I have been posting over at EN but just realized a lot of those following my story only read here, so here's the latest...My W was over for a very long visit Thursday night, and again stopped in for a short (5 minute) time yesterday to pick up a CD I burned for her. Here's the full reports, opinions welcome.

So here's what went down!

My W stayed until 8 PM and showed up around 5:30. A milestone 2 and a half hour visit. No relationship talk at all, just friendly talk yet again. So I guess she didn't have to get to back her place so soon after all. I had munchies out (chips) which she was happy to eat, she had a breadstick, and a tea to drink. I started off by asking her how her day was. She had no coat on but took off her sneakers (I believe this is a first since D-Day) and sat down, told me about a bunch of problems at work with fellow employees...Her work is a real soap opera, apparently. All good stuff, she likes her job but it's getting harder to work there with management, she may eventually have to quit because of it (yeah, that's where OM works!! Good!). She didn't say she wanted to quit though, I'd love to hear her say that. She's a great, hard, talented worker, she could get a new job anywhere and do great. But I know she loves where she works currently, politics aside. So it's still a tough situation. And I still don't feel we're any closer to recovery yet so it's a moot point I guess right now anyway.

So she talked about her work problems, then we watched some TV, I'd taped a special about The Simpsons (she LOVES the Simpsons, as do I) so we watched that and laughed and talked for about 45 minutes. Then we talked about music a little bit, she went out to her car and got a CD that she's been listening to...I listen to it with her, she skips through some songs and plays some for me. I play her some music I have been listening to and give her a copy of a CD I think she'll like. She says she'll copy me her CD as well, I give her some blank CDs for that.

She sees the V-day gift when she comes downstairs to get her mail, I tell her that's for her, for Valentine's Day, and wish her a happy v-day. She smiles and says thanks, she doesn't seem at all upset or hurt to be getting the gift. She likes it! She admires the Hershey Kiss and remarks she won't be able to eat the cookie, it'll hafta sit in her fridge (it's a gingerbread man, she never eats them, she feels bad eating gingerbread men) and she even flicks the little balloon and admires that as well. All in all, it went over well. No hug or kiss or anything like that, but then again, I didn't expect it. Just a small thank you.

I didn't find a computer CD she needed...So hopefully I can find that tomorrow or whatever and she can swing by again to get it -- She said she wanted it for the weekend to work so I'll try and find it for her tomorrow...And she can come by to get it. She said if I find it, she will come over to pick it up. 2 days in a row! I don't expect she'll stay as long next time but you never know.

We talked about the cat, she remarked again that I was too skinny, and said her hips were bigger than mine now (I told her no they weren't, she looked great) but she has always been sensitive about her appearance and very down on herself in that regard. She looks great to me, lovely as always, it's tough not being able to hug her.

She took some stuff for the cat that was still here, and she took a couple of her books with her as well to read.

Overall, it was a really good visit I'd say. A good, comfy, friendly vibe. Again, I can't really say where things are going. I didn't get any impressions from her of anything but friends. But I suppose things are doing better anyway. I did do a little flirty thing with her at the end of the night, I stole her mittens and put them on and said I was going to keep them...She chased me for them for a bit and then I gave them back. Just subtle, but she didn't get upset. Just me playing around.

We talked so much about everything else that we almost forgot to even do the tax forms. Right before she left I remembered and she signed them for me. That's how much we were lost in talking about other stuff though, we both totally forgot the reason she was coming over to begin with.

I'm sure there's more than this, a lot of things can happen over 2 and a half hours and I am sure I forgot some things. But overall, I was happy with the visit. There's no doubt in my mind that we have come a long way as far as our relationship goes. I still don't know about her and OM, nor do I get any vibe about her wanting to come home right now. I think we both genuinely enjoyed each other's company at least. And that's saying something.

---

Friday was tough, being V-Day and all. She did stop by after work but this was a true "stop by", she came in but stayed like 5 minutes if that, we chatted very briefly and she got the CD she wanted and was on her way. I never expected to even see her on V-Day, so I guess that was nice, especially two days in a row, though today she was in and out, and obviously only came by to pick up the CD she needed, not to see me.

