I have been lurking on this board for a while and finally decided to post. My W had an inappropriate friendship w/ OM, a friend of mine. We were friends with OM and his W and enjoyed doing things together. For about a year, my WW and OM had secret telephone conversations, often daily,in which they discussed both marriages. They exchanged advice about how to deal with spouses (me), and went as far as to say "I wish our marriages could be like this," but then immediately added that they were too much alike, and that they would make a horrible couple. She says there was never any sexual chemistry, and it was only a kind voice on the other end of the line during a problem time in both marriages. She also said that neither of them were disparaging of the other spouses i.e. she gave him a female perspective to show where his W was coming from and suggested ways to repsond to her that would not push her buttons. He gave her a male perspective about where I was coming from. Could go weeks without talking when neither of them was in a particularly rough spot in the marriage. My W and OM's W were very good friends. She said that sometimes OM's W would confide to her that OM suddenly seemed to understand her, and he knew just what to say, and they ended up having great sex that night. My W always thought secretly to herself that she had helped them.

My W and OM's W broke off the secret contact nearly a year ago when OM's W became suspicious. I knew none of this, and as far as I know, OM's W knows none of it. We remained friends with the other couple until 6 wks ago when my W had a falling out w/ OM's W, which may or may not be related to the inappropriate friendship. Reasons for the falling out that were given when OM's W broke off the friendship sounded paranoid (you've been talking all over the nieghborhood behind my back) and are not true.

My W confessed all to me six weeks ago. We have worked (are working) through this. I believe her about all of the above, and do not believe it ever went any farther, because we have been through some grueling sessions, where I do not think she was lying to me. I don't want to get wrapped up in whether this was an EA or not. Definitions really don't matter. The truth is that while I feel angry and betrayed, I am also glad he was there for her when I could not be, glad that it did not go too far, glad that he was (for the most part) supportive of me in their discussions. Given where both marriages were, it could have been far worse if they had turned to anyone else instead of each other. I want our friendship with other couple to continue. I have not spoken with OM about any of this. We are in a NC mode with other couple. My W thinks that OM's W intuitively knew that something was going on, but could not put her finger on it, so she came up with these imagined slights to reconcile the feelings of mistrust and justify ending the friendship. My W feels guilty, remorseful, says OM's W is better off without her as a friend, does not want to do anything that would break up OM's marriage, etc.

My question is, Do I talk to OM? OM's W? My W says no, and is afraid of the repercussions. Knows that OM's W will never forgive her and believes that OM's W will make it into more than it is and tell all our mutual friends that she had an A. My mind tells me to let go of the friendship and concentrate on the M. I know that I cannot continue being friends with them if no one tells OM's W, now that I know. But I still feel like the friendship between the couples is solid and worth saving. Any thoughts?

Whether or not it was an EA is relevant, because after an EA, there should be no contact. There was clearly an EA (the secrecy alone confirms it) and therefore there should be no contact. See Emotional infidelity.

Furthermore, she should send him an NC letter and copy his wife. Read through "Surviving an Affair" together, and see what you think.

<small>[ February 27, 2003, 01:15 PM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]</small>

I appreciate your input, but that answer seems like an oversimplification. While the secrecy is a HUGE problem, the substance of what was said was not destructive to either marriage. Both marriages were having problems and each of them was contemplating divorce because their ENs were not being met. That's how they ended up talking to each other. But they each said to the other, "I really want you guys to make it." I agree that firm boundaries need to be in place, and this was a very dangerous situation, but I don't think this qualifies as an EA because it never crossed the line to being a substitute for what was missing in the two Marriages. It was a mutual attempt to find it, which ultimately succeeded on both counts.

The friendship has been ruined and is not worth saving. You are just ASKING FOR an affair by allowing it to continue. This is EXACTLY how affairs start so you are lucky that it has not [as far as you know] evolved beyond that point. Your wife and your friend KNEW this was wrong as indicated by the secrecy of their communications. They know they have betrayed both spouses.

On top of that, the other wife will probably NOT want to continue any relationship with your wife for good reason: she cannot be trusted. That is not my idea of a friend. The alternative is to NOT tell her, which is the most cruel, manipulative act of all. She deserves to know the whole truth, though.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by bruised but not battered:
<strong>I appreciate your input, but that answer seems like an oversimplification. While the secrecy is a HUGE problem, the substance of what was said was not destructive to either marriage. Both marriages were having problems and each of them was contemplating divorce because their ENs were not being met. That's how they ended up talking to each other. But they each said to the other, "I really want you guys to make it." I agree that firm boundaries need to be in place, and this was a very dangerous situation, but I don't think this qualifies as an EA because it never crossed the line to being a substitute for what was missing in the two Marriages. It was a mutual attempt to find it, which ultimately succeeded on both counts.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I suspect that the conversations have been massively sanitized for your viewing for fear of eliciting your fury. However, like you said, it really does not matter what you call it, you can call it a baloney sandwich if you want, the point still stands.

