they didn't want to betray the OW? by being with you and didn't want anything to do with you physically? My H. wants me to understand that he doesn't want to betray her and thinks it is commendable because he isn't lying to her about being involved with me. Even tho we were together all weekend except at night and I went to his mother's for dinner with him. Does this make any sense to anyone? I am defiantely going to plan b.he has no idea how disrespectful this is to me and says that mnarriage is more than a piece of paper. Well I understand that! I'm not stupid, but I just told him I guessed he was married to her then. He just doesn't have a clue how I feel and wants me to make amends for what I did during his affair with the 1st OW, by writing to her H. And he had gotten into my e-mail last fall and had read some things which were not nice on my part, but now he re read them and highlighted things and wants me to go over them and see why they bother him so much. I have apologized for the things I did wrong and I am not doing those things now but he just won't quit. I think this is a lot more than the fog and I am thinking he has a definate personality disorder. He is passive agressive, but I just don't get where he is coming from at all. And he gets upset because I don't get it and don't want to get it. He says since I wanted him to stop lying to me which he didn'r anyway, that he thought I would be glad that he didn't want to lie to the OW. I don't give a rat's A** if he lies to her. He is anyway. She doesn't know anything about hte first OW and anything about us going to counseling or trying to get back together. So it is mainly the physical that he doesn't want to lie about. He does not want sex with me because it is cheating on her! I can't handle talking to him anymore-he acts so rational- it is scary. He really believes what he is saying and doesn't care what anyone thinks about it. But he is going to 2 dif counselors now. So if he doesn't care why is he going? I don't really think our marriage or our piece of paper marriage has a chance. Mainly because he won't give it a chance.

<small>[ February 09, 2003, 06:09 PM: Message edited by: day by day ]</small>

If I write a plan b letter should I write one to his OW? that seems to be what the Harley's advise to do but with my WS it would be ahuge LB. He is afraid I am going to be vindictive because she knows nothing about his previous affair and why we split up or any counseling etc we have done. ?So in his eyes it would be to break them up and not to help us. I really don't know what to do at this point but know for my own dignity I have to have no contact with him. He is dragging me under making me feel like nothing with the way he disrespects me and our marriage and not wanting to give her up.

My WH said the same thing...didn't want to cheat on his "new love" Pul-leeze! Gimme a break!

I slept with him anyway...saying...I just want to show you how much I do love you....

He said, "How can you do this?"

I said, "Easy! It's me keeping my vows. I'm not the one who's cheating! In my mind, I'm showing the man I care about exactly what he's about to throw away!"

She's history and I'm here! What I actually won only time will tell....hopefully I won't get zonked! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Your WH's fog appears to be very thick to me! Sheesh!

Someone may correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't plan B about protecting what love that YOU have left for WH? Meaning that a possible LB to him means less than protecting what's in your love bank for him?

For myself, OW and I got together and talked freely about WH...to keep him from playing us both for fools. I answered her questions truthfully, and let her and he make their own choices and let the chips fall where they may...

Boy was he ticked! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

But I do feel that it was more a pre-emptive strike, and tons better then letting him get away with more crap....if he was choosing her, why worry about LB's?

Helen, Thanks for your reply, It gives me something to think about. I guess it's kind of like a veiled threat from him, If you talk to her, then I will leave you for sure. being manipulated by him. You're lucky? maybe, I guess LOL, he wanted to touch you. My H. won't at all. The last time was 2 weeks ago but he won't now at all, he is "compromising himself" and being untrue to what he believes in. So, I guess it doesn't matter if we're together at all.

day-
I'll expand on my previous post a bit. Maybe you can find something useful...

At first, he didn't want to touch me. But he did feel bad for my devastation, and I just asked him to please hold me while I cried for awhile...things progressed from there.

Afterward..he says, "You know this can never happen again." I said, "Whatever."

At this point, it was just an EA between he and OW, so basically, "he was saving himself for her"...she was with holding SF, "til she got a ring"....

I told OW that as long as I could possibly arrange it, until the day one of us moved out, I was going to meet his need for SF, because that was my vow. He knew this , too.

It was only after I quit clinging to the fear of life without him, that he began to see the light. The threat no longer had any meaning.

But for us, we always did have a very active sex life, it was (and is) a very meaningful form of non-verbal communication that we both fully understood and enjoyed. We could be angry as hell with each other and still end up in bed in a heartbeat. We still can, too!

