I have really hit rock bottom and am looking for outside perspectives. My husband and I have been married for almost 3 years, been together for almost 11. We were both working very hard at establishing carreers, and unfortunately took each other for granted a bit. I had finally worked things out at work and had begun to work on our marriage. I thought things had improved and that they were going well. We were discussing buying a house, and starting a family. We won a cruise to Bermuda, and I was planning on really reconnecting with my husband. Needless to say, on the cruise he told me that he no longer wanted to be married to me. He said he loved me, he just wasn't in love with me.<P>I was shocked. I asked him to try counseling as I thought that one of our problems was lack of communication, and I had been trying to repair that. He refused. He said what is wrong, him not being in love with me could not be fixed by counseling. I asked him if he was seeing someone else, and if that is why he wanted out, and he said no. He said he needed to be on his own if this had any chance at all.<P>I agreed that some time apart may help, however I asked him if we could set up "dates" to spend time and get to know each other again. He said he would consider it. He travels a lot, and left to go on a business trip to europe. <P>I have since found out that he had been having an online affair with a married woman from england. They met for the first time last week, slept together the first night they met face to face. They now beleive that they are in love. She has asked her husband for a divorce, and my husband has asked to same of me. <P>I know that my husband and I each made mistakes in the marriage, by taking some things for granted and not cherishing each other as often as we should have. I have been trying to improve on that. I thought the past six months had been a great improvement. I felt myself falling deeper and deeper in love with him. Now he refuses any kind of counseling. He is convinced that counseling could not improve what we have, and that we would not work out. He beleives that he could have a great relationship with the woman. I should mention that she also has two small children. I would truly like to work things out with my husband. I still beleive that we could have a strong marriage, and could rebuild it back to where it was when we first married. He has said that he felt that the marriage was not a 50/50 split, but that he was taken more responsibility for coming up with creative recreational activities. I felt that I was taking more responsibility for establishing a home, stable environment. Is there any hope? <P>I know we have a lot to work out, but I think the marriage is worth saving. I can't convince him of that. He just wants to walk away. Any advice?

Irma,<P>There is ALWAYS hope, even though it doesn't feel like it right now. Your H is smack in the middle of the fantasy stage of his affair. He thinks he loves her and she's all he can think about. He lied to you about her for his own reasons. <P>I come from the perspective of both betrayed and betrayer. Recently, I was the betrayer. Betrayers ask to leave for one reason only, and it isn't to "find themselves" or think about things. They want the freedom to pursue the other person. Sounds like your H is there right now. <P>I'm sure you'll get lots of advice about Plan A and then Plan B. I never tried either, because I didn't know about them when my H betrayed, and when I did, my H went right into Plan B even though we'd never heard of it. The one thing that I know for a fact that works is NO LOVEBUSTING. Go to the Harley home page and find the tests for love busting and emotional needs. Take it yourself and try to get your H to fill one out (he probably won't though). <P>Most of all, don't give up just yet! I don't know if you're a spiritual person, but prayer works wonders and I will send a few your way. <P>Best wishes...

