I am confused. On one hand, I get the sense that the moment you decide to leave, that enough is enough, your W starts making you dinner, being nice, and having SF. Which points to her, push comes to shove, not wanting to sever the connection.

On the other hand, your description of her almost packing your bags for you, getting a cleaning lady etc. sounds like she feels a bit too cozy with the idea of you moving out.

Nick, unless you feel like you can continue a marriage of convenience indefinitely, you somehow need to get it across to W what her divorced life is going to be like.

I sympathize greatly with your feelings on looking at apartments. Actually facing a separation from your spouse is devastating. And I don't think that moving out precipitously is the right thing to do. You need to do your homework Nick and you show no evidence of having done so.

Before separating, you MUST resolve custody and financial issues. You can't bolt out the door without even having settled with your W how often you will see your daughter. You can't just leave your house. You have to figure out ultimately if you do divorce, how will things be paid for- would you both sell the house and get new places? What kind of child support would you pay?

I am not saying that will lead to divorce, or that you've made up your mind to divorce. It's just part of the discussion. Perhaps discussing and envisioning the future will be a wakeup call to your wife.

In my opinion, you moving out, while W sits pretty in the family home with D while you pay for everything and take care of D at times--- No I think that is just playing into W's fog. I have always thought that.

Lisa - same warning to you: If I hear the 'soulmate' thing once more I'm going to snap :-)

Espoir - of course you're right! I havent done my homework, and leaving isnt going to solve any problems. I realised that. But now it looks to me like I've two basic options - a) a fast-track divorce or b) keeping shtum, and continuing to hope that one day I'll wake up and everything has just been a dream (yeah, sure).

Of course, discussing arrangements is key, and we have to do it. But nevertheless, all answers my wife gives to tough questions are: fine, let's divorce. I'm afraid of calling her bluff - maybe it isnt one. And then I'll be there, she'll be there with life in tatters. As the one who sees the things reasonably clear, without a fog, I sort of feel a duty to hang on and not making things worse, ie fast-tracking a divorce. Or am I simply playing into her fog by doing so, and feeding her undeciciveness?

"This is why you can't do Plan A forever.... it will eat away at the feelings you have, so when the A ends you won't care enough to restore the M... AND it makes it impossible to do a good job long term."

"If you think of Plan A as an arc... Plan B should begin just past the apex of the curve. While you are still strong enough and care enough about your spouse and the M to stick it out for the long haul ahead. "

"Once you begin the downward descent on the right hand side of the curve (assuming you are culturally conditioned to read from left to right) you are undoing the good work you did in the beginning of Plan A. The impression you leave with your spouse will not be as pleasant.... and in fact if you wait until you get to the bottom of the curve... they might even be happy to see the end of you!!! NOT the effect we're hoping for!"

Nick, I apologize if you've read this already but I thought of you while reading the above post from Cerri to ALostSoul. I think you run the risk of undoing the good will you've established in Plan A if you let this drag on much longer. As Espoir noted, the key is to find out on your own how to best simulate what conditions would be like if you were D'd. I'm not familiar with laws in the UK but is there no way you can get her to move out while retaining custody of your D? To me, this would be the best possible scenerio. Good luck and hang tough....

Do you think your W wants to get divorced?

If she continues to treat you this way for another year or so, would you want to get divorced?

Why is talking about divorce the same as fast tracking divorce? I know with my WH, we discussed the possibility of D quite concretely. And ultimately he said, I don't want a D. All this talking about D happened without any separation or any filing.

However, before you even discuss it you need to have your ducks in a row and figure out what you envision as the D reality. For example, I don't know the laws in the UK- would you want joint custody, how often would you want to have visitation? What about the house- how much is equity, does it get split? Would you have to sell the house?

Frankly though I would have a quiet visit to a lawyer to get information. I actually did that myself- never told H. But knowing what the laws were and how the D would go down made me feel more confident and helped me not fall apart. I knew I would survive D.

I think you are in a difficult position though with W. There is a different dynamic with WW than WH. WW can really guilt trip their H because society expects H to be the provider. If W has custody, it's hard to separate depriving WW of money versus depriving child of money. Some WW can really be manipulative.

