Jen:

Cali's got it. Don't tango anymore.

When I posted to your other thread, I really didn't mean that you should go away from MB necessarily (though sometimes that's what *I* need to do, depending on my mood).

Your H wants you to tango, so he can step all over your toes.

-Qfwfq

Jen
Hello
I can't offer much but a hug. You are stronger than you think, even in your weakest moments, you are stronger than you think. You have come so far.

Don't second guess yourself.

Hugs
Zoey

What is it that you want Jen? Remember... you shouldn't become a cake-eating fence sitter like your H is right now. You're wavering back and forth with what you want, and it's all based on emotions. As hard as it is Jen, STOP FEELING! Look at the facts, assess them, and act upon them.

I know you want your M so badly right now. I have been there too. I also didn't care to heed the abusiveness of my H, or his addictions. And I had 1 1/2 yrs of false recovery b/c of that.

What would it take for you to feel (and know) that you did whatever you could possibly do to save your M? Because, until you're there, you'll continue to waver. I'd say, you should base your plan on that... decide what would make you happy and content that you did all you could... and then do it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

IMO, you've already done all you could do (short of being worthless, and backing down to your H's selfish whims of you being his sex kitten and kissing his a$$). I don't know what you need to do to see that for yourself. I wish I did, so that you could avoid all of this hurt and pain. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Karen

First, a little realization: You know, there are a few reasons why I wasn't willing to talk to him on the phone last night. One, he was drunk. Two, he kept watching the memorial service (on tape) during all the calls, very loudly in the background. Three, he kept hanging up when he didn't like what I had to say, often in the middle of what I had to say. There's no reason on earth why I should put up with any of that, none. I deserve better than that. I know that. If he can't see that, too bad for him.

Well, Orchid, I know I should try the whole reverse babble thing b/c it works, but well, I'd rather be direct if I can. I'll just save that for when things get messy I figure. I like your suggested response about my self-esteem. I've said it before about having self-respect. Maybe I'll just mention both.

Cali, I guess I see your point about the two of us both struggling to be in control. A couple of control freaks we are, could be the fact that we're both teachers, or a bad habit practiced over the years, who knows. Work on me and forget trying to be in control - yeah, I know that's what I should do. But when he pulls stunts like this, it is hard to ignore him and "work on me."

Thanks Q, you're right, he wants to tango just so he can step all over my toes, oh and also cop a quick feel of course. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> He doesn't seem to have any other long term intentions that I can tell. And why am I staying with someone who doesn't have long term intentions? It's not like we have kids or anything.

Thanks Zoey for your kind words of encouragement, again! It's good to hear from you.

Actually Topie, I wanted to be with him so bad, up until his stunts last night. Now I don't want to be with him. Talk about a yo-yo I guess. You ask what would it take for me to know I've done all I can? I tell you, I pretty much felt like I had done it all, then his father passed away, and my resolve went out the window.

Now I think I need the chance to tell him what I want, and what I'm willing to do / put up with. I need to know what he wants. If he hasn't decided he wants to try to work on this marriage, that he's sure he doesn't want to be with me, or at least that he doesn't think he wants to be with me, I'm done wasting my time and his, and causing us both more pain than either of us deserves. It's also time to stop leading both of our families on. I need to have a proper conversation with him, about the relationship, and not on the phone or with him under the influence. Enough of me avoiding R talk and plan A-ing him. It's time to talk. Yes it means putting pressure on him to decide, but it's all in the name of sanity, mine and his.

I figure there's a good chance he'll try to show up at my apt tonight. Seems to be a pattern of behaviour for him. If he does show up, then it's time to talk. First, I guess I should ask him, "What do you want from me at this point?" and maybe also, [B]"What do you want from me in the future?[B] I'm betting he doesn't have any answers, other than for me to kiss his a$$ and be his sex-kitten as Topie said. So, then the way I see it, he has three choices:

1) Ask to keep things as they are, no promises on his part, he wants to stay in contact with me, but minimally and only when he's in the mood, and primarily for secret sexual encounters. He still gets to remain undecided about whether he wants to be with me or not. I'm not willing to do this, so we end contact.

2) Tell me he does want to try being a couple again and work on this relationship for real. This includes formulating a plan for how we'll do that (eg. including dating, on a weekly or biweekly basis, maybe MC, maybe going to church together again, etc.). This doesn't mean he has to stay with me, but that he's comitted to putting in an honest effort at this, that includes treating me like a human being with feelings too. So we would continue contact.

