</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 20years:
<strong>Well, I kind of hate to tell you all this but I still haven't called OM. While my WW was at her moms house I did somemore reading and found one of Dr. Harleys Q&A letters dealing with a WW that wont break off A with OM. He said in that case you just have to compete with OM to try to win WW back for how ever long.....</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">20years,

Yes, he does say that, but that does not preclude contacting the OM or the OM's spouse. They are not mutually exclusive actions and Steve Harley has advised many BS on this board to contact the OP.[and do everything short of taking out a billboard to quickly end the affair]

Your strategy of competing with the OM does not negate your moral obligation to warn the OM's spouse that he is actively harming her behind her back. She needs to know this so she can protect herself and her children from him. I do hope you also plan on warning his congregation? I don't know if you are interested, but I found a few verses that might help.

1 Timothy 5:20
Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning.

Luke 17:3 So watch yourselves.
"If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.

Proverbs 27:5
Better is open rebuke than hidden love.

Proverbs 28:23
He who rebukes a man will in the end gain more favor than he who has a flattering tongue.

Thanks again for the replies. Just when I think I've got it figured out you all shed new light on it. My reasons are for self intrest only I came here to try to save my M. My WW is in such a state of mind that if I contact OM she would leave and never forgive me. I don't know this OM at all so I don't know if he's done this before or would do it again. My W said that he feels the same way about her that she feels about him. Like the were ment to be together so he's either good at this or he's in a fog also. It's not fair to his wife but I don't know if thats more important to me than my M. I feel that right now have to do what I think is right for my M. Mabe at the right time I will tell OM's wife. But right now this is how I feel I must deal with it please forgive me if I'm wrong but thats the way it has to be for right now. But thanks again for all your help sometimes I feel like I'm in the fog also.

<small>[ February 14, 2003, 08:10 PM: Message edited by: 20years ]</small>

20yrs:

Don't beat yourself up about it. You're human. You love your W and you fear that she may really leave if you do confront the OM.

I would urge you to call SH, since you are basing your decision on what he's written (or his father has written) on the website. He may have an alternative way of outing this thing that will minimize the impact on you and your family.

Something like informing someone else anonymously that can inform the congregation or his W or both.

I'm an atheist, but I can certainly see that this guy's behavior can't be allowed to continue. You would be doing his congregation, his family, and even HIM a big favor by putting a stop to his very un-Godlike behavior as soon as possible.

all my best,
-Qfwfq

Twenty Years:

I wanted to add that these situations are always different. Usually it's not a good idea to inform the OP's S about the A, because you run the risk of breaking up THEIR M and "freeing" the OP to persue your S.

This fear will play against your conscience, too. Mine did. I never informed the OMW, but she found out herself about 5 months after I did when the OM got careless.

When my W told me she found out and threw him out, I was worried that he'd be available to persue her or she'd want to be with him. Didn't happen, though we had some of those WW III arguments you talk about, both before and after that. But I had been feeling guilty for not telling her myself up until then, because I felt she had a right to know, and I believe in the truth.

But then my W told me that she had discovered their first A several years ago when they lived in the same area as us, and she didn't choose to tell me then. So, I stopped feeling guilty and let them behave as stupidly as they chose to after that (she's now having an A and he caught them in their home).

But in your case, it's a matter of moral principles. Not an easy, and certainly not a fun choice to make, but one you'll have to consider seriously.

Take care, and continue to love your W! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
-Qfwfq