I realize she was likely in a hurry to get home to get her place cleaned up for OM when he got there after work, but what can I do...Nothing I can do to control her and her relationship with him. I am sure things must have cooled down by now but I guess he is still a better option for her. Anyway, frustrating, but I am staying on my DB path as best I can, for as long as I can.

I guess it's a good sign at least that she refuses to talk about him or even acknowledge him at all. She never once admitted to seeing him since D-Day even though I know it started right away...But I guess that is her way of protecting both of our feelings. And she can clearly see I'm wearing my wedding ring when she is here but doesn't ask my why. But she notices and doesn't object so that's good too, I guess. And finally, she doesn't bring up divorce at all. She doesn't talk about us either, or ever wanting to see me other than with an excuse to come by to pick something up...But seeing her is enough for me, though I still hope we're working up to something more.

I do see this as progress, though I still wonder if she is just progressing towards a platonic friendship or if she'll ever think of me as more than a friend again. She doesn't show any desire to touch me or anything like that right now, though maybe that will change, it may not, too. That's the hardest part of this progress. I can keep this up for a while, sure, but if things just stay as they are, but she still refuses to have the occasional dinner or date with me, it might be time to start thinking Plan B. But I am enjoying her company for now, and happy our contact has been regular

That's the report for now...More news later as I think of it. Whatcha think?

ALS

ALS:

What do I think?

"she won't be able to eat the cookie, it'll hafta sit in her fridge (it's a gingerbread man, she never eats them, she feels bad eating gingerbread men)"

I think this is very sweet! (and I'm a 250lb, bearded curmudgeon!).

You did good. Keep doing it!

-QFwfq

Yeah, she's a sweet girl, she has a lot of very cute characterisitics and stuff like that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

She thanked me for the cookie but did tell me that I should know that she won't be able to eat it, and he'd hafta live in her fridge. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Anyway, I'm continuing to listen to my coach for suggestions, her latest is that I invite W over for dinner next week, and hope she accepts. Personally, I feel that my W is refusing to do anything with me without a "business excuse" because she'd see it as a betrayal to OM. She's already betrayed me, and if she's dating OM, to see me socially, she'll be betraying him as well. So she'll be cheating twice. I know it's wacky logic, but I'm stepping in the WS's shoes and that's how I think it might be.

So, in a nutshell, until her relationship with OM is over, I am worried I may not get any sort of social interaction other than with excuses for business-type stuff. But I will still remain hopeful and do the best I can for as long as I can take it.

Thanks man!

ALS

Awesome!

ALS ... Next week, or whenever it is you're gonna be sent into a tailspin or those times you find yourself trying figure her out, remember encounters like the ones you had this week with your wife. You and I are a lot alike, in that we think about stuff too much, assuming too much about the unknown. The visit this week is something that's known. You were there and it made you feel good and you could tell it made your wife feel good. It's an important thing to have to keep your perspective.

The gingerbread man was a very nice touch. Not only is she very sweet about how she won't eat them, but that you gave it to her is very playful and loving. That's good ... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> .

Cerri continues to give you good advice ... and you continue to implement it well.

ALS:

And don't forget... ...that gingerbread man is going to be staring out at her with a smile on his face every time she opens her fridge! ...does he look anything like you? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I admire your coaches strategy here. You are young, have no kids, and have been married a relatively short time. This is a delicate balance you're working to preserve right now. I think you're doing great. Maybe she'll come to dinner, maybe not. Just don't judge her or show your disappointment if she decides not to at this time. Heck, don't BE disappointed (by that I mean, just don't expect anything). You will be giving her an opportunity to accept your invitation with no strings attached.

Small steps, Sparks! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
-Qfwfq

Whippit -

Hey, great to hear from you again. You're right, I tend to focus on negatives a lot, but then I usually try and think of a positive right away to counter things off. I still get moments of anger and frustration, mostly just daydreaming about what OM and W are doing together, especially on weekends. But I keep busy. I'm in the middle of the blizzard in the northeast today, so I just shoveled snow for a while, and will likely be out there a couple more times to try and stay ahead of it today. We're supposed to get 2 feet total.

Thanks, Whippit - Whenever I'm down I'm going to think back on last week and how great things went. I still can't be sure if my W is just trying to be my friend again and that's the extent of it, or if there's a potential for more -- But I have to focus on the small steps for now, as long as I can handle it.

