Jack-

It seems like you mentioned just prior to your D that you were going to contact SH and update him on your D becoming final and seek further guidance? Did you talk to him? The only thing I'd caution you with is the amount of contact you have with her. You want to make sure you're not meeting any of her EN's so she understands fully what she's losing out on. IMO, a solid plan B with lots of mystery surrounding these "friendly" dates would be much more effective than talking/emailing on a regular basis. You need to give her something to think about and stop being so forthcoming with info. Hang in there and god bless!

Jack,
I've read all these posts, and since you asked, here's my opinion.
You need to do whatever it takes to make Jack feel better. If you want to date, and you're divorced/not committed, then date. If you want to spend all your time at the zoo, then spend all your time there. If you want to learn how to fly, then learn how to fly.
My point is MB is a learning process. No one has the be-all end-all answers to how to be a better spouse. MB is a good tool, but it's asinine to think that any one "program" is the total instruction booklet for everyone's life. We are all different, all have different goals, values, etc. and while MB has some great concepts, just because people think it's too soon to date doesn't necessarily make it so.
I think that dating might be what you need. If I were in your shoes, maybe I'd think differently, but I doubt it (and also, my feet would probably hurt, unless you wore a size 13).... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ February 12, 2003, 08:57 AM: Message edited by: boomer ]</small>

jack:

"she called back to express her dis-pleasure with me going out again. i told her that i didn't want to talk about it. when HE is completely out of the picture, i'll listen. until then, there's nothing to talk about."

Well stated.

"this is thee closest i have gotten to her since D day. SHE'S JEALOUS! haha! what goes around, comes around (i didn't tell HER that though)."

Stop trying to punish her. She's doing a fine job of that herself. You won't heal yourself if you keep up this vindictive attitude regarding your xW.

Shakespeare: "There is neither good nor bad, but thinking makes it so."

And that's how *I* feel. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

-ol' Qfwfq

Yo, Jack55. Did you steal my story or something?

I went through almost the exact same thing with my XW. I've got news for you. You're not anywhere near over her. Three months after my DV I thought I was ready to move-on with someone else. The old XW didn't like that and reeled me back-in. Those WW's are good at it. Be very careful with any new romantic interests. You've got a crap load of baggage you don't even know about yet.

I started dating my GF 2 months after the DV was final and by some miracle we are still together and doing great. My XW attempted the same guilt trip on me. She even came close to coming back to me. I'd NC my GF to work on getting my XW back. At the last minute my XW would back out. The only reason my GF and I are doing so well is that I did not lie to her and I stuck to my word. She knew exactly what the situation was and aknowledged it. I remember my XW telling me that I didn't love her enough to give up my GF long enough to get her back. Of course she said this while living with the OM across the street from me!

Until they are well and truly away from the OP can you begin to believe much of anything of what they say.

I highly recommend cutting off all contact with her until she is finished with the OM if you want her back.

I know I sound like a harda$$ about this,but I take marriage very seriously and because I do I take the absence of marriage very seriously. Does that make sense?

make a lot of sense and thanks for the reply. also, the answer to all of your questions is NO.

Otherwise your exww will easily be able to twist the conversation round to R topics and this is too hot a subject for you to keep your cool.

I would not "be friends" I would aim for being a very cool "co-parent".

i'm beginning to understand what you folks are telling me and it's making more and more sense to me. thanks!

You want to make sure you're not meeting any of her EN's so she understands fully what she's losing out on. IMO, a solid plan B with lots of mystery surrounding these "friendly" dates would be much more effective than talking/emailing on a regular basis.

i think that does sound better than my plan now that i think about it. i never did get back to SH because he told me to have exW contact him when she began her NC. you think i should have another session because of the new developments? thanks man!

You need to do whatever it takes to make Jack feel better.

that's exactly what i'm trying to do and guess what? it's working for me. i don't really know 'why' this dating is making me feel better but it is! maybe it's making me feel better because it's stroking my ego? i haven't even 'looked' at another woman in 15 years and had no idea that other women were attracted to me like they are. maybe it's because i'm not thinking about exW when i'm talking to these women and going out with them. i'm starting to think about them and how much fun i'm having.

just so you all know.......i am not going to bed with anybody........yet! next month might be another story...who knows?