20 yrs. at least do an anonymous call to the church and tell an elder or several.
I'd sure as hell appreciate knowing if I had a pastor running the leadership in my church that was a scum bag!
But then, too many people just think of themselves. This man is responsible for many lives, young and old in so far as their soul saving info goes. HOw can he teach them right from wrong when he is sinning on top of everything else?
Your wife and you are not the priority anymore in this situation.
Give me the name of the church and location and I'll make the call myself!
Leaving your name and your wife out of it.
I just pray where my grandchildren go, we have people who have the integrity and moral standard to stand up and not allow satan to rule the church!
Because peoples souls, and their pastoral leadership is more important than my spouse, yours or anyone else's here.
Personally, I speak my mind. And I've a pretty intelligent one to start with a very high IQ score.
You obviously haven't the slightest idea of the damage this man is doing, can do, will do, or has done to many already.
Nor do you give a rats a--!
Your wife isn't worth one childs religious training being hindered or thrown totally off track at their formative years.
She and the pastor be damned. And if this is worth more to you, good riddance. You deserve what you get, but the others don't!
The two of them are moral slime bags. Plan A? Plan B? shove them. Do what is right for someone else for a change and quit whining over this sleazey two bit bag.
That said, I am stopping MB. My marriage is now in great recovery with no help from this forum. God did the work of healing and restoring. And I thank God I put it to him for his guidance.And that guidance says I put God first, and do the responsible thing to see that innocents do not get hurt.
That comes before myself or any other person on this earth that might stand in the way of right, justice, and morally and religiously correct standards.
So you just sit and allow this snake to continue to preach his way of thinking to the young and old, unsaved and mislead them right down into hell.
I can guarantee you he is sugar coating the bible and God's commandments to suit his thinking. Which is already been shown to be totally off the Christianity track!
Another Baker or Sharpton? Two more preachers screwing other women behind their spouses backs, and their congregations throwing money at their feet thinking they're so saintly.
God has a place for them, and those who follow them! they will pay for the misleading they've done. The example they set.
I have news for you and I don't care who likes it or not here.
Your wife and OM aren't worth any of it! And you put yourself in their category with your cowardly acceptance. maybe she's as good as you deserve.
God isn't going to bless you when you can't have mercy for others, innocent and you hold onto your secret to protect the guilty!
Reap what you sow! Or you could decide to stand up and be a real man, and a real voice for God instead of hiding your head in the sand.
Frankly, I care for the people who are being totally deceived by their leadership in their church. But then God said some would be cold, didn't he. Or lukewarm. Many good people going to that church, I'm sure, hoping for guidance and looking up to the man who is supposed to be their shepherd in the church. HA.
When you allow this, you are actually just being an accomplice to their sin.
Did you know the bible says, If you see a brother about to sin, you are to counsel him? Go to him and try to keep him from it?
Oh, btw, brother covers women too. All are considered brothers and sisters in christ.
You're afraid you'll make your wife mad. I'm afraid this man will not teach many how to be saved. Because obviously he has no real salvation himself.
And you are just willing to sit there and let them sin, and hope it plays itself out.
Got news for you. Sin stays and it's dirty.
Only cleansing is for those who repent and actually regret that sin. Turn from it and walk the right way.
So what if your wife wakes up, and plays dumb. That still won't help the OM get his kick in the A-- to maybe wake him up. Possibly bringing him to his knees and saving many in his congregation. They deserve a pastor who is Godly and can teach them about truth.
Sheesh. I've said enough. But I have absolutely no respect for you at all now.
You're as dirty as they are.
Good bye board. and Good luck to those of you who do have decency to know the right way.
LouLou

I guess I'm wondering how telling the OMW will do anything but alienate the WW?? As far as I know, it's not part of Plan A as I have read it. I mean we are supposed to remain calm, rational, tell her how we FEEL, and avoid disrespectful judgements, angry outbursts, etc. If I were WW, I might think that ruining OM's life would be a disrespectful judgement. Seems to me that Plan A is devised to get OM out of his wife's life,,,,,not destroy OM's life,,,makes me wonder if it's really a vengence thing for him (not that I blame him for wanting vengence in his pain, but that's why we have a PLAN to stick to,,because our emotions are running loopy at that point) Also, why bother to put ANY effort into something OTHER than getting his wife to agree to NC?? THAT is what is going to eventually get her into marital recovery,,,,not telling OM's wife. Now, I KNOW it's tempting, and to a certain degree OMW is only headed for pain in the future with her H if he continues his A's, but what gives us the right to make that sort of decision?? Maybe I missed something, but seems kinda not right to me,,,,,,,Holly

ok, now im REALLY confused,,how can you say that the BS and his wife are NOT priority, LouLou?? And would the church even LISTEN to an anonymous caller saying that the pastor had an affair with an anonymous woman?? I mean ANYONE could call someone's boss with that information,,,,doesnt make it true (although I'm sure it is, who is going to blindly believe an anonymous call??), for goodness sake,,,,If you believe God, he tells us that vengence is HIS, and HIS alone. I could say more, but at the risk of losing my temper, so I'll shut up