I hate to tell you this but you felt everything was going well because you were getting your needs met, having everything planned out in your own time frame and completely forgot about your husband along the way.<P>I see this so often when one party becomes deeper in love and the other withdraws... the person who is becoming more and more in love is taking all of their emotional needs and instead of giving back what they partner needs... they instead either revel in their own glory or give back what they "THINK" their partner needs without ever actually asking.<P>Of course your H is in love with this OW and not with you... if you have read everything on here you will know there is a difference between loving and being "in love". This OW is meeting the emotional needs that you H has gone so long without... that is why they both feel they are in love, they are giving to each other.<P>I am sure your husband harbours a great deal of resentment... I know if I were in his shoes I would be the same. Watching you set your career up, putting all your effort into it, neglecting everything I needed... and then, eventually saying "Now its time to work on the marriage". Its a common reflex at that stage for the resentful person to go "NOW you think its time... so YOU decide the time is now and we do it... not when WE needed it... not when *I* needed it but now that you are damn good and ready".<P>Sometimes its enough to put that person into complete withdrawl, it is such a love buster that his account is so much in the negative he can never see it changing. When he tells you there is no hope he is saying that because he has been used to you not meeting his needs, that is what he is familiar with and he is so far in the red he cannot see you stopping being so selfish and starting to think of anything but yourself (remember... this is how it "sounds" when resentment talks)<P>If you want to save your marriage the first thing you have to do is find the Top 10 Emotional Needs of your husband... DON'T try to work them out yourself... ask him. Read the section on here about it and follow the steps.<P>Then you need to pour absolutely EVERYTHING you have into them, you need to totally and completely forget about ANY need you have and meet at the very least his Top 5 a thousand times over. If any one of his Top 5 needs are not met it wont work and you will lose him... that means if he says "sexual fulfilment" is one of his top 5 needs then you can't complain or balk him in any way... anything you do now will crack his already fragile core and will love bust him.<P>It will take months to do, and along the way you will feel completely left out, totally taken for granted and even sometimes very resentful of doing anything for him... You will start to see him as selfish and there will be voices in your head SCREAMING for you to TAKE instead of keep GIVING... you have to get passed these if it is to work.. because only when you have restored him to being "in love" with you will he start to reciprocate.

irma_minger, let me just say how sorry I am to hear of your H's betrayal. I agree with Lost Soul that you have to try to apply the Harley methods, even though it may seem unfair and you may not get anything back for a while.<P>Lost Soul: Did you read her post carefully? She says they BOTH neglected their marriage to concentrate on their career. You're implying that her H sat around and morosely watched her do these things without him, had no say in the matter and when pushed, had an affair because his needs were so sadly unmet. Irma_minger clearly states that they were both pre-occupied with their careers, and both to blame (though H is at fault once he had the affair, IMHO). And let's not forget who had the affair here -- her H could have spoken up about his "unmet needs" long before he took the decision to have an affair, but he chose not to. He could have given irma the chance to make things right, if he was communicating with her properly. All I'm saying is that there are two sides to this, and please don't try to make irma feel like it's all her fault. What you said about her neglecting him was very negative, and that is hardly productive.

I would like to thank you all for the suggestions. Right now I am sitting in a half empty apartment, or so it feels. My hubby cam home to get the rest of his clothes and some of his personal belongings. I asked for one final time if he would like to try counseling. I told him that I know I neglected him and began to take him for granted. I apologized for not noticing sooner that hings were slipping out of control. I also told him that I would like to try counseling. He is convinced that counseling wouldn't help. I told him there are no guarantees, but I think we stand a great shot. I told him I am still madly in love with him, and still want him in my life. I helped him pack his clothes and told him that I understood he needed his space and some time. I also said I would not push counseling anymore. I asked him to keep the lines of communication open. Even to talk as just friends like we were before. He didn't mention seperation or divorce at all during this time (almost 2 hours). After he finished packing his clothes he walked through the rooms to see if he forgot anything. he said all the wedding gifts, CD collection (over 300) furniture, computer and things are mine. I truly feel he has given up. I have an appointment with the counselor tomorrow. Going to be a hard night. Thanks for your support.

Cristalle... affairs are rarely a one sided thing and although it is wrong to resort to one the blame doesn't rest squarely on the shoulders of the betrayer.<P>I take it you were the one betrayed and perhaps that is why you see it that way.<P>The bottom line is that her H is in withdrawl while she is still in conflict. I find it diffuclt you saying I wasn't positive... I did try to tell her he hasn't falled out of love and explain what he is thinking...<P>While both were building careers it was her that decided it was time to switch... the number of men that go along with this is amazing... what was he going to do? Tell her he wanted to start a family while she was still career building? Don't think so <P>Maybe he did try and tell her and talk about his needs not being met and she said "Not now... must build career"... if she said she neglected him then that tells me anything he tried to tell her would have been neglected as well.<P>Just some thoughts.