Coach Cerri has been fantastic, and I'm following her advice completely, even when I don't agree with it -- I haven't really misstepped yet with it, as long as I am careful. She's careful to make sure that even if I don't take any steps forward, I don't take any backwards either. So I'm doing my best with that.

Qfwfq - Yep, you're right, that cookie, if she does save it, will be there as a reminder, and that's a good thing. I just love making her happy.

I'll be sure and go into next week with no expectations at all. I really don't have any, if anything I expect a decline moreso than an acceptance, but an acceptance would be splendid as well. But I am prepared for either outcome and not putting any pressure on the situation.

Thanks you guys, it was great to hear from you today!

ALS

I have been following your posts for a little while and really hope that things work out in the end for you. With that being said, it seems to me as though your WW is stringing you along and not working towards rebuilding your marriage. The social visits that she pays to you are cruel in my opinion. I say that because she "pops" in for a visit and picks up CD's that you have made for her, watches television, eats snacks and then she is gone. There is no talk about where your relationship is headed and in the end you are left wondering if things went well. Why should she change, as she can have you meet some of her emotional needs and at the same time continue her affair with the OM. It sounds to me as though you need to use plan B to break this cycle. If she ends up wanting a divorce at least you will have some closure. You are not that old and I am sure that there are other women out there that will not play you this way. I feel as though it is time for you to draw the line in the sand with a good plan B letter. Let her see what it will be like to go through a period of time without having you available anytime she wants. Anyway, I wish you well and hope that everything works out.

Mfisher, thanks for your thoughts.

You are correct in that Plan B is what is going to come if this phase continues. What's basically going on now is just me implementing changes. I'm not sure how long you've been reading my posts, but for a while, both before and after D-Day, I was not the perfect husband. Sure, I thought that I was, but I finally realized a lot of what I did to contribute to the downfall of our relationship.

Now, it's a 2 way street of course, and my wife needs to realize her mistakes and build back trust, etc, as well. And I agree with you that right now she's not showing any interest in our relationship or making any strides towards a reconciliation between us. So, absolutely, Plan B is going to come if this continues.

But first, espeically considering all the mistakes I made after D-Day (I did a lot of crying, begging, yelling, accusing, spying, and pretty much kicked her out of the house), I needed to first calm down, take a deep breath, and learn. And I want to show my wife that I'm a better person than I was back then. That I'm learning and will continue to learn. And I want her to know that I was willing to work on our marriage. These visits I'm getting now, even though it sounds like she's just coming to get what she needs, are also showing me a couple of things -- First, she still does enjoy spending time with me. If she didn't, she wouldn't stay. And second, she's seeing that my changes are permanent. I'm not acting, I'm a better listener now, and doing a lot better than I was after I found out about the A.

This isn't going to go on forever, though. I'm following the advice of my coach, who gives me some weekly steps to take. If things improve, even slowly, we stay in Plan A. If they stay the same, or backslide, Plan B will begin. I'd say, given the way I feel now, I'll be in Plan B in a couple of months if we're not progressing. I can't do this forever as you've suggested and perhaps Plan B will make a bold statement. But before I go there, I wanted to make sure she'd have some happy memories of me, and see me in a better light, so there'd perhaps be more of me to miss when Plan B does begin.

ALS

ALS,,,,,,take heart,,,,,two months ago, that is the EXACT visit my hubby and I had on a visitation with our child <my choice, he sounded then exactly like you do NOW>,,,,a month later, it was a week at home to talk (we lived 500 miles apart, so just "popping in" isnt really possible) where we had some time together, wine and cheese,fabulous conversation and a foot rub <grin> etc,,,,and FOURRRRRRRR days from now I am going HOME for good,,, Right now you DONT want to put too much pressure on her,,and REMEMBER she fell in love with YOU and it STARTED as friends,,,,why couldn't she do it again?? you WANT to improve your friendship right now. I havent seen too much of your story, and I dont know how long yall have been separated, but if reality is hitting her relationship with OM, you might start looking good,,,,and thats EXACTLY what you want right now! So best of luck <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> PS,,Oh,,and I agree with the gingerbread man thing,,,,ANYTHING that reminds her of you in a GOOD way is DEFINATELY something you want to encourage,,,,sounds like providence she can't eat him <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Holly

<small>[ February 16, 2003, 10:51 PM: Message edited by: HeartHealing ]</small>

ALS:

I will say again that I think you're doing a good job, considering the situation and the time that's gone by so far. One thing that I see happen a lot around here during plan A is that the BS focuses on making changes to impress the WS (which isn't a bad thing), but not do enough soul-searching within themselves to really come to grips with what in their own behavior might have contributed to the withdrawl in the M.