I told both him and OW that I thought that sex could be a very real bridge between us, while we tried to get the rest to a manageable level. And I was going to continue to use every means at my disposal to try to save my marraige. Yes, even that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I actually agreed to be his "toy" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> for tension release, etc,(from his point of view anyways) while actively making plans for the rest of my life without him. OW was glad to have the heat taken off her, as he was pressing her for sex quite strongly....within about 3 weeks, he broke it off with her, and I never left...he said that one of his reasons for dumping her was, "I could foresee future problems with her in the SF area..."

<small>[ February 09, 2003, 07:14 PM: Message edited by: HelenWheels ]</small>

Well, we had a good sex life too before the first affair, and he will hold me etc. but then feels guilty if we do have sex and feels like I am manipulating him. This OW doesn't know anything about us and he is living on his own, we are not together since June, so she just thinks we are not having anything to do with each other. I don't want to have anything to do with her, and he has said if she knew what was going on she would dump him. So he has to lie to her. But that is not the real point, I just can't continue with this lifestyle any longer. We just fight about it all the time and it is pointless.

<<<bump>>>>

Your H is in some very dense fog! The things these WS come up with never ceases to amaze me. I don't blame you for not wanting to live like that anymore. If you are feeling like giving up you should talk to somebody. SH told me that's a good sign you need to take the next step, or your love will be gone for him totally and you won't care about saving your M anymore. I have noticed a lot of people on this board continue to have sex with there WS while the A is going on. My WW wouldn't do that with me right now anyway, but even if she wanted to there's no way I could.

day by day, not only is he lying to you both, but he's lying to himself! Where does he think faithfulness to an adulteress will get him? Surely not into God's grace!
He's not being faithful and you can tell him so. The only way he can be faithful is to keep himself only unto you.
No, My H never told me that and if he had, he'd be history so fast it would make his head swim!
I will never play second to any slut, nor give up my rights as a wife.
Tell her, tell him and anyone else you can find to listen!
Whata messed up jerk he is! How stupid can one get to think they're being faithful to one not their wife.
NO sex for me, no husband!
Best advice I know is don't take threats and let him put you in fear. What have you got to lose?
Not much i'd say!
GRRRRRRR,beats them all when they cry faithful. UGH
LouLou

starman and ladylou, Thanks for the replies. I know what you say is right but he doesn't have a clue! and right now no I don't want him to touch me at all. It hurts so much to be around him and he doesn't understand that either. He told me if I had done what he has done he would have given up because he figures it would be my choice. He has never fought for me or stood up for me and I feel like i am nothing to him. I probably will write the letter later this week and have my C. read it and maybe his minister C. know about it too. And also send it to her. If it is over between us then it will really be over and I will be better off not going thru this emotional and mental agony all the time.

Also my H. says he doesn't trust me either because of things I did to find out what he was doing. And I apologized for those things cause they didn't help, but he stills brings it up. His C. even asked him if he could understand why I felt I had to know certain things and he did say he understood, but I don't really think he does. Also his C. is just working on him, he is not a marriage C. so my H. thinks he can do whatever because he is just working on his issues right now and has to find himself. It's like this a big experiment for him to find the right person for him and who would be the best to end up with.

DbD,

Let your H know that he is right on the WS schedule of stupidity. He is following the script to the T. He won't get an award though.... previous actors and their antics still have him beat. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Just to let you know, my Ws said and did the same stuff. At first it hurt.... protect the OW, not lie to the OW, be trustworthy to the OW, etc.!??! YIKES <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> then.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> arrrgh

I stepped back to think about it and though the words were flowing out of his mouth, that dummy knew that he was lying through his teeth.... Could I fix that? I could remove his teeth but he'd still be lying... through his gums!!! What a sight that would be.... Then I realized, I had some power. Enough to keep me alive. At least for a while.

I finally gathered the strength to meet this A stuff head on..... told WS to go and keep being trustworthy and truthful to the OW, remember that she would be doing the same. To the rest of the world it is called lying but if they do opposite day 24/7, then so be it.

What I did was confuse him so that no matter what he did they were both lying and being deceitful even to each other. I questioned his and her motives. I put great doubt in their relationship. Each time I did that, I got stronger..... enough to the point that I no longer wanted to be a part of their games. I started to withhold info from him. See in my case, the OW gained strength when she knew what I was up to. The moment I began withholding info, she started to shrivel up.... took a while (she was a fighter) but soon she started to shrivel up just like the witch in the Wizard of Oz..... LOL!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

So DbD, I share my story with you. In an effort that you to will push it back in his face. I reminded the Ws how important it was to him to tell the OW the truth, so when he did things with us, I reminded him to keep his A relationship honest and report to OW on the double.... oh yea... even about the SF stuff. YUCK! Then when I got tired of those charades, I stopped the game... I stopped it and said, done you can go now..... Was I being mean? A bit. No more than how I was being treated. When the WS asked why was I turning him on and off, I said "oh, I learned that from you and the OW..... isn't that what you wanted me to do? Oh dear, I so want you to be happy. In fact make sure that when you are with the OW, you laugh and have a great time...... ok?:" boy those times drained me. Then I started to heal.... slowly then steadily.