3) Tell me he's sure he doesn't want to be with me (or that he can't forgive me) and that he's waiting for the one year mark for a divorce. He'd rather find someone else to marry and have a family with than risk being hurt by me again. We end contact.

Again, if I tell him he has these three choices, I'll be accused of being holier than thou, high-fallutin' etc. But, that's what I feel like doing. Telling him those are his three choices. I can only live with number 2 at this point, or it's plan B time I guess. If looking after my own self-esteem is selfish, highfallutin, and superior, then so be it. I can live with that.

I hope he doesn't come over though, it's just going to ruin my night. I have better things to do, like marking and laundry and watching Joe Millionaire!

Jen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Jen:

"I figure there's a good chance he'll try to show up at my apt tonight."

Any chance you could take a sabbatical and teach in some far away place, like maybe Tuktoyaktuk or something?

I got asked to consider teaching in Fort Yukon, AK, once... ...I bet the mosquitos and black flies would have had me losing a LOT of weight before the first semester was over!

-ol' Qfwfq

Calm is good. Remorse with genuine emotion for the affair is great. Putting up with abusive behavior is bad for both of you. If you can talk about your feelings about the behavior, his and yours - then he can't argue with feelings.

And losing one's father can be absolutely devastating. It happened to my H - delayed reaction. At least your H is working through it now - a good sign. When you take a step back you will realize that you will always wonder if you give up now just as he has reached for you.

I don't know how about choices just yet. He is still very raw. Maybe tell him what you see happening - your dream - & see if he shares any piece of it. If he does then build on that.

Jen,

I whole-heartedly agree you need to talk this out with him. I guess the whole MB concept is to maintain certain boundaries and refocus your energies on improving the entire picture rather than just focussing on..."what about us?" all the time. However, the point is the get "us" working again. He seems to want everything on his terms...that is not possible. There is a difference between emotional honesty and wearing your heart on your sleve. When people are faced with the extreme challenges infidelity brings on many of us panic...we harp on how things are going...we want to talk about us 24/7...we want to be reassured constantly that things are ok...and without help we either bully our spouses into submission or drive them away. This is where MB comes in. It is a guideline for general interaction. It is about fixing the whole picture because when you hyper-focus on the relationship you will kill it. Every situation is unique. Every person is unique.

Just because your behavior may upset him does not mean it is an LB. Consider the plight of a battered wife...if her spouse considered her calling the police after he beat her an LB does that mean she shouldnt take action to protect herself...ofcourse not. There are times when your husband is abusive. He does not like your attempts to combat the abuse. This is not an LB.
He needs to understand that you want to show him remorse but remorse does not require submitting to abuse...it does not allow for him to get even...it does not condone his dehumanization of you. (Do you realize through his phone calls last night he actually threatened to harm himself if you did not accept his verbal abuse...he would take a shot everytime you didn't answer the phone...blackmail)

Really what does kissing his a$$ mean to him...
allowing him to call you names...you've done that...
allowing him to use you sexually...you've done that...
letting him have his way at every turn...you've done that
calmly, rationally reacting to his worsening behavior...you've done that
stand by him at the worst moments, being his whipping post at will...you've done that

Honestly what else is there?

I am sorry but his a$$ must be ruby red from all the kissing it gets from you.
There is not perfect plan A...or plan B...there are just guides. All you can do is find clarity and peace.

Even after all of this I think he is very much in love with you...it tortures him. I don't know how to help him. I don't think he knows how to help himself.

I wish you all the best Jen

ayslyne

<small>[ September 17, 2003, 08:26 AM: Message edited by: still forever hers ]</small>

Jen - first of all don't think there is only a specific time period that you can post here at MB. Post as much and as long as you want. When you need a break you'll know. Take it and come back. I've done that a few times but come back b/c I need the reinforcement - a new learned behaviour.

Anyway, I thought that perhaps it might help you to share my story. H and I are in recovery after my brief PA. Some roadblocks along the way caused by unanswered issues in our M. Last week we had a conflict which triggered something uncomfortable in me (H's reaction to something that happened). We spent a day in WD, then had a long talk. What materialized was some really brutal core honesty. H thought one thing, I thought another intially. By the time we finished getting through our conflict we both had good tears in our eyes and it brought us to a totally different level of intimacy. I believe this is caused from bearing one's soul. Sometimes it's hard to know what exactly is wrong until you have an all out get it all out discussion (without LBing and I'm afraid for your b/c your H isn't good at that).