Stop trying to punish her.

i'm not trying to "punish" her. i had no idea she would react this way, but since she is.......ok, i'm enjoying HER getting 'some' of the hurt she put ME thru. know what i mean?

Until they are well and truly away from the OP can you begin to believe much of anything of what they say.

i agree. i'm beginning to think i can't believe ANYTHING she says, period!

I highly recommend cutting off all contact with her until she is finished with the OM if you want her back.

thanks for the advice from someone with IDENTICAL circumstances. i will NOT let her make me stop from starting my new life. if she cuts hin loose and can convince me she did, i'll talk then and only then.

thanks for all the advice from everybody! i really appreciate.

jack:

"Stop trying to punish her.

i'm not trying to "punish" her. i had no idea she would react this way, but since she is.......ok, i'm enjoying HER getting 'some' of the hurt she put ME thru. know what i mean?"

Subtle distinction. It's good she's facing the consequences of her choices. She will be hurt, but she will learn from the experience. But why would you want to enjoy someone else's suffering? Even if she was your perceived cause of YOUR suffering? Not a very fulfilling, deep-thinking way to live, in my very, very humble opinion.

-Qfwfq

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But why would you want to enjoy someone else's suffering? Even if she was your perceived cause of YOUR suffering? Not a very fulfilling, deep-thinking way to live, in my very, very humble opinion.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">maybe because i'm still pi$$ed at the way she handled this whole thing. no remorse, no regret, self-serving, without any concern for me at all and after all we have been thru in 15 years. just maybe? and, now that she sees me beginning a new life and i seem happy in her eyes, she wants to screw that up too? F%^k her!

see? it doesn't take much for me to get back into 'anger' mode. what is she trying to do to ME?! i'm supposed to sit and mope for the rest of my life while she's in fantasyland? nah.....not for me. let HER feel some of what i went thru.

you're a better person than i am, i guess. and i don't mean that in a disrespectful way. maybe you, no, probably you are.

jack:

"maybe because i'm still pi$$ed at the way she handled this whole thing. no remorse, no regret, self-serving, without any concern for me at all and after all we have been thru in 15 years. just maybe? and, now that she sees me beginning a new life and i seem happy in her eyes, she wants to screw that up too? F%^k her!"

Believe me, Jack, when I say I understand your anger. I was blazingly angry for MONTHS after D-day, and my W never even left me (but she had a 12-yr long A, and we've been M'd now for 27 years). All I'm saying is that your anger won't do you all that much good. And until you can get over your anger, how do you think you can relate to your xW or anybody else without fear that you'll be subjected to the hurt again!?

"see? it doesn't take much for me to get back into 'anger' mode."

But you recognize that it is YOUR CHOICE to react to her behavior with anger, don't you?

"what is she trying to do to ME?!"

I don't believe that she's consciously trying to hurt you. (here's where I need WAT to chime in with more about the alien abduction, brain transplants, and the like).

"i'm supposed to sit and mope for the rest of my life while she's in fantasyland? nah.....not for me."

Who's saying you should? And it's good that it's not for you.

"let HER feel some of what i went thru."

I would agree with this statement if it means "let her face the consequences of what she's done ALONE, because you shouldn't have to be made to feel guilty for her behavior. Just don't "wish" pain on her, okay? That's vindictiveness, and it will just eat you alive. Remember the quote: "Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die." It's true. I resented a LOT for a LONG TIME. And it stopped any progress I might have thought I'd made, every time I got wrapped around the axle over it.

"you're a better person than i am, i guess. and i don't mean that in a disrespectful way. maybe you, no, probably you are."

No, I'm not. I'm just a poor, country scientist lost in the Big City. And I new exactly SQUAT about human interactions before D-day. Since then, I've learned a lot, but there are loftier minds out there than mine!