Lost Soul, of course no one is solely to blame. I didn't imply that the full weight of the problem rested on irma's husband's shoulders. They BOTH neglected each other, and BOTH took each other for granted. Fault can be assigned equally, there.<P>All I am saying is that once he took that step to have an affair, he is solely responsible for that decision. One has to try everything imaginable first to save the marriage, and then if the marriage is unsalvageable, dissolve it before finding someone else. <P>Yes, I was betrayed, but I can assure you I have always felt this way, even in more "innocent" days. I feel it is cowardly to "have your cake and eat it too" -- if you are both so darned unhappy and can't work it out, get a divorce for heaven's sake. Don't go lining up an escape route in the form of another person first.<P>And somehow I doubt irma is such an automaton that she replied "not now, must build career" when (and if) her H approached her with his concerns. I think the more likely scenario is that he and she both said nothing and he went to get his needs fulfilled elsewhere, without giving irma a chance. Irma, can you help out here? I'm just assuming now.<P>What you said was negative because you tried to assign all the blame to irma. You implied that she was the one who had let the marriage slide, and her poor husband sat on the sidelines wanting babies and who knows what else, unable to get his point across. What you said about meeting needs was right on, but I felt you mixed it up with negativity about what irma may or may not have done.<P>You say blame doesn't rest squarely on any one person's shoulder -- but aren't you blaming irma more than her H? He is the one who had the affair, after all.

I guess I need to clarify things. It is true that we discussed starting a family a few years ago (maybe five) at that time, we both decided we were too young and had too many things we wanted to do together. Actually it had been my husband more who wanted the career. I would have been content to start a family. What can I say, he convinced me. Wasn't really that hard to do anyway. So like I said, this past six months have been very busy. He travels so much and had been so busy trying to sell the company that we spent little time together. I am not putting the blame solely on him. I also got involved in a messy lawsuit at work and put in some long hours... Needless to say, after about 3 months of that, I decided that if we continued in that fashion, we would not survive. Little did I know that my husband had already decided. In fact he said he has felt this way for 6 months to a year. He came by lastnight, got the rest of his clothes, and we talked a little. He still will not go to counseling, in fact now he says that he isn't even attracted to me anymore. Hit me when I'm down..... I told him I would give him time and space. I hope he thinks. I would still like to work on our marriage. I think we have something worth saving, if he would only realize it. He acknowledged last night, that he has been in love for easily 10.5 years or a little more with me. I asked him, to think about the highs, as they were so good. And the lows? Ironically, all occurred in the last six months..... That's why I think this could be helped.... I guess I am just wishful thinking.

Irma-<BR>Read the books Surving and Affair, After the Affair, and Private Lies. They will help you understand what's going on. <P>Sorry I don't have more time now.<BR>-Annie

irma,<P>This sounds snarky, but in time he will either come around, or one day you will wish you could send the english twit a thank-you card. There is a light at the end of the tunnel, so don't despair. Well, ok, that's not really realistic, despair is unavoidable for a while. Still, my point is I have been through most of the steps and I can tell you it doesn't stay awful forever.