I've got a support group that's been urging me to do just that for MONTHS now, and I'm only just realizing how big a part my fear of opening myself up to my W and showing her my weaknesses has played. To be truly honest with your S, you need to be willing and readily able to expose your weaknesses to them. That can be extremely hard to do (was for me) if you truly believe that your S (or worse yet, the OP) is interested in using your weaknesses against you. I only just realized this last Friday, and I can already see changes in my W as a result of my being able to honestly tell her how I feel.

You want to be at a point where you can do this with your W, so that she can feel secure doing the same with you, before you give up on plan A. If you go to plan B too soon, your M may simply be over.

I'm hoping that you two will "find each other" again before too long.
-Qfwfq

HeartHealing,

It's really great to hear responses like that, it really is. I realize all people are different, and situations vary, but it's nice to hear that in your case, visits like that were the start of things turning around for you. That's all I can really hope right now. I don't expect things to improve overnight, I know the only way I'll ever get back to a normal relationship with my wife is by these small, baby steps. I'd be too scared if it happened too fast anyway. So long as things continue to progress, and get better, I'm happy. If I see things start to go backwards, or get worse, I'll re-evaluate and decide where I'm going next.

It would great if in 2 months my wife is condering coming home, it really would. In 2 months I'll be at the 6 month anniversary of D-Day...Which is when I realize by then, a lot of affairs burn out. I'm hoping that, as things seem to be so far, my situation will match the statistics. I do believe as long as the A is continuing, it doesn't really matter what I do. By the way we've been seperated for 4 months. My hope is that OM may be starting to "show his spots" as they say, and that she might consider coming home in that case. The big question will be that, if OM and her break up, will she want our marriage again? I sure hope so. I think we're great together.

Is that not eating the gingerbread man thing on Providence? I'll hafta tell my wife that, I never watched the show, but that's funny.

Qfwfq,

I have to again thank you for being so diligent in checking my posts, I really appreciate it. I have been reading yours as well, but you have a lot of great advisors there so I've been mostly lurking. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I will admit to, at first, making changes because I thought it was what WW would want, and doing that to get WW back. I definitely made that error. I even was trying hard to point it out when I talked to or saw my W. I have since stopped that completely, and I think that HAS helped. Again, I dunno what it's helped with as far as a relationship goes, but it's definitely made things more comfortable between us when we DO see each other or talk.

My changes now are for me. And for whatever relationship I will have in the future, be it with my W or someone new. I have become a better person, and will continue to do so. I know a lot more about relationships and what's needed to foster a healthy one that I ever have before.

The weaknesses thing is a tough one. I think at first I tried to tell my wife I realized everything I did wrong, and that I could make it better, but that didn't work. In that way, I did admit to my weaknesses, and my fears. But she was uncomfortable hearing it. So I've since left that out of conversation. I'm not afraid to admit to anything about my feelings, I just think, at least right now, it just scares my wife away.

I hope we can find each other again soon, and feel the feelings that we did when we found each other 4 years ago.

ALS

ALS

I think the "trick" to telling your W your innermost feelings and fears is not to preface them with something like "here are my innermost feelings and fears". That would put her on the defensive, or label you in some way. No, the best way to do that is to slowly explore what she'll take. Don't say anything that will put her off, and if that's pretty much everything, you're going to have to tread lightly to find out how to start the process.

Very genly, ALS.
-Qfwfq

Thanks for the advice, Qfwfq.

The last time I tried to talk about anything regarding my feelings, I saw a huge withdrawal from my wife...She isn't able to look me in the eye, gets quiet, and wants out of the conversation as soon as possible. This happens whether I'm talking about us or even just myself in general and how I behaved in our relationship. So I haven't tried that in a while, out of fear of a backslide.