Like JL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

-Qfwfq

I am all for you dating.... of course they get jealous.... if I were you I would not go into any plan B or anything... you don't have to do that.. if you are dating, just show your ex. that you are happy and enjoying the dating scene.... just take ALL pressure off of her... let her think that you really are HAPPIER without her.. then when she tries to test you to see if she can get you back by asking to go out or whatever, just tell her you can't because you have other plans.. then cut the conversation short by saying something like.. thanks for asking but I have to get going, talk to you later....

You can not get them to come back if you are at their beck and call... she needs to FEEL that she may have lost you... she will test you.. stop telling her that she has to break off contact with the other man... she will do it on her own if you start to show her how happy you are with your new single life..

Life is good.... Plenty of available women out in the world who would love to have a man like you....
don't worry about rebounds or whether you should do this or should do that... Just enjoy your freedom

You are finding out that it is ok to be happy.... feels good huh? When you project this attitude, it
draws women to you... they like a happy , confident man...

Your ex. knows she does not deserve for you to wait patiently for her.. she will respect you when you show her that other women are attracted to you, and it levels the playing field...... keep it up..

try not to let the naysayers on here from enjoying yourself and getting you to second guess yourself..

Keep:

I'm not a naysayer, though you and Jack might think so.

I'm just commenting on the resentment track that jack is following, and what that will do to him and his happiness.

I agree, he probably should go out on dates. He probably should be careful of committed relationships, though. He's too fresh out of the DV, and still reeling from it. He really doesn't want to risk hurting someone else, if his W suddenly becomes the woman she was before all this happened, so much so that jack can't resist her? I have no idea how bloody likely that scenario is, but it has happened here before...

Toodles,
-Qfwfq

Jack- I do agree with Just Learning that you have EVERY RIGHT to date. What some of the other posters aren't addressing is whether it is fair to that person you're dating to get involved when you still are emotionally entangled with your WW.

I think you got my point though about not getting involved. It's NOT that it's cheating on your wife. YOU AREN'T- YOU ARE DIVORCED and YOU HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO DATE. The issue is honesty with that person you are dating. If you ask someone out, they might get excited thinking that you were truly interested in developing a relationship. You actually might be more focused on making your XW jealous, and in getting the ego validation from them that you are desirable. It might not be so much about the qualities of that person, a true desire to get to know them, true interest. You are on the rebound and that is clear. I think other posters need to factor in the feelings of that other human being. But I think that if you are completely honest before the date it improves the situation. Still it is a bit dangerous. It can complicate your relationship with your XW and affect the resolution of your relationship. If you don't reconcile, you have plenty of time to date. Years! Why rush it?

My advice to you Jack is to slow down a bit, not because of XW, but for you. Get a bit self analytical, think about what happened in your M, think about what you would like to do differently in a future relationship whoever it's with. Explore yourself. Try developing some sides of you that your W may have not seen. Do some stuff that is a little uncharacteristic of you. If you tend to be work focused, do something for your community- volunteer for a cause or do something at your son's school. If you are a couch potato, try some sports or hiking activities. If you tend not do intellectual stuff, read a thought provoking book or watch a show that explores deep issues. Sign up for a class- maybe something crazy like painting or yoga. Do some stuff that is challenging for you, expanding for you, difficult for you, good for you. Rather than looking for a one on one connection (dating) why not try some group activities? You will still make your wife wonder, but it won't be a clear cut rejection of her. I suspect that you would admit that your Plan A wasn't perfect prior to D.
Now's the time to work on yourself!

If you still are holding out any hope for your M, I would consult Steve again. Moving On has his point of view, he moved on, and it worked for him, but his tactics ended up cementing his relationship with his GF, not regaining his M. He's happier for it obviously, and we don't know of the circumstances with his WW- obviously she had a failed M prior to her M with Moving On, so recovery may well have been unattainable.

I encourage you to THINK, to PLAN, not to react, not to act out of anger. Look at your situation- it is YOURS. As well meaning as we posters are, we all have our individual situations. Some of us did not attain recovery, some of us are dealing with WH not WW (I believe it's different). You have to assess your own situation. Look before you leap. That is why I highly encourage another check in with Steve.