Holly,

The reason we tell the OP's spouse is two-fold. First, there is a moral obligation to warn someone that they are being destroyed behind their back. And secondly, it puts pressure on the affair to end it from that side. Sure, it can be a lovebuster, but you don't sacrifice principle to avoid lovebusters. Harley believes in radical honesty and doing everything possible to bring the affair into the light of day, everything short of taking out a billboard.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If I were WW, I might think that ruining OM's life would be a disrespectful judgement. Seems to me that Plan A is devised to get OM out of his wife's life,,,,,not destroy OM's life,,,</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is the AFFAIR that has "destroyed" the OM's life, *NOT* exposing it. It is not a disrespectful judgment to expose destructive behavior.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by HeartHealing:
<strong>If you believe God, he tells us that vengence is HIS, and HIS alone. I could say more, but at the risk of losing my temper, so I'll shut up</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He has an absolute responsibility to warn the congregation if he knows its pastor is in a state of sin. That is straight out of the Bible. God does not expect us to IGNORE sin. His congregation has a right to know that their pastor is not fit to lead and should be warned.

<small>[ February 16, 2003, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

Melodylane, Ditto! Thank you!
I know I was a lot too rough on 20 yrs. but it does make me mad when people say they're born again, then two step when it comes to doing the right thing.
Probably it is a trigger due to a professed Christian man saying he didn't interfere with my H's A of many years ago because God never placed it on his heart. And he didn't want to interfere with H's girlfriend and their R.
Makes me ill to hear anyone hide behind God, the quietly sit while other people lives are destroyed.
As a BS, I want to know, and those who've known have kept their mouths shut to the detriment of me! If i'd been forewarned last time also, I could have prevented it becoming PA! And saved our bank acct tons of money. YOu see, my diabetic son was without medical ins, and this money would have paid for over a years worth of Ins!The consequences of not getting his regular test for kidneys,etc, could be very detrimental if not fatal! Believe me, I couldn't care less about OW's privacy or others when it was hurting my family in a big way!And if my WH had decided to be angry and leave due to my blowing it out of the water, so be it. I figure he wouldn't be worth it anyway if he left. He said I was mean to tell her H. Of course i was. It got him called and told if he touched his wife again he'd fly out here and beat the crap out of him. And he deserved it too! It made certain they didn't fool around anymore too. Because she was forewarned also of the consequences by my son and I. Screw my H, but don't hurt my family! Because then you're messing at deaths door!
Most likely, the pastor 20 yrs wife is online with is already involved in PA's with others if not with her. But it will eventually become Physical as we all know from experience if left to just continue on it's own.
For others to know and not be honest to the innocent victim is bad enough, but for a BS to know and just let it go on is way beneath my understanding.
Now we have a church full of people looking for spiritual guidance. Some who know nothing of Jesus and salvation. The naive and young especially. I wouldn't put it past this pastor to be molesting young women also.
For some, all they need is this to lie as a secret until it harms them to the point of never stepping inside a church again because it will eventually come out. I say better early than later.
The Action taken against this man would certainly educate some that it's not acceptable for a pastor. And they can replace with someone who truly wants to lead others to Christ. Not set an example that it's ok to sin, sin, sin.
The damage is far reaching in his profession. (Sic)
So in moral conscience, when too many innocents are in danger, I have to choose God first! And his teachings.And he says bring them before the whole of the church for scrutiny and hopfully, bring them to repentance.Yes, Vengence is God's, But as his disciples here on earth, the truly saved ones, we have an obligation to his flock also. And to the unsaved.
Turning a blind eye is not in the bible! To see sin and ignore it is to condone it! Making one also accountable.
I, personally, do not want to pay for their sin. Or be dragged into it unwillingly.
And I stand by the statement that 20 yrs wife is not a priority now. The truth is necessary for the whole and the consequences to others.
One can be accountable in more ways than one. It's no different to me than watching someone rob from many and protecting their identity.
This church needs to do a lot more digging where they may find much more going on that just this A.