I am not sure if I just made a huge mistake, or the right step. After talking to several people, many of them suggesting that I give my husband some time to think alone, I decided that I would try to do that. Very difficult decision, as he is my best friend, and I am very used to talking to him 2-3 times a day while I am at work, and of course when he comes home. In case someone forgets, he had come by on tuesday and packed up most of his clothes and moved out. Yesterday, he had found out that I had transferred funds from our joint savings to my personal account, mind you on the advice of a lawyer. He seemed fine about it.<BR>Heres the potential problem. He called me at work today, (I kept my deal and didn't call him). He told me that he had spoken to a lawyer who was furious that I had transfered the funds. Keep in mind that yesterday, my hubby didn't mind. He asked that I transfer 1/2 into his private account. I told him there was no problem with that, I had not intended to keep all of the cash..... just following lawyers advice. We talked a bit about us. He is still convinced that we are history. That the problems we have are that we are two different, that he is not "in love" with me, and that we have different goals. Sad thing is, we have the same goals, and we are more alike than he wants to admit. I tried to tell him the feelings of being "in Love" can come back, we need to work on it. I admitted that the past six months have been rocky, that I didn't communicate as well, and that I took him for granted (trying not to place the blame on him, as I feel it was shared). I also said that I thought we were coming out of it, that we had hit the low and were rising. I asked him to give us six months, of really working on our marriage to determine if we are truly through. His reply was why six? Why not 1, or 2? I said we coulld start that way, as long as he agreed that if we saw any improvment, he would extend the time. He said he didn't even want to try.<P>At this point, I took the next step, which is where I think I may have made a huge mistake. I told him that I still love him, will always love him, and am still madly in love with him. I could not imagine my life without him by my side. I understand that he needs his space and time. As such, I would imform him of when the checks arrive for the account, but that he would not hear from me again. His response? How do you expect to work through this if we don't talk? I don't understand that?<P>I told him, as hard as it is for me to do. I will give him his space. He will not hear from me. He asked if I would take his calls, how would we talk about things? Through mutual friends? Lawyers? I told him I loved him, and I said good bye.<P>I haven't stopped crying. I am still praying that he will think about this and want to work on our marriage. I am scared that I could not let him go if I need to. I don't know if I can live without him.... feeling very lonely, depressed...... Did I just push him away forever?

Just needed a sounding board as I feel I am going crazy. Is it crazy to still want to work on my marriage even after everything? My husband has told his parents that he is sure there is no hope. I am confused as he hasn't even tried. I am losing faith fast...need help.

If you're crazy then so are the rest of us. My H has left and has told me to let go and he wants a divorce so he can marry the OW. I Haven't talk to him in a month, he hasn't talked to any one in our family. But I still keep hoping. I don't why except for same strange reason I still love him and want him back. Hope is all we have keeping hoping and trying.<P>------------------<BR>di<BR>

I have not spoken to my husband since 9-17. I have not seen him since the 14th when he came an dpacked the rest of his clothes. I found out from friends that he is looking for a new apartment. I was doing fine, of course still wishing and praying that he will come back. All of a sudden something will happen that shatters me again. I received a notice from teh Post Office that he is having his mail forwarded. I cried myself to sleep that night.<P>The Ow is planning on coming over to the states to visit my H around Halloween (his birthday). I am dreading that time. He is gone next week on business, the following week I am gone, so the first opportunity I will have to see him again won't be until the 11th of October. <P>Right now I am sending him letters. (actually have only sent 2) Basically telling him how I feel about him, my hopes and dreams, and memories of how we fell in love, not once but twice. I hope that it will still something so that he will want to sit down and talk about us. I know in my gut that this marriage can work. I feel it in my heart. I pray to God everyday for the strength to work on this, and that he will bring my love back to me. I have not mentioned the other woman to him at all. Still not eating and sleeping as before. I must say, the nice thing is I have lost about 25 pounds. Hopefully it will stay off. I still have no desire to eat, I just do it to try and make other people happy. They keep bringing food over...... hate to see the stuff go to waste.<P>I wanted to thank everyone for listening to me rant. My usual coping mechanism is to talk to my best friend (my H) who ironically doesn't want to talk about this. I can't give up on us yet. I feel too strong about us. I still love my H with all my heart.

IM,<P>There is still hope. I would suggest that you protect yourself financially, and do everything your lawyer told you to do. He is in the fantasy part of his affair, and he is not thinking of you, his marriage, or anything else but OW. He's not even someone who will negotiate consistently or fairly.<P>I would stick to plan A, meaning no lovebusters and trying to meet his needs - but at this point you probably won't get any deposits into his lovebank. Looks like the affair is going to run it's course.<P>I think if I were you, I would try and get the legal work changed to a separation and not a divorce.<P>Work on you, and don't try and figure him out. He's in la la land, and he's not able to be figured out. None of it makes sense.<P>You hang in there, and know that this does happen sometimes, and it is painful - but you can survive, and overcome.<P>