Maybe there's a way to talk about it with W calmly, in a IF we divorce, how would we handle it post divorce? Maybe ask her what is thinking in that regard? As in- W, you've told me you can't commit to our M, and I realize no matter what I do, we may have to face divorce down the road... what are your thoughts on how we'll handle coparenting our daughter? She may say, well, I'll want sole custody, and if you've done your homework (you need to have an idea of the law) you might say, well, I would like to have D X% of the time. If she starts to argue, you then just say, we're not at this crossroads yet, and I hope we won't be, but it's probably good to think about this stuff.

Just an idea. It may be premature for these kinds of talks. I don't think you should move out. I think the distancing you were doing is good. Maybe the marriage counseling will also kick in.

Nick123,

I am sorry here, but there is no way I would be moving out.

She did this, she needs to be the one.
You can still help with the support thing,money, bills so on. Get it in writing!

Think about your D(I know,stupid I know that you have.)But she will be seeing Daddy leaving, even thou this isn't about her she will think in some sm way that it is bc of her. Let the W take that burden, bc in a way she has already left. (affair in all)

Not to mention the fact that you have no idea what your W will be saying about you once your gone.

We all like to think that the WSP won't be nasty, Or "He/She could never do that." It does happen thou.

Why should you be the one to leave???

Just an Opinion

Take Care,

VB

Nick,

Good that you have taken a step backwards. Espoir is so, so right IMHO. Take time to discuss the realities of your seperation and make sure that it reflects as closely as possible what (both) your lives would be like post Dv.

Personally I think whether you or your W moves out is a bit immaterial. I know, I know the principal should be that WS moves out... but think about what *you* want. If you have to seperate would you prefer to be living alone in your M home... or would you actually prefer WW to be living alone there, maybe realising how lonely and empty it seems etc etc?

My decision was that I prefferred to move out (W was happy to go also) as I had spent enough time there alone).

As Espoir says *talking* about DV and planning a seperation is NOT a fast track DV. It's sort of a trial DV <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

It is very hard and I think your W wanting to help pack your bags is maybe just her wanting it to be resolved asap so that she *doesn't* have to go through the above thinking process and take her share of responsibility for the changein situation. If she rushes it she can tell herself down the line "oh it was Nick who rushed out the door when things were tough".

Hang in there, don't rush it and talk it through - slowly.

I very much agree with bowd. Except to say that talking about dv is not even really a "trial dv". You're just conceptualizing it really. You can bring it up just as a scenario.

It won't happen unless somebody files. I doubt your wife will file. How would she pay a lawyer?

And you don't have to file if you don't want to. You'll only file when you are ready to, if the situation doesn't improve and you get completely disheartened.

Nick -- I've been hesitant to post to your current situation because I am in such an odd place right now. As always, espoir has some excellent advice to you. I have never regretted the more thoughtful steps I have taken in this mess and will always regret steps I took in the heat of the moment.

I do think you need to think about getting yourself out of the current situation because it is taking a toll on you. How you remove yourself is another matter and espoir's counsel to raise possibilities of D with your WW seem wise to me.

Physically separating is not something to take lightly, however, I find myself thinking that nothing is going to change with your WW because she is still in a fantasy world where Nick is the root of all evil and OM is all lightness and soulfulness.

None of us can really say what you should be doing. We can only offer our perspective and our empathy. What I can see from your posts though leads me to think that you are rapidly losing your love for your WW due to her continued actions of angry outbursts and blame.

I understand the fear of going to plan B. I think you have to ask yourself what have you got to lose by initiating a what if D discussion and a physical separation discussion. What is the reality if you are D? What happens with your daughter? What happens with finances? This discussion certainly cannot be any worse or any more risky than the other conversations you've had recently with WW.

I hear in your posts that somehow you think going to plan B is rushing to a divorce or giving up after all your hard work of plan A. I felt the same, but the reality is that it is neither of those things. It is an opportunity for you to remove yourself from the daily drama and pain and really look hard at what you want and need. As espoir so aptly put it, you don't have to rush headlong into a D. You don't have to file.

Hi everybody,

Thank you Litchfield, Espoir, Bowd, Virginia and USH for giving me your advice and opinion, and thank you all others who just read it and thought of me. I definitely feel a bit better now, not so much under self inflicted (and WW induced) pressure anymore.