I say they need access to Pastors computer on and off premises. If he has nothing to hide, then why hide it?
This is a wolf among the sheep. People who sin always think it's hurting no one but themselves. But they're wrong. Sin is far reaching and touches many lives. To stand by and do nothing to me is abominable. But then 20 yrs has to come face to face with God someday too. And he will be accountable for those harmed by his silence.
If it's never revealed, what happens? The pastor will simply pick his next victim/s and continue right on. Even if he's eventually transferred to another duty station.
And he continues to do harm to hundreds, maybe thousands!
Way to go 20 yrs. Hope you can live with it.
There comes a time when one must look beyond their own benefits, self and selfishness.
Maybe you'll rethink your position eventually.
If your wife stops, what have you gained? you will have what you want, but what about the other people?
The OM's wife is definitely deserving of the truth. Because he's effecting her life also. Wonder how she and the congregation will feel if they learn much later someone knew and hid the truth from them. Much more damage will have been done then.
According to the bible, God gets first position. Spouse falls underneath that, and so on in order of priority. God is first priority!
Remember the calling people vipers in the bible?
Jesus, nor his disciples stood quietly by while seeing sin all around them. They yelled it for all to hear.
Vengence is God's, but then no one is suggesting you put punishment out on the sinners. Just that you bring it to light so it can be cleansed.
They will be repaid. But helping to stop sin is our job here. We are to do all we can to bring light to these sinners. And as far as I can see, you choose to allow darkness to prevail.
And a dark cloud over the whole church!
To do less is to be an accomplice in my opinion.
I will not aid anyone in continuing their sin to the detriment of others.
After all, didn't Jesus sacrifice for the benefit of the masses?
Jesus could have just said let them go and God will deal with them later. Legions of Angels stood by at his command, But he never waivered! Thank God!
He stood for truth no matter what the consequencs to self. And I stand with him!
Striving to be Christ like is a tough job. But definitely to our benefit.
To stand by and watch satan run riff in a church and with peoples lives and souls is not being Christlike.
If you fear offending your wife, then you choose offending God over her.
Nobody on this earth is worth it to me.
I stand by my what i've said and not one apology.
If it's offensive, then so be it. It won't be the first time people are offended by truth!
I'm more offended by the do nothing attitude while many are harmed.
LouLou

Telling isn't neccessarily about vengeance. For most MBers I think it's about disrupting destructive behavior; providing people a wake-up call and chance to recover; being honest; providing help to relative innocents (just ask any BS if they wished they had known earlier rather than later and notice what the large majority say).

Of course it can be. Publishing a advertisement after both couples are recovered would be mean - but this is clearly different from that example.

Yes, it is has an LBing effect on the WS, but so do lots of positive behavior. Not granting a divorce immediately can also have an LBing effect, but I don't think BSes should be filing papers at every WS's request.

Back to 20years, though. Not telling is not neccessarily the "right" thing for your M. You are just trading one harsh medicine for another. I will say that it is definitely the right thing for keeping your W happy in her A for now.

Good luck on your plan anyway.

Will someone please direct me to where Dr Harley recommends getting the affair out in the light of day TO THE ENTIRE COMMUNITY?? In some cases, exposing a minister would be the EQUIVELENT of taking out a billboard sign. I might also add that NOBODY ever knows the state of someone else's immortal soul (meaning whether or not he has asked God for forgiveness or not),,,,and although I agree that SOME people have a greater responsibility for good moral conduct (I for one was DISGUSTED by Bill Clinton) a mistake (as horrible a mistake as an affair is,,,trust me I know what it is to be a BS and also a WS) that was forgiven by God should not necessarily condemn a man to a lifetime of not being able to make a living,,,how is THAT going to effect his wife?,,If we MUST tell the OMW, then why not have someone who knows her well, and loves her, and is able to support her and hold her while she cries tell her? IN PRIVATE?? I'm not saying that that might not be a good idea,,,but to have a STRANGER call her? I mean what if she has a bad heart or something? seems to me we are making decisions based on morals without having all the information? What kind of shock are we talking about here when we talk about exposing her husband to an entire community,,,,,man, if I were she, I would be HORRIFIED.
also,,,,not a disrespectful judgement?? excuse me??

