Said minister is in a position of trust. That by itself makes him dangerous if he's immoral and obviously is to be having an internet A with a member of the church.
Yes, he could be a molester, which isn't saying all adulterers are molesters! But think of his job, who he's assigned to be teaching the moral and religious issues to.
I have a very deep gut feeling this man is not just in one A online with 20 yrs wife. Call it what you wish, but there is a feeling this goes much deeper.
Now, since he and his wife are in the leadership position in the church, there are obviously many people who would be close to her. Good friends as is usual for the pastor and his wife to have close friends among the church eldres, their spouses, etc.
Yes, he should be confronted first, then if he continues, it should be taken to the elders, and only then, is he brought out before the whole church if he refuses to stop, repent and be held accountable by being under scrutiny.
This cannot be allowed to happen in the church. Their spiritual leader is supposed to be the pastor.
I'm sure the Elders are trained to handle this with discretion where necessary.
someone said maybe he's sought forgiveness? Well if he has, he hasn't gotten it until he repents.
LouLou

Telling the OP's spouse will do nothing but make recovery more difficult. There is a reason that 20years' spouse entered into the affair. That reason is the root of the problem and that's what deserves attention at this time. It's up to 20years' spouse to end the affair. Shedding light on the A will not make the underlying issues to go away. Do drug addicts stop the drug abuse because the whole world knows? No, drug addicts get better because the want to get better.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by jimtex1:
<strong>Telling the OP's spouse will do nothing but make recovery more difficult. There is a reason that 20years' spouse entered into the affair. That reason is the root of the problem and that's what deserves attention at this time. It's up to 20years' spouse to end the affair. Shedding light on the A will not make the underlying issues to go away. Do drug addicts stop the drug abuse because the whole world knows? No, drug addicts get better because the want to get better.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jimtex,

How would it make recovery more difficult? Even if it did, that doesn't eliminate his moral obligation to warn this woman. If you know someone is being robbed, you don't withhold that evidence because it will cause you "trouble." [unless you are a heartless infidel] Telling the OP spouse is not INTENDED to make 20yrs' relationship problems go away and no one said it was. It MIGHT put pressure on the affair from that end but that is not the point. The point is to warn the woman, not seek some selfish benefit.

And yes, drug addicts most certainly DO get better when the light of day is shone on their addictions. You are only as sick as your secrets.

Heart,

With all due respect, what in the world are you talking about? We were discussing the PRINCIPLE of telling the OP and the pastor's church and you are off manufacturing some bizarre, high drama soap opera scene. What is the relevence of that? How can you even hope to have a rational discussion when you keep changing the premise of the discussion?

<small>[ February 17, 2003, 09:21 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

What happened to 20yrs?

Seems like his last post was... ...twenty years ago. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I hope he and his W are doing okay.
-Qfwfq

How about accountability for the behavior of the parties involved? The more an infidel gets away with the action, the more they are likely to continue, either with that person, or they will move on to someone else. Pastor did the behavior and the action, knowing there would be consequenses. It is just a matter of how and when they will be paid. How the church handles it is their business.

As for his pastor's wife, I for sure, would want to know, however it should come out. I cannot believe any BS would advocate otherwise. It is only with truth that we can prepare and defend ourselves appropriately. This man is sinning and needs others to help him stop and repent and heal. However this happens is not in our control, but the involved parties, once the truth is out.

20Years, have you read Read Torn Asunder? This book deals with Christian leaders involved in affairs. That is why Dave Carder (?) wrote the book.

YOur wife does not want you to blow the cover of her A. The more you leave it alone, the more it can thrive. Once you reveal it, then it cannot be "their" secret any longer. Your W will do anything and say anything to keep you from damaging it right now. It is the "fog". Read some of Sincere1's posts.

Back to pastor's wife...Who wants to be the last to know? Never the BS. And the church leaders deserve to know. They will handle it according to their policies. This pastor knows this. Why prolong it??? JMHO.

Heavens,

Who is 20years married to? His spouse? The preacher? The preacher's spouse? The only person accountable to the BS is the WS. Where is the secrecy if the BS knows what is going on? The WS' cover has been blown.

If the WS won't stop then would not you agree it's time for the WS to leave the marriage. It's called Plan B. It's up the the WS to decide what he/she really wants. The BS has the same decision to make. Bringing other parties into this tangled mess accomplishes nothing.

I have been there and did not contact the OP's spouses / employers / family. Just because it worked for me does not mean it will work for others. However, why would I wish to humiliate my wife in the public arena? Is that the path to reconciliation and healing?

