).
Coming home, checking the re-dial log of the phone (bad boy), guess what, she called OM today. Feeling absolutely rotten, barely human. Have scheduled a phone call with Harley for mid next week; WW flying out sunday to visit a friend (F) in France for a couple of days. Her niece now with us for a year or so as an au-pair; I invited her, paid the plane fare etc etc etc as usual being the good Samaritan. Sorry for being slightly incohereht, but I'm mad as hell. Plan B a definite reality - just cant bear being screwed left right and centre anymore. Why did she call? She says "because I felt sad". Well, f**king hell, talk to me then and dont push me away. Bizarre.

Have all a merry Valentines (!) Day.

Hi Nick, it's pretty quiet around here on weekend's just us Uk'ers with no Baseball to watch <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Sorry friend that you are having such a ****ty time. It's so utterly draining.

Ready through this latest news on your sitch I am afraid that you are going to go under with the strain of it. This Nick is where I got to earlier this year. I was trying to Plan A, had in fact been Plan A'ing longer than Harley told me too. But it did no good. My W hates me. I am not talking about a snide comment I am talking ****ing furious over the things I have tried to do to repair my M. It became to much.

Now how am I relating to your story? Well I see in what you have written a lot about how I felt. I really must advise you get some C with Harley. He really helped me in a lot of ways, and I truly think that a couple both wanting to be in recovery would succeed under his help. But we are not in that place. So he would advise you how to get there and more importantly how to protect yourself.

This hurt you are suffering gradually becomes crippling, debilitating and destroys your self esteem. Guard against it, and that imho means Plan B. Even in Plan B my W is hurting me constantly with her actions and words because of interaction over the children. It's very hard.

Your wife isn't going to give you a chance, she has her cake and she is bloody well enjoying it sir....

Sorry if this is Harsh, but you are going to get hurt big time if you allow this to continue.

Neil.

dear Nick, sorry I didn't respond to your previous post- I didn't see your response to me. Anyway, I'll post a response shortly- just got back from NYC's antiwar rally and I desperately need a hot cup of tea! Sorry to hear of these developments.

Thanks Porsche, you're spot on of course. Maybe I wanted to trust WW too much and combined with hope it led to wishful thinking. You write about how "this hurt you are suffering gradually becomes crippling, debilitating and destroys your self esteem" - that's exactly where I am. Do you know when I heard the last time some affectionate words? Was shown some sign of admiration? Got some TLC? Experienced some true intimacy? Even after 11 months (since D-day) it is still all just so hard to take in. It may sound like the old cliché, but my heart is torn to shreds, literally. During the last year I've picked myself up from the floor many times, those of you who followed my thread since the start know what I mean. But now, I don&#8217;t think I can. I guess that means I'm ready for plan B.
I have scheduled a phone call with S Harley for Wednesday. Only thing I havent figured out yet completely is the plan B logistics. She won't move out. Means, that I would have to. I don&#8217;t think I can do plan B whilst living in the same house. Anyways, these are logistical details, and surely Harley will give some good suggestions.