<<<I wouldn't put it past this pastor to be molesting young women also.>>>

MOLESTATION is a crime!!!! We're saying that a man that is SOOOOOOO horrible as to have an affair would MOLEST people?? WOW,,,my husband is a molester,,IM A MOLESTER. If that isn't a disrespectful judgement, I don't know WHAT is,,,,,furthermore,,,,,I'm not sure your plan is PRACTICAL,,,I know *I* don't want to belong to ANY organization where I have a pivotal position that believes just any anonymous phone call,,,I mean, what are we gonna do?? Stand the man up in the church, put a dunce hat on him, and point fingers????? If you honestly feel the need to expose this man to the light of day so the whole community knows,,,,,doesn't he have a right to defend himself? shouldn't he face his accusors HONESTLY? Shouldn't they have to have PROOF?? SHOULDNT THEY HAVE TO SHOW THEIR FACES TO THE CONGREGATION TOO??? Seems to me that doing it in private would give some loving friends (and I DO think this should be done in LOVE) the opportunity to council him in the love of Christ,,,how much more would a confession to his flock mean if it came from HIM as a sign of his sorrow at breaking their trust?? Yes I believe in God,,,,,and His forgiveness,,,,I depend on it DAILY,,,but I also know that we (as human beings) can do one heck of alot of sin in the "name" of Christ,,,so someone please show me WHERE the Harley's say that we should totally destroy someone in order to get "it" in the light of day,,,,,,in the meantime, I'll just remember that Christ told us that "Those of us without sin, be the first to throw the first stone". Holly

Holly,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">so someone please show me WHERE the Harley's say that we should totally destroy someone in order to get "it" in the light of day,,,,,</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, I have to point out the extreme logical fallacy in this statement. You have made this statement several times and I have to point again that it is not the TRUTH that destroys but the *AFFAIR*. Honesty is ALWAYS part of the solution; secrecy is the problem.

I think if you check out the Bible, you will see that it is a Christian obligation to publicly expose sin, ESPECIALLY that of a pastor. It would be evil to sit idly by and allow others to be misled by such a man. And yes, we are to forgive when repentence happens, but that does not mean you give you the bank keys to the bank robber because he is "repentent." No, you make sure he is not free to rob banks anymore and put him in jail.

But yes, a high profile individual who leads many, can and should be exposed in a high profile manner when they are not fit to lead. They should be REMOVED. It comes with the territory.

1 Timothy 5:20
Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning.

From a moral standpoint, we have an obligation to warn someone when they are being harmed behind their back, as in the case of the OP spouse. It is ludicrous to imagine that it the telling of the affair that causes the pain; it is the AFFAIR that causes the pain. With the truth in hand, she can take steps to protect herself and her children. Steve Harley not only advocates the truth, but has counseled many here to "do everything short of taking out a billboard" to reveal the affair. He has even counseled many here to contact the OP. You can be sure that he does not advocate keeping the affair secret. Secrecy is what caused the problem in the first place.

Here is what Harley says about it:
“From my perspective, honesty is part of the solution to infidelity, and so I'll take honesty for whatever reason, even if it's to relieve a feeling of guilt and depression. The revelation of an affair is very hard on an unsuspecting spouse, of course, but at the same time, it's the first step toward marital reconciliation.

Most unfaithful spouses know that their affair is one of the most heartless acts they could ever inflict on their spouse. So one of their reasons to be dishonest is to protect their spouse from emotional pain. "Why add insult to injury," they reason. "What I did was wrong, but why put my spouse through needless pain by revealing this thoughtless act?" As is the case with bank robbers and murderers, unfaithful spouses don't think they will ever be discovered, and so they don't expect their unfaithfulness to hurt their spouse.