I find it terribly hard discussing the divorce points, because it's something I don&#8217;t want to do, something which is wrong, something I fundamentally don&#8217;t believe in, and something I know will cause hurt, pain and anger for all involved - wife, child and myself. It looks like WW still thinks that Divorce is sort of a magic bullet which will solve her problems - why cant she see that this is just continuing & accelerating the self-destruction process? It's as if she has dug herself into a hole, and instead of reaching for my outstretched hand she thinks, well things are already that bad, so many eggs and porcelain broken, so let me just keep digging deeper and deeper. And for me it's extraordinary painful of course, as I really love this woman, despite of it all. She is lost and suffering from being lonely, from the death of her loved ones, and she can't reconcile her actions with her believes, with what she knows from her home country and from the social norms here. She keeps saying that it's "simply because we got used to each other" and keeps on mentioning the instances when I let her down, or when she expected more from me. From my side I searched my heart and found the answer, I am sure of it. It's more than 'gotten used to', it's certainty that she is the partner of my life. If this is not love, what is it?
I do not think the mechanics of a divorce & separation would be cause of huge disagreement, like e.g. who sees daughter when for how many nights. The reality will be different of course, when daughter will be crying for mum when she is with me and vice versa. Only point I would imagine is who would live in the house. But thinking about that, the only solution would have to be anyway that we would sell it, so she gets her half of the equity. Also in case of a separation, that's the starting point I guess which will provide WW with her share of the equity in the house as means of living.
You know, I really really thought that we were, maybe not in recovery, but at least just a block away from the road towards it. And then I discover that she is still in contact with him&#8230;. brought me right back to where we were a year ago.
I've asked her several questions, like: how long does she think we can continue with this cycle of anger/blame/"giving the best to recover"/maintaining contact behind my back/lying to me/me finding out? Has she been always in contact with him? Has she struck an "agreement" with him to look and see with Nick, and then dump him when convenient? Does she believe that our relationship can improve whilst she is still in contact? What are her plans for our marriage? Does she want to be my wife or not? Does she intent to maintain contact with him? If not, what does she suggest to do in order for me to believe her this time? I believe that as long as I am married to her, as long as I wear the wedding band, I am entitled to these answers, straight, no lies. We will see the MC again on Monday. She promised to "think about it all and let me know on Monday what the answers to the above are". Maybe that will define the next step. If she can't commit, or, if she wants to dump me straight away, then we'll go through the motions of separation. But she has to realise that this is her decision, not mine. That she has to carry the full and sole responsibility for such a step. She always sort of tries to make me an accomplice in this by trying to convince me "why we don&#8217;t fit together" etc - from the various posts here I gather this is a common pattern in wayward spouses as to alleviate their guilt.

But, of course, it takes two. And I can't go on like this, with her continuing to lie to me, betray me. It just destroys me. I deserve a better life, not one where my emotional needs are professionally ignored. I'm still hopeful, I still have the energy&#8230; but if she wants to dump me, to destroy the family, then that is what she will get.

Regards from London,
N

<small>[ February 26, 2003, 07:01 AM: Message edited by: Nick123 ]</small>

Hi Nick,

I'm so sorry you are going through all this. The fog is thick for our WS's isn't it?

I don't think it makes much difference whether you move out or WW but I do think that you must do what feels right to you-and I get the feeling that you don't think ejecting her is right at all. But I DO think a review of the finances is in order if you do go.So she only gets the necessary allowance for your daughter and a bit for her.

But Nick are you sure you want to go to PLan B? Are you ready to go to PLan B-your love for her is still so strong, would there be any value in recommitting to Plan A?

But Plan A with boundaries?

I'm probably the least sensible person on MB at the moment as our situations are similar. I know how emotional you feel,and I share the anger and the rollercoaster. Funny how just when you feel numb and dead, that ol' bubble of hope comes bobbing up to the surface again.

Still vibing you from Devon!

Regards,
Deluded

Thanks for the vibes and your input Deluded. I am still confident and hopeful and behave accordingly. If she wants to go down the separation road, well, then we separate I guess, starting with allocating time of our daughter, starting splitting the house and everything in there etc. If she "doesn&#8217;t know", and plays for time? Then I maybe will have to press for a separation, as this nightmare is grinding me down. But as you say, Deluded, even when the situation seems dire and hopeless, suddenly there is the ol' ray of sunshine and hope which makes everything seems so worthwhile. Regards from sunny London, Nick