But if you do try to reach out to him I really recommend bearing your soul. He sounds like he's continuing to bug you b/c he's looking for something from you that you haven't yet really provided. I know you're remorseful, but do you really know WHY you had the A with his friend? Have you examined all and broke it right down to it's core to find out what you were really really missing that caused it? I've read everything you've posted and I still think you're hiding from something and you're scared to show your H your weakness b/c he's so verbally abusive when you've interacted.

I'm no expert in any plan A or plan B so take this for what it's worth considering I'm in a pretty good position with recovery going well. Maybe it's safer for me to bear my soul b/c I trust my H and his reactions. The control your showing around your H is good, but he sees it as a roadblock - that he can't get past your logic and how you now think. It's not really important to go over details of the A that's not what I mean, but I think soul-bearing is in order. Perhaps telling him your fears - your current ones. Your H isn't good at drawing things out of you - only LBing so that's scary for you.

I hope I haven't confused things. I just want things to go well for you Jen.

Krissee,

Thanks for sharing your story. I do wish I could bare my soul and be totally and completely honest with my H, but as you say, I'm afraid to because he either can get mean, will cut me off, dismisses what I have to say or what I feel as not as important as him or his feelings, starts calling me callous, unfeeling, etc. Generally he LBs when I try to open up. Or he takes my being honest as an LB of sorts, like I'm attacking him by telling him how I feel. It's as though it's all supposed to be about him and his feelings and not me or mine.

"I know you're remorseful, but do you really know WHY you had the A with his friend? Have you examined all and broke it right down to it's core to find out what you were really really missing that caused it? I've read everything you've posted and I still think you're hiding from something and you're scared to show your H your weakness b/c he's so verbally abusive when you've interacted."

I think the "why" or the affair is something I've never really fully answered for my H, b/c he only ever asks me that question on the phone, or in a dismissive "I don't really want to sit and listen to a long answer" sort of manner. He's certainly asked it several times though. Maybe the next time I should have my list handy. I actually have a list. Main reasons are I spent too much time with OM, we got too close. I have a huge need for attention, appreciation and admiration I think. Also, I was hurt and/or resentful about the closeness of my H to his two female friends, it was almost revengeful on my part to develop such a close friendship with OM, since my H didn't seem to care that his friendships were bothering me. He hates to hear that third reason though. Doesn't buy it. Usually I answer his question with something about me not being smart enough to say no, b/c he only ever wants a quick answer, he doesn't really want to listen.

You've made me think Krissee, thanks. I need to tell my H that I don't think he really listens to me, and that I feel like he really doesn't want to hear my answer to the question of "Why did you do it?" I am reluctant to answer him for fear of him being mean or short with me. I should tell him, if you really want to discuss that, let's sit down and talk about it, face to face, and just be really honest with each other.

Maybe that's the whole problem. To be a good little Plan A-er, I 've avoided R talk, and limited it to what he brings up. To avoid being hurt, I tell him only little bits here and there. If we can't sit down and have a soul-baring conversation, we can't ever work towards recovery. Hmmm......

Jen

Hi Jen,

Please forgive me if I come off too harsh. I truly don't mean to. I do hope that this only helps you. I have followed your story and have tried to offer advice from the very beginning, some good – some bad or at least so I thought. I apologize for this being so long.

It seems that you just can’t let go. You have lived in a marriage (pre-A) that centered on a husband that emotionally abused you. He degraded you, made fun of you and thought of you to be not worthy of him. To me at least, literally pushed you into the arms of another guy. I am not excusing you of what you did. He has every right to be upset with you, but the way he goes about this is and has been way out of bounds.

You come here looking for advice and have been given great advice by some. I only know of a few guys that chime in from time to time, but it seems as most being the ladies. What you did, not just once, but multiple times crushed your husband or so it seems. It’s different for guys when the wife cheats on them versus the other way around. My wife has told me that she would have been much more forgiving and letting it go than I have. It bothered me for some time that that was so. I realized though and after reading countless books, web sites, advice, chat rooms and so on that it’s just plain different for guys. However, it does not excuse your husband from acting the way he is unless he acted that way before the affair or affairs. Unfortunately the latter seems truer for your husband.

There are die-hard romantics that will say keep Plan A’ing. Keep your chin up, become that doormat. Well, I just no longer prescribe to that in this case. I know, because I have been on both ends. I too, am a romantic that doesn’t want to give up, never ever, ever! But…… your husband needs a wake up call. He will always, unless you stop it, continue to emotionally abuse you. He needs a wake up call. Some advice here told you that if he doesn’t change, what have you lost? Not much I suppose. He just now has an excuse to act the way he does. Again. I know because I’ve done it.