But I am one of the very few that advocate the revelation of affairs at all costs, even when the wayward spouse has no feelings of guilt or depression to overcome. I believe that honesty is so essential to the success of marriage, that hiding past infidelity makes a marriage dishonest, preventing emotional closeness and intimacy.

It isn't honesty that causes the pain, it's the affair. Honesty is simply revealing truth to the victim. Those who advocate dishonesty regarding infidelity assume that the truth will cause such irreparable harm, that it's in the best interest of a victimized spouse to go through life with the illusion of fidelity.

It's patronizing to think that a spouse cannot bear to hear the truth. Anyone who assumes that their spouse cannot handle truth is being incredibly disrespectful, manipulative and in the final analysis, dangerous. How little you must think of your spouse when you try to protect him or her from the truth.

It's not only patronizing, but it's also false to assume that your spouse cannot bear to hear the truth. Illusions do not make us happy, they cause us to wander through life, bumping into barriers that are invisible to us because of the illusion that is created. Truth, on the other hand, reveals those barriers, and sheds light on them so that we can see well enough to overcome them. The unsuspecting spouse of an unfaithful husband or wife wonders why their marriage is not more fulfilling and more intimate. Knowledge of an affair would make it clear why all efforts have failed.

After revealing an affair, your spouse will no longer trust you. But lack of trust does not ruin a marriage, it's the lack of care and protection that ruins marriages. Your spouse should not trust you, and the sooner your spouse realizes it, the better.

The Policy of Radical Honesty is one of two rules you must follow to protect your spouse from your self-centered behavior, which includes affairs. The other rule is the Policy of Joint Agreement (never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse). If you were to be completely honest with you spouse, and you were to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement, an affair would be impossible, unless for some reason your spouse wanted you to have one.

If you knew that your affair would be discovered -- that right after having sex with your co-worker, your spouse were to find out about it -- you would probably not go through with it. And if you were honest enough with your spouse so that YOU would be the one to tell him or her what you did, your honesty would be a huge reason to avoid any affair.

How the victimized spouse should respond to the revelation of an affair is a subject of a later column. I do not have the space to treat it here. But a spouse is twice victimized when he or she is lied to about an affair. Truth is far easier to handle than lies.”

Okay-
I can't remember the reference....maybe someone will help?

Somewhere in the New Testament...didn't St. Paul outline exactly how these situations should be handled?

Flying strictly from memory here, so feel free to correct me...in a spirit of love, forgiveness and tolerance....LOL...

Go to the offending party first, if sin is continued, then the elders, then general congregation....

In my mind, it would be up to the elders of that particular congregation to involve any heirarchy above the pastor, diocese, or whatever body it is....

It makes sense to me that if pastor has been confronted, and keeps justifying, it seems a quiet meeting with the elders would be the next logical step.....

All steps to be accomplished with spirit of humility and concern, and honest desire to have the offending behavior cease. No spirits of anger, etc. allowed.....

Do all you can and God will handle the rest...

W will be upset? Maybe leave? Regardless of W's reaction, seems to be a bigger fish to fry here, so to speak.

The sooner the bull hockey stops, the sooner true recovery can begin, JMHO....

passing the buck doesn't sit well w/ me either.

<small>[ February 16, 2003, 07:00 PM: Message edited by: HelenWheels ]</small>

heart, according to your arguments here you would have no problem with being kept in the dark forever re your H affair, rather than have a stranger apprise you of the truth. Is that correct?

<<<heart, according to your arguments here you would have no problem with being kept in the dark forever re your H affair, rather than have a stranger apprise you of the truth. Is that correct? >>>

what I THINK is that if a stranger KNEW this information, s/he would be wise to give it to someone I LOVE (and in this situation, it sounds like the people who know the details probably know someone who loves HER) who could help me during my time of pain and difficulty,,,,I would rather hear it from someone I know and love and trust than a complete stranger,,,doesnt it stand to reason that I would take it better from someone I loved and trusted??? If we have a moral obligation to advise her, then we ALSO have a moral responsibility to DO THAT IN A WAY THAT IS BEST FOR HER IN LOVE AND CHRISTLIKE SERVITUDE!!! I am not sure her feelings or any thought for her has been considered at all!! The attitude seems to be, who CARES about anything but getting the truth out?? how cruel that seems to me. There are always two ways to advise someone of heartbreak,,,Cruelly, coldly, unlovingly,,,,and with love and compassion and empowerment,,,YOU choose how YOU would rather hear this information.