I hope the above is helpful. Just some ideas.

My understanding from reading your past posts is that you consulted Dr.Harley and he advised you to do a Plan B. He has given you a prescription in how to possibily get your wife back. He is looking at your situation more objectively and is giving you good advice.

Jack55 I just like to remind you of the old saying 'you can't argue with a sick mind' and your ex-WW mind (presently) is indeed sick. Let me ask you, if you met a woman who told you that she had been married and did the same thing your ex-WW did to you, would you seriously consider starting a committed relationship with her?

maybe because i'm still pi$$ed at the way she handled this whole thing. no remorse, no regret, self-serving, without any concern for me at all
And this is one of the main reasons they want to do everything real quick. Then they don't have the time to step back and take a look at what they are doing.

You owe it to yourself to move on. Who wants to play fiddle to her. It sounds like she likes affairs, and is having one with you now.

RUN!

God Bless

espoir, as usual, your posts are very insightful, intelligent and very helpful.

three weeks ago, had my wife cut OM loose and wanted back home, i probably would have jumped to take her back. would i now? i'm not really sure.

part of me says 'yes' and part of me says 'no'. i know it's too early to make this judgement, because i haven't come to that bridge yet, but i'm not sure if i'd ever be able to forgive her for what she did to me. if she comes back, i'm not sure it would be for the 'right' reasons. she has to come back to me for the 'right' reasons (because she still loves ME) and not because of financial problems or because it just didn't work out for her. know what i mean?

i guess i am still very confused and you're probably right about me moving on too fast. this is really crazy. as of this moment, i have been on one date and have 3 more lined up for the next 10 days. three different women. why the hell am i doing this? because i CAN? for my EGO? to move on with my LIFE? i guess i can't 'honestly answer that and i will seriously consider taking your advice.

thanks for taking your time to try and help me. i wish there was something i could do for you to return the favor.

tommaz, thanks. i think i will schedule another appointment with SH. i do need help and he certainly knows his chit.

Let me ask you, if you met a woman who told you that she had been married and did the same thing your ex-WW did to you, would you seriously consider starting a committed relationship with her?

no! that's why i'm not sure i would want my exWW back. good point!

RUN!

that's the advice i get from friends and family. and it's something that i have to consider as well.

all i know is; she's still having this affair, she's still in this "FOG", she will not let it go, she shows no indication, whatsoever, that she wants it to end, she says she loves this guy and i haven't been able to budge her.

i do know that i will not wait for her to have her fun and come back to me for the wrong reasons.

she did say she would talk to SH, but stever told me to have her call him when she starts NC. this is not going to happen anytime soon. what's soon? who knows? i'm thinking a month. should i have a session with SH now and see what he says?

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

<small>[ February 13, 2003, 06:23 PM: Message edited by: jack55 ]</small>

Jack-
Firstly, I am not a believer in suffering indefinitely. But I do believe your 15 year marriage means something, means alot. Especially if, as you say, the two of you were happy.

OK- from your description it sounds like you did not do much of a Plan A. (You filed for divorce immediately, not knocking you, we all know why). But why did your people, your W included, get into As in the first place? They convince themselves- my spouse doesn't care. OP really loves me, my M is dead. They are getting fed by the ego trip, the affection, admiration, conversation from the OP, maybe with some SF thrown in. Stuff you might have been too busy to do. Dday then becomes the wakeup call. But it takes time for reality to sink in. In your case- you were angry and drinking (again, not blaming you) but hardly competition against an OM who's telling your W she's the "cat's meow". YOU FILED for divorce, not her, and to her, again that's validation of the perceptions that led her into the affair (he doesn't really care about me).

OK so now you are divorced. The quickest divorce on record. You are angry, justifiably so, at the way your W is treating you. So you are starting to date- again sending your wife the message that you don't care, she's replaceable.

Yet your wife is sending you some signals. She's upset about you dating. She basically came out and asked you to woo her back. Correct me if I'm wrong, but she hasn't moved in with OM, although he may be staying with her on occasion. And she says she is willing to talk to Steve Harley. (That is BIG). She's admitted that the A probably can't last. I could be wrong but it seems to me the fog is thinning SLIGHTLY.