Boy, it looks like I opend a can of worms here. I'm still around and still reading but I'm almost to scared to post because of some of the replies that have been posted. I never said that I was someone high and migty only looking to do the right thing. If I had done the right things all along in my M mabe I wouldn't be in this mess. I just wanted to get some ideas on what had worked for others and I'm very thankful for the replies that I've got but it's still me who has to decide what to do with all this info. When I said that I thought that GOD could deal with OM and his heart much better than I can I meant it. Idon't know that my talking to OM man would do anything but make me feel better for a short time or mabe even push OM and my WW even closer together. I just think GOD can deal with his heart much better than I can. If it ends up being his secret till the day he dies thats between him and GOD. We all have secerets in our closet and if you think your preacher at your church doesn't you are probably wrong mabe not the same secerets as this preacher but secerets that would change the way you thought of them if you were to find out. I think GOD can bring his message in many ways and when this man is no longer able to bring that message then GOD will deal with that situation as he sees need to. Remeber we are all humans here and not one of us are without faults. But I don't think we would all want everthing we've did or going to do brought out to our S or the church ever time we made a mistake. And unlike some have said I don't condone what my WW and OM are doing but if I have to go through it a little longer to get my M back then thats my choice to make. If thats not the RIGHT THING to do then pray for me also but know that this is not the first time that I have not done the right thing in my life. I have to ask forgiveness everday for my actions just like my WW and OM. I guess I'm just not quick to point fingrs because I don't want fingers pointed back at me for everthing I've ever done. I also think GOD is vey capable of puting this on OM's wife's heart just like he did on mine when I started to suspect what was going on. These people live 1500 miles from us so I don't know anyone who even goes to this mans church anyway. His name and the name of his church are all that I know. Sorry for going on here but I just feel like some of you are not forgiving of me for not doing the right thing. If I had done the right thing or if OM had done the right thing or if WW had one the right thing none of this would have happend in the first place. But thats still not my reasons for coming here it was to find out the best way to save my M.

jimtex1,

I thought there was accountability somehow inherent in society. Or is it just my town that has these police folks keeping people from breaking society's norms (i.e. laws).

Your statement might be better reflected as who has the most accountability to each other and yes, that would be the WS/BS pair. But to say that 20years has no societal obligation implies that I should not care what happens to anyone that I am not married to.

There is accountability, albeit on a much smaller level than a marriage. It's a part of being a member of society. And the more significant the connections, the deeper the accountability.

Re: other points you made (which was a mix of statements that I do and don't agree with)....
Plan B is not "leaving the marriage".

Bringing other parties into a tangled mess can accomplish something. I think there's plenty of anecdotal evidance to disprove your statement. And SH's "short of a billboard" line of thinking.

A lot of people don't wish to hurt the WS (i.e. public humiliation), but then Plan B isn't exactly supposed to be "nice". It 's sometimes described as living with consequences; sowing what you reap; or no pain, no gain. Sometimes people have to hit a proverbial rock-bottom before coming to a new path. Even in the midst of Plan A, there should be boundaries.

<small>[ February 17, 2003, 03:38 PM: Message edited by: est ]</small>

As a BS, I can vouch for the pain of finding out only after many years while others kept their silence! I wish someone had told me in the beginning.
As for this situation, it seems Heart and some would just look out for selves and to hell with anyone else.
The OM is not working for insurance co, or any other corp. office job, etc. He's supposed to be a spiritual leader to his congregation. That is the place many will be harmed by this secret of not knowing who is leading them. He's already shown his convictions are not correct for a pastor. His morality is not one of leadership to a church. 1500 miles away? 20,000,000, the damage will be the same.
Sadly, who knows what damages will occur to his wife with it kept from her. Shall we sit silent while he continues until she has aids? Herpes? Or any number of STD's unaware she can't trust him?
20 yrs may save his marriage. But at what cost to others for silence?
Why not attempt to do both? Save his marriage and help others avoid a future of deception by this man. Maybe he would repent, maybe his wife forgive, and maybe he would become a changed man.
Maybe not! But those lives around him that he has direct contact with, and is influencing have a right to know.
It can be done properly through the church elders. And they can be the ones to console the wife. And make her aware. Their job is to help their church and all members through trials and tribulations. The Pastor needs counseling and corrrection. And he definitely does not need to be in this position of trust.
But, there are those who think only of themselves, and some who think of the masses.
A true Christian doesn't put their own self interest ahead of others.
We have a unique situation, and circumstance here. That requires revelation where needed.
Also, with silence, 20 yrs is just allowing the A to escalate. At some point, these two will meet in person. His W and OM. it's just a matter of time.
Then it gets even nastier and more entangled.
Good advice many times falls on deaf ears. Because people asking don't hear what they want to hear. They ignore it.
so why ask? Just follow your conscience. if you have one!
LouLou

I wonder what the Bible says about standing by and allowing ungodly behavior to continue.