This relationship was dangerous to both your marriages and needs to end. Anytime a spouse is getting their needs met OUTSIDE of a marriage, it is a THREAT to that marriage, NOT a help. That a nice spin she put on the communications, but it doesn't erase the grave threat that their secret relationship placed on both marriages.

While I still disagree with you both, you guys have answered my question in one way. No one will ever believe what I believe, that she is not lying, that they did not slip too far down the slope, and that the boundaries can be put back. Consequently, the danger to OM's marriage is too great to risk by a confrontation. We will work it out in our marriage. They will have to deal with it in theirs. And the friendship is over. Thanks.

I have a sneaking suspicion that if you called the other wife, you might get an entirely different story. I hope I am wrong, but my instincts tell me there is much much more going on here than what you have been told.

Perhaps you could prove me wrong and just call her up and tell her how sorry you are about the falling out between she and your wife and get her to talk about it?

I appreciate the suggestion and have thought about it. But I will not compound betrayal with another betrayal. If I am going to act like I am still a friend to her, I will tell her all. If I am not willing to do that, I cannot call her on a fishing expedition, and must have NC.

I think that you should tell her the truth when you call her. She does have a right to know about it. You are right, not telling her is a betrayal.

And since there is nothing wrong with their relationship, as you have told us, then there should be no problem. She will be just as grateful as you are for the boon to her marriage this secret little relationship has afforded her marriage.

But it also gives you an opportunity to bolster the veracity of your wife's story and erase any potential lingering doubts. Who could pass that up?

I always appreciate sarcasm, but in this case, I will stick to my original decision. An equilibrium has been reached where they are not friends anymore, but our children can still be friends, and our close knit group of neighbors is not involved. There is no point in stirring the pot.

If you are right, that my wife is lying, then I will either proceed in blissful ignorance, or she will tell me some day. I have to judge whether to trust her based on her eyes, her voice and her emotions when she talks to me. I believe her, and I would rather err on the side of trust than mistrust.

As for OM's W, while I agree that she deserves to know, it is not my responsibility to tell her. It is his. And it is not my place to interfere in the marriage of others, unless I can be certain it is for the best, especially where there are children involved. I have seen enough break-ups to know that it is always the children who suffer. I will not be the catalyst for a potential divorce, regardless of what she has a right to know. Thanks again for your help. You have really helped me clarify my thinking.

I think that even if your assessment is completely correct- that they did not go too far down the slope- it is still best to end the friendship. Obviously, neither your W or OMW is comfortable with it, so what is the point of the friendship? Working on your M is most important.

Do you feel the need to reestablish the friendship to prove somehow that your W is telling the truth and it didn't go too far?

I think your W can be completely telling the truth and you still need to break the friendship- although it might not technically be an A, boundaries were crossed and people are uncomfortable, and those boundaries cannot be reestablished.

Let go of the friendship and focus on your wife. It sounds like you've decided to do that, so I think your approach is good- as you describe in your above post.

<small>[ February 27, 2003, 10:00 PM: Message edited by: espoir ]</small>

bnbb,
My gut feeling is that you should be praising God that your wife has come to you and told you. I agreee, that if it went further, she will tell you, in her time.

NC is imperative. The frienship is over, period, end of conversation.

Don't look back. Go forward.

Read Marriage Builders and do your best to build a better relationship. Plan A. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I agree, NC is IMPERATIVE. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Love in Christ,
Miss M

<small>[ February 28, 2003, 12:35 AM: Message edited by: Miss M ]</small>

oops!

<small>[ February 28, 2003, 12:30 AM: Message edited by: Miss M ]</small>

BBNB,

I think you can see why your are getting the advice that you are. Better to be safe than sorry and surely male/female "friendships" do lead to affairs. People don't often have affairs with people they are NOT friends with.

At the risk of confusing this situation, let me explore this a bit further. If we take your W's words as the absolute truth, then we would have to conclude that no matter how it may have looked, their conversations may well have saved your marriage and perhaps that of OM and his W.

If we go with that, then one could argue that OM was truely your friend in that he helped you, without your knowledge. The same could be said of your W and OM's W. If that is the case, the surely a close friendship could be warrented.

But, if that is the case, a close friendship is ONLY warrented if EVERYONE is aware of the acts of friendship performed by OM and your W. It seems that neither OM nor your W are really anxious to do that. Suggesting... that they are, to be generous, uncomfortable with the possible outcome.