Yes it would be nice if the A ended 3 weeks ago. But if it's say one more month- or two more months- who's to say if it is not worth it balanced against 15 years together? And a kid together. The two of you, hand in hand, in ten or fifteen years, beaming at your new grandchild in the hospital, versus skulking in separately, hoping you won't bump into each other.

When you told her you wouldn't go out on the date if she gave up OM for 5 days it was destined to fail. It's a powerplay. A control maneuver. A demand- maybe not selfish, but a demand none the less.

When I hear you say- if she had come back 3 weeks ago- I hear your anger speaking. Someone has to fight, Jack. Unfortunately it has to be you. That's just the way it is. You have to be the fighter, and you have to hold the torch for your marriage- if you want it.

The dating just complicates stuff. Sends a message to your W that you could send in other ways. You don't want to say- I don't really care about you, you're replaceable. You do want to say, I want to be with you, but if you're not with me, I will keep busy, I will do things for myself, I will take care of myself. A one on one date with a woman doesn't have to be the way you send that message.

When I was in Plan A, my H did respond to it. (It saved my marriage). But he didn't break off the A right away. He kept it going because he was afraid. Afraid that our M would be too damaged to repair, that I would punish him for the rest of our life, that our connection wasn't real.

the funny thing is that the OW in our case had the same thing going on with her H. In my first conversation with her, shortly after Dday, I told her that I loved my H, and that our 3 kids would be devastated by a D. Her response was that, she couldn't give up the grand love she had with my H, and besides, her H might never forgive her. She had sat in MC, trashing her H, telling him she never loved him. But, as time went on, she realized that my H was NOT going to be there for her- and she saw that the person standing beside her, steadfast, was her H. He made some changes in his behavior that had contributed to the A. It took time, and he did have to put his foot down and threaten D, but she did come out of her fog, and eventually went back to her H, extremely remorseful. As far as I know, their recovery is going well.

I spoke to her H when it was all over, and he said to me, "When I married her, I said I would stick with her through thick and thin. If this isn't the thin part, what is?" I asked him why he wanted to be with her, and he said, "she's special." So, ask yourself, is your WW special to you? Based on your history together- not the last few months. Or can she easily be replaced by one of your new dates?

JACK, please please please talk to Steve. This is a delicate time. Your whole life ahead will be affected by what happens now. The road to recovery is a very narrow path.

I don't know why Steve wouldn't talk to your W if she is willing to talk to him. Have you given him this new piece of info?

I do think you have to factor into your recovery time that YOU were the one who quickly filed for D, and pushed it through.

I don't know about a mixture of Plan A/B. I would try to do a pristine Plan A for 6 weeks to 2 months- followed by a pristine Plan B. But I think Steve is best qualified to advise you on this. You really do need to check in with him to strategize.

I know your anger is saying, she hurt me, I should punish her, let me protect myself, let me get back at her. I am asking you to try to put that aside for the moment. you can be BIG in spirit. You know, that if WW doesn't GET IT, you will move on, there will be plenty of women wanting you, you will have a partner in life. YOu will be happy. Try to slow down, figure out what went on in your M. See if there is any chance of reconnecting with W.

I believe that the 2 of you can be happy together again. There may be some heartache to overcome. Some other posters had unfortunate experiences. Remember, their WW is not your WW. Every situation is different.

OK this post is getting too long. Before I close, just a reminder- tomorrow is Valentine's Day. Since your wife indicated that she would like flowers, why not send her some? with a note, not pushy, not pressure. Something heartfelt, telling her you will never forget XXXXX (then mention some romantic memories, special memories, something only the two of you share). No matter what happens, you will always remember those memories, because they, and she are special. And leave it at that. Don't expect immediate results- for her to run back to you because of it. Open your heart a little, you can tell her something nice, if she doesn't respond you won't be crushed.

<small>[ February 13, 2003, 09:56 PM: Message edited by: espoir ]</small>