<<<Go to the offending party first, if sin is continued, then the elders, then general congregation....

In my mind, it would be up to the elders of that particular congregation to involve any heirarchy above the pastor, diocese, or whatever body it is....
>>>

THANKYOU very much,,,,all I am suggesting is that to just fly off the handle, publicly denounce this man in church in front of perhaps HUNDREDS of people is IRRISPONSIBLE. (Unfortunately, Christians are NOT above gossiping,,,,the whole town will know in a week) Let me ask y'all something,,,,,,what if it isn't true?? Are we going to hang an innocent man because someone wants revenge?? Sure sounds like it could turn into the Second Salem Witch Trials to me. Doesn't he have a RIGHT to face his accusors and to KNOW who they are?? To present any evidence HE might have?? I'm sorry, this whole thing sounds like it COULD be used for revenge,,,even if it is not being so now,,it COULD be.

Also., why is HE the only one who has to suffer ostricism of the community and the congregation?? Did she not sin TOO??? Did he throw her on the bed and rape her? If it's going to be done publicly, it should NOT be done anonymously. IMHO,,,Holly

PS,,,,what about any young children the Minister and his wife might have?? Has any thought been given to the TRUE innocents of such situations?? Or is truth SO important that their welfare doesn't matter either?? Just makes me sick, is all,,,,,maybe HE deserves it,,,,and maybe SHE deserves it,,,,but SOMEONE who doesnt deserve it is going to get hurt

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by HeartHealing:
<strong>PS,,,,what about any young children the Minister and his wife might have?? Has any thought been given to the TRUE innocents of such situations?? Or is truth SO important that their welfare doesn't matter either?? Just makes me sick, is all,,,,,maybe HE deserves it,,,,and maybe SHE deserves it,,,,but SOMEONE who doesnt deserve it is going to get hurt</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, it is not the truth that hurts the family, but the AFFAIR. The wife needs to know so she can protect HERSELF *AND* the children from him. She obviously can't do that if she doesn't know the truth. And no, the children do NOT deserve an adulterous father. That is why the mother needs to know the truth.

heart, you didn't quite answer the question, your only option was a stranger. But I will take your response as a yes, you would want to know, true?

You have modified your position, now emphasizing HOW the information is revealed, not that it should not be. I think everyone who advocates revealing truth would agree with you. That being truth should be revealed as responsibly, and compassionately as possible (in consideration of all who are affected), as long as the truth itself is not lost. Truth should not be used as a weapon (in relationships), that creates an adversarial conflict and diminishes the truth by calling into question the veracity of the truthteller. How the truth is revealed speaks to that concern.

As to your concerns about reputation and such (ie salem witch trials), the truth speaks for itself, if slander is offered as truth, it will be revealed. But we are not dealing with that issue here at all. I suppose the possibility exits the posters wife is misrepresenting the affair to 20 years, and is some sort of obsessive stalker. I don't recall whether 20years has a smoking gun, but I think he did. But certainly an initial call to the om would help clarify what may be going on, and can't hurt. Also it would be very telling if the om does not tell his wife about this "obsessive" woman stalking/fantasizing about him. Frankly I don't think this is too hard to sort out, and this is precisely one of the duties church elders are charged with, clarifying truth re concerns about church officials, and certainly a pastor.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LurkingAbout:
<strong>heart, you didn't quite answer the question, your only option was a stranger. But I will take your response as a yes, you would want to know, true?