Basically, my point is you could probably make the "God would want" case either way equally strong (if not stronger for telling). So it usually becomes reasons for "what I want".

I'm not saying your're wrong, but more warning that this could be another whole can of worms in terms of a theological debate.

Well, here it is straight from the bible! Not my words, but God's!
Regarding admonishing a sinner:

Matthew 18:15

A Brother Who Sins Against You

15)"If your brother sins against you,[2] go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16) But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.'[3] 17) If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

And regarding how a minister is to conduct himself and of what morality he is supposed to be example:
1 Timothy 3
1 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
14 These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly:
15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
I think Matthew explains it very clearly. This man is to be taken to task by 20 yrs, then before the elders, two or three, then if he refuses to correct his behavior, telling his wife truth, church elders,he is to be taken before the whole church!
This isnt' about said pastor being able to just slink away and hide his sin. He's to answer to his God, his wife and his church!
And he has a responsibility to ask your forgiveness also!But repentance is a first requirement. See in other scripture is you wish in Bible Gateway study bibles. All types you can research. NIV, King James, etc.
As for your wife, 20 yrs, she's to answer to you and God! if she refuses, treat her like a pagan!
Not me, but God said all the above scripture.
Check it out for yourself.
Keyword, Bible Gateway.
LouLou

Jimtex, the only person responsible for your wife's numerous A's is her! Not her mother, or anyone else. Her choice.
I see too many people blaming childhood environment, parents, school teacher, aunt, uncle, you name it.
The bottom line is once we become adults and free to choose, we can be the person we want to be. Some choose low life style, others climb out to the slimey pit. I assume each person has a brain separate from family? They just forget to use it or refuse to use it because then there would be no excuses for their behavior.
I grew up around some alcoholics. Do I drink or have I been alcohol addicted? NO WAY!
I chose to avoid the nasty addiction of dependency on alcohol to cope with life. It made me ill to see wasted lives. Choice again!
I could sprawl around drunk all the time, have refused to hold a job, and fallen into other low life styles with an excuse it was not my fault. It was the way I was raised and what I saw.
But then I'm too intelligent to use a cop out.
I and anyone else has choices. We climb above the slime and gutter life.
The truth is when someone is raised around filth, addictions, etc, it should be more likely to show them what not to do with their life.
Not the reverse!
I commend you on staying put with a wife who has multiple A's. Hope she's finding out it's a choice and changes her behavior.
Ohterwise, you'll suffer many times before you decide to call it quits.
They say past behavior is a predictor of future behavior and I believe it is true in a large percentage of cases.
Glad to hear she's in therapy also. Good luck. God bless, LouLou

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MelodyLane:
<strong>Heart,

With all due respect, what in the world are you talking about? We were discussing the PRINCIPLE of telling the OP and the pastor's church and you are off manufacturing some bizarre, high drama soap opera scene. What is the relevence of that? How can you even hope to have a rational discussion when you keep changing the premise of the discussion?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NO we were NOT,,,someone said that the OW and the church should be informed at ALL costs,,it was a SPECIFIC situation we were discussing,,,,and then Lou Lou said she would inform the church ANONYMOUSLY which I belive would be VERY damaging (not to mention impractical). I am done with this post,,,,I will keep my irrational, bizarre, high drama, soap operatic little opinion to myself,,and I would like to know how you can even PRETEND a statement like that is "respectful",,,but then again, I could be a "molester" ,,,,,unbelievable

yes it is,unbelievable...................... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Weird how some people can look at a post or suggestion and take it to Heart!
Isn't it?
Yes, I would inform the church so they could take a close look and even question the congregation in small groups, even the young ladies and boys. Subtlely.
Everyone has temptations, but for certain, a pastor is supposed to know wherin his strength lies. And to be morally strong and above reproach.
Sometimes the tares have to be weeded out for the good of the garden!
Does this thread scare you Heart? Wonder why?
LouLou

Oh boy....... Ok another 2 cents.....

OM can be of 'any' profession. Still does NOT give him the right to be an OM. Why? Because an OM does NOT have to do with one's profession (except for pimps and hookers - LOL!!)

However, the OM's profession does put him in a compromising situation where his profession does allow him to give support and counsel while supposedly representing a higher source.