Hope you don't have to resort to those steps but know that some here have.

take care,
L.

Is the only reason you want your H back because you want to "win" some "contest" over the OW? I've often wondered if that's what drives the BS, not true love. Regardless of whether you win him or not, you'll both need counseling to ever rebuild. You mentioned that he was in counseling. Are you in counseling? (I may have missed it if you said you were.) You are allowing yourself to be a part of this "game" he's playing. Realize that it is up to YOU as to when you withdraw from the game. That power is in your hands.

Oh dear, can I relate to the trust word being throw around. My WH accused me of being the biggest bit--, snoop, untrustworthy, the whole shebang because he got caught by my snooping.
It's so sick they can turn and tell us we can't be trusted after all the lies, deceit and sneaking around. I was told I'm worse than his A! Because of checking on him. LOL I laugh, but inside it makes me so friggin mad I could spit nails!
How dare these jerks accuse us of being untrustwothy!
Well, yes, he can now not trust me because I will never trust him again. I will check whenever, and as often as I please. If he has no thing to hide, he'll hide nothing as Dr.Phil says.
What he knows he can trust about me is I've been faithful, true, loyal and above the scum he hurt me for.
They do want to protect the sluts. Why I don't know. But it's like they have feelings and we don't. Respect is the very first thing I have demanded, over love!
I told him if he wants to screw around, go for it but be man enough to divorce first! or at least file first!
Then I will be free to seek someone better and true happiness. Um, he told me I better divorce before looking. LOL Double standards huh?
Believe me, I would tell him up front because I have more integrity than he and OW.
If I felt I needed another to satisfy me, what the hell would I want to stay with him annway?
If something is missing, then get out and get on with life is my motto!
The one thing I hate most is lying and deceits.
When they scream you can't be trusted anymore, it's a guilt transference because they know how low and immoral they have become. And they do not like to look at who they are!
Throw it back. Tell him you will not take his guilt for him. He can carry it himself. And you had a good teacher about lies and deceit!
LouLou

Yes I am going to a counselor also. We both actually started going to her together before I knew he was having an affair but he was acting-well you know how they act-and it was getting crazy because I coulkdn't figure out what was going on. Until I got into his e-mail, which he is still upset about. I had no right to do that! And I wouldn't have been hurt if i didn't find out. what you don't know can't hurt ya right? No I don't think it is a game or who wins is a better person, I know the person I knew is still in there somewhere and I do love him, but I won't do this forever, he does have choices to make and so do I. I am not giving him all the power.

There is one thing I truly believe with all my heart.
Married couples cannot have private lives! You are not entitled to privacy once married. Except maybe in the bathroom.
You become one, and as such share everything. No secret emails, phone calls, meetings, friends, social life apart, ect. It's just not a privilege you have anymore. If you want to lead private lives, then you better stay single and uncommitted!
The old crying Privacy is what I heard. Well, during his privacy he had and A online and in person. And by phone as well, vacation without me and wouldnt' even let us know where or how to reach him.
This is not a married persons right! A husband and father has an obligation to be open and available at all times to his family!
Nough said. When/if mine decides he needs privacy again, or is entitled to it, and seeks it, he will be single indeed!
LouLou

My H has been living with his girlfriend for almost 2 months, but for 2 weeks out of the 2 months he came back home. He wouldn't park his truck here so she wouldn't think he was here. I haven't been working and he hasn't been working because of a car accident we were in, and his girlfriend goes to work everyday. So in the morning he calls me and I usually see him everyday. He won't park his truck here I have to pick him up and bring him here or drive him if we go somewhere. Even if we take the kids to eat he won't come here to pick us or them up. I let her know that he was here, but then he lied and said he was somewhere else for 2 weeks. She believes all his lies. It stinks, and I tell him I feel like the girlfriend and not the wife

goldielocks, take pics with time dated on film. or put something showing date. If my WH hid to be with me,he wouldn't be with me.
God bless, LouLou