You have modified your position, now emphasizing HOW the information is revealed, not that it should not be. I think everyone who advocates revealing truth would agree with you. That being truth should be revealed as responsibly, and compassionately as possible (in consideration of all who are affected), as long as the truth itself is not lost. Truth should not be used as a weapon (in relationships), that creates an adversarial conflict and diminishes the truth by calling into question the veracity of the truthteller. How the truth is revealed speaks to that concern.

As to your concerns about reputation and such (ie salem witch trials), the truth speaks for itself, if slander is offered as truth, it will be revealed. But we are not dealing with that issue here at all. I suppose the possibility exits the posters wife is misrepresenting the affair to 20 years, and is some sort of obsessive stalker. I don't recall whether 20years has a smoking gun, but I think he did. But certainly an initial call to the om would help clarify what may be going on, and can't hurt. Also it would be very telling if the om does not tell his wife about this "obsessive" woman stalking/fantasizing about him. Frankly I don't think this is too hard to sort out, and this is precisely one of the duties church elders are charged with, clarifying truth re concerns about church officials, and certainly a pastor.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not sure that I EVER had anything against her knowing in POLICY,,,I was however confused as to WHY it should be done. What PURPOSE did it serve?,,,,you clarified that somewhat for me. I am STILL uncomfortable with it, mostly because it seems WAY too easy to USE in a less than Christian way,,NOT that it would be done in THIS instance,,,but as a POLICY, it seems that SOME people COULD use it that way. I have BEEN a BS and I have FELT such anger that I WANTED to be vengeful,,,that takes energy away from what I feel I should be doing, which is saving my marriage. IF, however, conditions were right, then your plan COULD work,,,for instance,,,people in the KNOW could inform a relative or close friend in the church who could have a discussion with the Pastor's wife IN PRIVATE,,,,they would be loving and supportive and helpful,,,then CHURCH LEADERS could have a discussion with the pastor,again IN PRIVATE,,,,,about his knowledge of any such affair, they would advise him who had made the allegation, and show him whatever proof THEY have,,,he would have an opportunity to present any information or proof HE may have to support HIS claims. (Although I am CERTAINLY not suggesting that the person in THIS case is lying, it is certainly a possibility that as a matter of POLICY someone COULD be lying, I think you will agree, and certain precautions should be taken to protect his reputation) IF they feel that the pastor is lying, then it would be bumped up to the next level of heirarchy, if they feel that he is not lying, then no further harm has been done,,,,if he admits the affair, then repents after prayerful discussion, I DO think he should admit it to his congregation and ask their forgiveness for his human weaknesses and selfish behavior towards his wife. All of this has SOME possibility for good,,,,,but envision if you will ANOTHER scenario,,,10 church leaders walk into the church, and accuse the pastor in front of 200 people, show no proof, tell him NOTHING about the allegations, and therefore give him NO opportunity to defend himself, after all they HAVE no proof because the phone call with the information was made annonymously ( I would think that choosing to believe what is essentially annonymous gossip would be a sin),,,,they just came from a discussion with his wife, who is now hysterical with NOBODY to support her because some wellmeaning busybodies decided the truth was more important than doing it in a way that could give her the most support. But what if it's NOT the truth? If it's the truth, fine, then give PROOF. Let him either admit it, or trap himself in his own lies trying to deny it,,,,but don't punish him (or his wife, or their children) with public ostricism AT LEAST until it's proven to be the truth,,,,anything less is less than Christian in my opinion. I also think it's rather naive to say that truth speaks for itself and slander will always be found out,,,how NOT true. Ask anyone who has ever been put in jail for a crime s/he did not commit. This situation has the potential of ruining an innocent person's life,,,,,and again, I'm not saying that THIS OM is innocent, but as a matter of policy we can't just assume WHO is lying and WHO is not,,,,we must have steps, a safety net as it were, to take to protect EVERYONE, the Minister included. I think that in certain jobs, and a minister would be one, his reputation SHOULD be above reproach,,,,but let us remember that reputations are so EASILY destroyed,,,,and yet so difficult to win back once destroyed,,,,,and TRUTH doesn't necessarily build back someone's reputation even when it SHOULD,,,,,there will ALWAYS be people who will hear what they want and assume he is guilty simply because he has been accused. Holly