I realize that your W has told you her story. Have you spoken to OM? If so what does he say? I can understand why he wouldn't show up on your doorstep and say "Guess what old buddy, I saved your marriage for you.", even if everything is on the up and up. But if he knows your W has talked to you about this, then it might be appropriate to broach this subject to him.

This leaves the OM's W. She is clearly suspicious. She has reason to be. She may or may not be seeing an improvement in her marriage. If she is, then perhaps it is time she knew the truth.

So in light of this sort of rambling discussion, my advice is plan for the worst, hope for the best, and play it down the middle.

It seems this friendship is important to you. If it really is then explore further with your W what to do about bringing OM's W into the picture. If either you or your W are really concerned about this, then I guess this is the end of the friendship. Ideally, her H should tell her.

Am I suspicious? sort of. But, I have seen the sort of interaction you describe before and it worked, helped, and it was done in friendship. Have I seen the worst case? All you have to do is read here.

I guess it is a question of you and your W's tolerance to risk and if the reward is worth the risk.

God Bless,

JL

<small>[ February 28, 2003, 01:00 PM: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</small>

JL,
Thanks so much for understanding my predicament. My W said that she called him one time and said that she was going to file for divorce and he would say, "No you are not, you have not tried hard enough yet." My wife was close to harming herself on one occasion and he begged her to let him call me, and when she said no, he told her to stay on the phone with him for hours until she felt better. Then he called later to check on her several times. Yet, neither he nor she ever said anything to me about it. If it had been an affair, it would be easier to know what to do. I have not talked to OM about this. My wife has said that she talked to OM a long time ago when she first wanted to tell me, and at that time, he begged her not to say anything because he thought it would cause his divorce. His W is very high spirited and tends to react strongly to any hint that someone has designs on her husband. Their marriage was in trouble at the time as well, although it appears to have improved. My W does not want me to talk to him, but has said that I must do what I feel like I need to to get past this. OM's W views any intimate emotional conversation between him and a woman to be as much of a betrayal as anything else, and she would view the fact that she was confiding in my W while my W was talking to him to be the ultimate betrayal, even though my W tells me that she never revealed sensitive information that OM's W told her to OM. OM tends to be rather high strung as well, and my W is afraid he would rush right home and tell his W, even if I assured him I would not say anything. I tend to agree with her. He would be too afraid that I would say something. OM's W would have difficulty coming to terms with everything and it would probably end the friendship anyway because she would feel betrayed by my W no matter what. I also agree that we cannot continue the friendship if three of us are aware of the situation but the fourth is not. I cannot sit at her dinner table or go on vacations with them like we used to do, knowing what I know and yet not telling her. I feel trapped and feel like anything I do to save the friendship will likely destroy it, so I have to let it go. But I appreciate your understanding of my dilemma, and your acknowledgement that it is possible that I may be right about what it was and what it wasn't. Thanks.

My confusing situation just popped it's ugly head this weekend (see thread "Is it Mid Life Crisis or it is over"). I read the Emotional Infidelity piece suggested above, and boy did it open my eyes. I believe it is exactly what is happening and I printed it in the hopes that my H will read it and learn from it.

The other couple in my story are also very good friends. We play bridge every Saturday night, often do things together. As a matter of fact, we were together this weekend when H let me know that he "just doesn't love me anymore". From this point on there will be NC on my part, but my concern is that my H has to work with OW. It's not an option for my husband to quit, it's not an option for her to quit. It just has to be. Short of packing up and moving to another city, there is not a NC option for H & OW.

I believe that the Emotional Infidelity article above gives valuable insight as to why I am in the situation that I am in. H has been having intimate conversations with OW and has shared things with her that he no longer wishes to share with me.

Bruised,
Read these 2 statements you've made:

For about a year, my WW and OM had secret telephone conversations, often daily,in which they discussed both marriages. They exchanged advice about how to deal with spouses (me), and went as far as to say "I wish our marriages could be like this," ... My W and OM's W were very good friends. She said that sometimes OM's W would confide to her that OM suddenly seemed to understand her, and he knew just what to say, and they ended up having great sex that night.

even though my W tells me that she never revealed sensitive information that OM's W told her to OM.

Sounds to me like she was relating sensitive stuff.

When 2 married people secretly talk for over a year...it isn't innocent.

If you told the OM's W, you aren't responsible for any ensuing break-up, the OM's behavior that is unacceptable to his wife is responsible. You aren't passing on hearsay, you know this took place.

You say the friendship between the 2 couples is solid. It isn't. You had no inkling this was going on...I too suspect you are hearing the tip of the iceberg.

It's the secrecy that is the giveaway that this is at very least an emotional affair.