I was that type of a person that your husband is/was. After my wife’s affair, I noticed my love bank dropping to a very serious low. I drank often and was waiting for her to come around as far as wanting to make our marriage work. I had to put my foot down until she did. She didn’t want to because of the type of person I used to be. This affair of hers also gave me an excuse to be a mean, hurtful (emotional), vindictive, manipulative jerk. I did so until she wanted me to also work on my marriage and for me to come back around. This is how far I let myself go. When I would say something mean that always related back to what she did – she would calmly ask me why I wanted to hurt her(emotional)? Why was I being so mean? She would tell me she understood why I was upset and I had a right to, but to calmly discuss why I was hurt. Why what she did crushed me. Why every fear in the world came true to me for almost two years. Why I could never talk to anyone but keep it a secret, because I didn’t want her reputation destroyed. I could only feel crushed and let my love bank drain.

Your husband just doesn’t care right now about how you feel. He knows it and how to push your buttons. Until you say enough is enough this pattern will never stop – ever! He needs help and needs you to stop “taking” it. Do you want to grow to hate him? I see it in your posts from time to time. I know because you vent the way a lot of us have felt. You have made a huge turn around. Been very remorseful – probably what a model WS should be. Again, you need to be very short, frank and to the point. I also thought at one time that my wife should just bend over and kiss my a#@. Wrong! Boy was I wrong! I paid for that. I’m sorry Jen. It’s just a way that us jerks feel that we should get what we always had. As far as being a sex toy. I guess guys just need to “reclaim” their right. Again – wrong!!! You talk about Plan B and saying enough is enough and then back to the abuse. Why?

Your husband needs to know that you love him and always will. He needs to know that you will no longer put up with hurtful comments, drunken behavior, a spouse that does not “sleep, spoon” or what ever else they do with other women and that it needs to stop. The people you and your husband have become need to be left behind. Let him know that you want to start over and begin a new future with him and to have a marriage the way it should be. If not Jen, then your husband is gone. Something needs to slap him and slap him hard. As far as his phone calls go, either change your number or get a caller id to stop answering from calls from him. He should “only” contact you in the form of email until he decides to make this marriage work. If you see him, walk the other way. Don’t set yourself up. As far as wanting to talk to him. Honestly Jen, when has he wanted to actually sit down and talk to you about what happened? You have been waiting for it but never happens.

This has nothing to do with the in-laws. This has to do with you and him. This has nothing to do with his father’s death. This is an excuse for him and you are letting him do it. You say it time and time again. “I need to be there for him. I don’t want to be a cold heartless “bi*&h”. “ You were there. Now it’s time for your husband to grow up or you to move on. You sound like someone that would make a great wife. Either let your husband choose you or move on. This can only happen in Plan B. Don’t pick up the phone. Make sure he is nowhere around when you see your MIL or BIL’s. He needs this just as much as you. Plan A can only go on for so long. Whether it is 1 month or 2 years. When you experience what you are from your spouse, it’s time for a new tactic. I wish you good luck and apologize for this being so long.

Jen,

I started scanning through your post and don't know much about you and your husband's history, but thought I would just throw some words at you about alcholism and affairs. I am a recovering alcoholic and my wife had an affair. One problem that I see in your situation is that if your husband does have a serious drinking problem, you won't get to far in applying marriage builders concepts until both you and your husband deal with the issues that his alcholism cause. Trying to use MB concepts on someone that is drunk is going to get you know where fast. For me, there was no hope of our marriage recovering until I dealt with my drinking. For me, that meant getting into individual counciling and becoming involved in the AA program. Once I did this and started turning my insane lifestye around, using the MB concepts had some hope of working. Alcholism is not an individual disease, it affects the couple and the family. For every alcholic in a family, there is also a codependent person involved. My advice to you (and I appologize if you are already doing this or if this advice is not applicable to your situation) is to get involved in Alanon. Let me know if you want to know more about the program. you can't change your husband, but you can change you and by doing so, you may give your husband some incentive to want to change himself. The key though is to focus on changing you.

My thoughts for what they are worth.

God's strength and much patience to you.