Hm..... you think that higher source is not offended by such misrepresentation? Wouldn't you be if someone was doing wrong in your name?

So now what to do?

1. Could go public and cause more havoc.
Gotta weigh the pros and cons here. Sometimes
this is the only way to go.... look at the
guy whose X wore too much mascara?? Can't
think of his name right now. Oh there's more
lots more......

2. Go to his superiors....... see if they have
sense to straighten him out.... Be prepared
for nothing to happen..... Some just get
moved to another place.

3. Speak to the OM yourself...... think he will
listen? If he thinks he is better than you
which he probably already does, then you take
the risk.

4. Do nothing.

5. If your W is willing to come home, what is
she willing to do?

Now the above are just some choices. I am sure there are others. Each have pro and con outcomes. NO guarantees. The OM is not holier or protected by the highest source because of his job title. Just the opposite. However, that message may not be getting down the management chain and the OM may be allowed to think for a while that he has the right to have A or As with whoever and whenever he chooses (which may nulify some of those options).

IMHO, I would pick option 2 unless your W is on her way home. Options 1-4 may result in recovery or D, again no guarantees. Why? Because recovery does depend on the WS repenting and coming home (emotionally as well) and the BS forgiving and accepting the WS back (in all aspects).

Option 2 can still be a choice if your W is repentant. Now why 2 and not the others? The others are too volatile. Even item 4 (doing nothing). Item 4 can cause too much stress on the BS.

See if nothing is said or done, this OM may do the same damage or worse to others. His job title won't stop him from that (though it should). When are we going to realize that a minister, priest, pastor, etc. is just a man with a religious title and does not endow him with special powers that make him better than others? These are suppose to be servants of God not lords over men!

Don't get carried away or beclouded by titles. This man and your W have attacked the core of human society.... your family. Responsiblity to life is the same.

Please pray for a clear mind and a calm heart. It is hard sometimes because we can't do all that we want to do. However, there are ways to deal with this and if applied properly, they will have a much better and longer reaching affect than thoughtless spur of the momment actions.

take care,
L.

I have another thought. Yep, sometimes I do think. LOL
20 Yrs. you said this man was a pastor, but lives 1500 miles away?
Have you proof of any kind this man is who he says he is? How do you know or your wife,that is is actually pastoring in a church. Lutheran i think you said at one time?
he may be 15 yrs old! A prank, a hoax and you're wife falling for it.
Then again, if you truly know the truth and he is a pastor, Lutheran? The Pastor here of same denomination had an A with a member in the church. Well, I'm not sure she was ever a member, I think she just went after him because she met him through buying a product he sold on side, like Amway and such?
When said A was exposed, after his wife found out I may say, he was excommunicated from the church and pastoral degree. At least he won't be preaching in their churches anymore.
His wife divorced him also.
The woman he had A with? Still around, sleeping with all that will let her. she was known in this valley by the name, Easy (her first name).
His job is gone, all his planning and schooling for preparation to the four winds, and his marriage dissolved.
All for a woman whom any man in town could sleep with. She is also a known alcoholic. Still doing her dirt around if anyone will have her now.
At least, the church can put someone new in that position of trust. And yes, pastors are just human. But supposedly a higher calling to serve God and help humanity.
To betray God is worse than betraying a spouse in my opinion. But then, you can't do offend one without offending the other, can you?
Both OM and WW, and that means any, are betraying God first.
Then Spouse. !
bible on fornication and adultery is included in scripture. From 1 Corinthians 6
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
13 Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.
14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

For those of you who would like to read the whole chapter on it!
King James Version (KJV)
-
1 Corinthians 6
1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?
6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.
7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?
8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
13 Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.
14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.
15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
All sin is outside the body except for adultery and fornication!
LouLou

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ladyLou:
<strong>Weird how some people can look at a post or suggestion and take it to Heart!
Isn't it?
Yes, I would inform the church so they could take a close look and even question the congregation in small groups, even the young ladies and boys. Subtlely.
Everyone has temptations, but for certain, a pastor is supposed to know wherin his strength lies. And to be morally strong and above reproach.
Sometimes the tares have to be weeded out for the good of the garden!
Does this thread scare you Heart? Wonder why?
LouLou</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Question the congretation in small groups?? YES this scares me,,,question them in small groups based on an ANONYMOUS CALL????? puhleeeeeeze. Now I know what church NOT to join. OK,,I said I was out before, but since you asked ME specifically a question, i decided to answer it,,,,I'm done,,,,have a nice day

20years...hope you find peace on whatever healing path you take! Good Luck!