Perhaps the opportunity will come up again, as I'd love to talk, and if I get that chance, I will remember to take it slow, and not open up the floodgates as I've done in the past. Heck I'd just love a minute or two to let her know my feelings about things if I knew it wouldn't risk me ruining everything for good. But things are very delicate right now. Still hoping that will change.

ALS

Just a brief update, folks...

C's recommendation after having a fairly decent week last week was to extend a dinner invitation to my W for this Thursday (our usual day of contact as of late). Actually, it was to extend a dinner invitation to the CAT (a creative cute way to do it) via an e-card. So I did do that yesterday and the e-card has been read. No response yet, though I expect to hear back today or maybe not even until tomorrow. I'm sure my W will get back to me, but I am unsure of the answer.

I do believe if she turns me down she'll make an excuse, just because she feels bad to flat out say no. It's a tough time for this, considering she is still with OM and it's just past Valentine's Day. I still believe we're at the point where she believes seeing me for anything other that a "business" reason is a betrayal to OM. So we have that to wrestle with.

I wish there was a way to convey that these attempts I'm making to spend time with W aren't trying to speed along the process or put pressure on her. I feel like she worries that showing interest in spending time with me will get me, well, too overzealous perhaps. I'm enjoying every minute with her, for sure, but I am also a lot more patient and happy with just occasional contact still, so long as it's regular and things are at least slowly improving (or at least, not regressing).

So, anyway, I'll let you all know what the answer is. Cross your fingers for me and send me some good vibes! I know it's just a dinner together, but it would be great to spend a little time with W again this week. I hope she'll say yes.

ALS

ALS:

So... ...what if you get an email reply from the CAT!?

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Reminds me of a joke you should use on your W sometime:

ALS: "You know? Cats are really smart! They know when it's your birthday."
W: "What? Impossible! Besides, they don't show any indication that they know."
ALS: "That's right. They know when it's your birthday. They just don't give a $h!+!"

Have fun,
-Qfwfq

An email reply from the cat would be fine with me, actually. If she's feeling playful she might actually send an email from the cat. The cat could still turn me down just as easily, though. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I like that joke! Good stuff. We should start a joke thread here. Not only do I love telling a good joke, but I think it's a great conversation piece for when you're seeing your WS too. I always try and have a new joke to share.

ALS

I think it's a great conversation piece for when you're seeing your WS too.

Ahem! Apparently you haven't had my standard lecture on the use of labels... including and especially the "W" one...

Thought you were safe here... didncha?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

C

You're absolutely right, C. From now on, no use of the W (as in "wayward") from me. I clearly remember you telling me that and I didn't forget, it just comes naturally to type these darn abbreviations and forget what they mean.

From now on, it'll just be "W" for wife. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

ALS

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ALostSoul:
<strong>You're absolutely right, C. From now on, no use of the W (as in "wayward") from me. I clearly remember you telling me that and I didn't forget, it just comes naturally to type these darn abbreviations and forget what they mean.

From now on, it'll just be "W" for wife. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

ALS</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are just the bestest coachee.... I wish everyone was so well behaved!

C

Well, frustration is setting in today. My W confuses the heck outta me sometimes. Even 4 months since D-Day, her behavior remains impossible to predict.

Anyway, looking at the clock here, I see that it's basically about 9 hours until the proposed time I asked my W to get together for dinner. She read the email invite on Tuesday afternoon (2 days ago). And she still hasn't had the decency to get back to me with an answer.

I assume at this point her answer is no, but I am pretty disappointed that she didn't even have the decency to get back to me yesterday or Tuesday, even if it was just a one line e-mail telling me she didn't want to come over.

I'm as patient as the next guy, and I still at least hope she'll be considerate enough to get back to me today, but she remains very unpredictable and inconsiderate to me, and it does cause some major love bank withdrawals.

After having such a good day last Thursday, I was hoping that our communication lines would at least be more open and regular now. But since Valentine's Day, I haven't gotten a bit of communication back from her.

I realize it's sort of a taker-like behavior, but I also don't feel like a quick reply is asking for much. I just hope inviting her over for dinner didn't scare her away or something. I guess she still only feels she can see me when there's a legitimate "business" reason to do so.

Just a frustrating day!

ALS

<small>[ February 20, 2003, 08:28 AM: Message edited by: ALostSoul ]</small>