<small>[ February 25, 2003, 12:51 PM: Message edited by: Tom ]</small>

Jen,
Is he a real alcoholic? If so, he has some issues that have nothing to do with you regardless of what he tells you or tries to make you believe. You may be told one thing only to be told another later on.

Have you ever been to alanon? It has helped so many people deal with the issues that you post about. In the new edition of Love Busters, there is a section on addictions and related stories that may be helpful to you. In a nut shell, the addiction must be brought under control before anything else. In that sense, SSA / plan A - B may not even begin to be effective until sobriety. It kind of throw the rule book out the window.

As my sigline shows I have dealt with addictions. It took me 17 years to figure out that alanon was for me. It took the gentle persuasion of BrambleRose on these boards to get me to go and for that I am forever grateful.

D.

Jen,

I may be way off base here, but after monitoring all your posts, and trying to "see" where he's coming from, I want to throw my thoughts out there.

Jen, I honestly can look back 10 or 12 years and see where I could be him. Gee...I think about those earlier times in my life and truly realize where I was so ignorant. So ignorant, in fact, that I could be capable of destroying something, just to be able to say that I was the one "controlling" the destruction.

Pretty sad, isn't it?

First of all, I am absolutely not condoning his behavior. But I think I know where he is. And that is the boyish stage of....

"I don't get mad. I get even."

I honestly think that is the phase he is at right now. He is h3ll-bent on obtaining the feeling in himself that he has hurt you as bad as you hurt him. He is hung on getting that "buzz".

Geez...that is one delicate situation. Your appearance of strength, being able to take so much from him, only makes him feel that he hasn't "broken you down" yet. But then again, you can't hardly do it any other way because that could have some difficult consequences as well.

It is obvious that his method of fixing this is to bring you down to his level, therefore giving him that "fair" feeling again, instead of trying to rise to yours.

Every time you rise above it, he feels the need to jerk you down a little harder, and farther.

What to do? I really have no idea.

I think his toying with you is very telling. He can let you "assume" that he is having a full-blown A, in order to satisfy himself that he is placing upon you the exact circumstance that he had to deal with from you. But...he cannot cross that line, so to speak, because he IS afraid if he crosses it, then YOU are gone.

I think the close relationship and spooning, not to mention the question of "what would you do?", is sort of his game of "Look here, Jen...I'm gonna do this....I really am...How does that make you feel, Jen?" and it goes on and on and on.

He's found his torture mechanism.

He's gonna stop, Jen, when the consequences begin to affect HIM. Not until.

Think about that, Jen....

HCII

hcii:

That's an interesting observation!

Hm... I'm thinking back on my behavior in the past... No, I don't think I'm particularly similar to Mr. Jen, but I can see some of my THINKING in years past as similar to what you describe.

hcii: Sometime, post a new thread and tell us how YOU are doing these days! Been a while. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

-ol' Qfwfq

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jen Brown:
<strong>
"When did you feel you got the right to set all the rules and act like you're all powerful and all mighty and your high-fallutin' attitude? Where'd you get that from? Because you certainly don't deserve that attitude."

I hear that as, when did you get a backbone? I got a backbone after I went for some counselling and learned about boundaries and started to have some self-respect and placed value on myself and my feelings before those of others (eg. my H). But if I tell him that, bang, another LB.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your husband is an alcoholic. The responses that healthy people would make to your changes do not apply here.

I know someone earlier posted that it's an LB if he perceives it as an LB, but sometimes it's just the scared response of an addict who sees his enabler becoming healthy without him.

In addition to working on this site I suggest you go to an Al-Anon meeting. You can find them on the net, or look in your phone book for local chapters. They will give you insights on your husband's behaviour that you cannot get from here.

It is very common for an addict to lash out at his/her parner when that partner starts to lead a healthier life.

The talk about 'high-fallutin attitude' is his attempt to bring you back down to his level. He sees you beginning to communicate better and improve your mental life and it scares him.

Go to Al-Anon. It will greatly help you. But be prepared to get conflicting advice than what you get here at times. Marriage Builders is for otherwise healthy individuals.

April

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jen Brown:
<strong>
1) Ask to keep things as they are, no promises on his part, he wants to stay in contact with me, but minimally and only when he's in the mood, and primarily for secret sexual encounters. He still gets to remain undecided about whether he wants to be with me or not. I'm not willing to do this, so we end contact.

2) Tell me he does want to try being a couple again and work on this relationship for real. This includes formulating a plan for how we'll do that (eg. including dating, on a weekly or biweekly basis, maybe MC, maybe going to church together again, etc.). This doesn't mean he has to stay with me, but that he's comitted to putting in an honest effort at this, that includes treating me like a human being with feelings too. So we would continue contact.

3) Tell me he's sure he doesn't want to be with me (or that he can't forgive me) and that he's waiting for the one year mark for a divorce. He'd rather find someone else to marry and have a family with than risk being hurt by me again. We end contact.

Again, if I tell him he has these three choices, I'll be accused of being holier than thou, high-fallutin' etc. But, that's what I feel like doing. Telling him those are his three choices. I can only live with number 2 at this point, or it's plan B time I guess. If looking after my own self-esteem is selfish, highfallutin, and superior, then so be it. I can live with that.

I hope he doesn't come over though, it's just going to ruin my night. I have better things to do, like marking and laundry and watching Joe Millionaire!

Jen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You aren't really giving him much of a choice. Only 1 allows him to keep you. Perhaps a better way would be to say that you would like to work on your relationship and ask how he feels about that. If he says he is not ready, then tell him that you will no longer be contacting him and that you are moving on with your life.

If he says he would like to work on your relationship then that's where you start to negotiate.

Giving him 3 options is what you do to a 3 year-old child when you want him to feel a part of the process of choosing his own clothes but don't want him looking like a clown at school.

April

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jen Brown:
<strong>
Oh, and oaktown....there's only one huge problem with sitting down with him mom and telling her that. It means that I'm inviting her into our marriage and our marital problems, where she doesn't belong. It means that I 'm trying to go through her to get to my H, also not right in my eyes.

Jen:(</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's residual fog from your affair talking. Radical Honesty. Try it. How can you expect any kind of reasonable advice from his mother when she only knows half the story? And you don't seem to mind her being involved in your marital problems when you look like the good guy and your husband looks like the [censored].

Time to clear the fog out and let the truth set you free.

April

Jen,

I have read the last few posts from the MB guys. Jen, please forgive me for not giving you the right support. Reading their post really opened up my eyes. I am ashamed that I did not recognize it sooner. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

The guys are right. If your H has a drinking problem (big or small), he needs to get help for that first before either of you can work on the M recovery.

I think many of us were focused on helping you and you are doing such a great job of moving forward that (at least in my case), I lost objective.

BrambleRose is great at helping the BS deal with a WS and alcohol and these guys are giving you great insight.

I am hoping that what you have been told is not too hard to process. Jen, you are not a bad person. Instead your H needs help.

Yes, you have both done wrong and now you both have the opportunity to fix it and move forward. For now though your H needs more help than you to get to where you are at. Maybe that is why you have been holding on so hard. I understand that. I certainly did not expect myself to have the endurance that I showed. Strength comes when we need it.

Please take care.

L.

Wow, thanks for the many responses. It's a lot to digest. I've taken a peek on the net at the local Alanon site, and there are several meetings I can choose to go to in my city. I hesitate a little though, because someone told me before that maybe I am an alcoholic too, b/c I used to binge drink (eg. intentionally get drunk on a Friday or Saturday night, nearly every weekend for weeks on end last spring). Really, my H and I and OM and some other friends all went out together and would drink like that. I rarely drink anymore, maybe 2 or 3 drinks at the most now, maybe once a month or even less, and that's always with a group of people, never home alone. Before, my drinking was like an excuse for me to behave poorly before. It was an unhealthy way to escape the stress of everday life. I honestly thought it gave me a license to be more of a flirt with OM, etc. Drinking just doesn't appeal to me anymore. Where do I belong, alanon, or AA???

I have to admit, I'm a little afraid of going to an alanon meeting by myself.

Orchid - no need to apologize!! You had the best of intentions, and I appreciate you helpful input always.

Oh, BTW, my friend talked to the BIL I called on Sun. night to check on my H. He said he called my H and my H was just fine, so he kind of wondered what I was on about. Perhaps my H was just putting on a big show for me.

So anyone want to place bets on whether my H ignores my birthday altogether, makes a drunken phone call to me, or actually does anything nice?

Well, I need to think some more about all this. Time 4 bed.

Jen

PS: I changed my address for two more of my bills today. By this time tomorrow, I will have contacted the other last couple of companies that think I still live at home so I no longer have to get mail through my H. The only problem is that I can't tell my employer I've moved, or all our joint benefits will cease, but at least they only send me mail on rare occasions. (All of this is to make plan B easier if/when I get there.)

<small>[ February 25, 2003, 11:53 PM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>