I wanted to finish the post I had started yesterday.
Ladysing58 I am very sorry about your Brother and of course his wife.

I've written a very long letter to my H. Trying to find the courage and the right time to deliver it. I did tell him a couple days ago that I have something for him as soon as he can find some quiet time, and of course when he is not drinking.He has not mentioned it which I find strange. Curiosity would be killing me!

I intend to add to the letter my thoughts and evidence to his A, my reasons for believing he has. If he continues to deny (which he will probably do)then I'm not sure what my next step will be.
Next week we are scheduled for a trip (vacation). Has been planned for some time...If we were not taking another couple along I would probably cancel, but I can't. I need a vacation anyway.

Guess what though, the OW will be in the same vacation town at the SAME time as us! Not intentionally I don't think. I set the time, and he didn't know for sure our dates. Glad she will be across town.

Anyway, I hope to give him the letter and have the talk with him before we go. If not, then asap.
Will let you all know what happens..
Danneill

Well I gave him the letter yesterday. Told him to go someone place alone where he could read it and think.
I told him I wanted it back later so it did not fall into others or the kids hands.
When he returned, he totally avoided the subject. I asked for it back, he refused, said it is safe.
He said I could not have it back because he wanted to read it again "to make sure I read it right" sarcastically.

I'm sure he was drinking so I did not press.
He has not talked about it and doesn't seem like he intends to.

Many things in this letter include some big issues in his life. Things that he denys.
We'll see if he ever comes clean about the A.
I highly doubt it.
You be proud to hear that I did state my boundaries in the letter. I'm sure that pissed him off.
I see suspected OW called him yesterday on his cell. Before I gave him the letter.
Danneill

Well it has been a couple days since I gave my H the letter I wrote him.
This letter contained many reasons for the terrible condition our marriage
is in along with how I feel about his drinking and what damage it has done.

I also included my boundaries that I feel are neccesary. And I included my
reasons, and the facts that that point to him having an A. I didn't include all of my evidence
but quite a bit of it, especially the most incriminating things.

I did make sure I included how much I love him and want this marriage to work,
I am willing to make changes if he is and I do not want a divorce.
It was a long letter and I tried not to attack his character.

So why has he not acknowledged it? He has not said a word!. He has not
made an attempt to speak with me about it. He refused to give it back, even though
I told him when I gave it to him that I wanted it back so the kids
would get ahold of it. He has hidden it. I have looked but he has hidden it
good.

You would think he would have made his denials by now, or at least said something. There
were some pretty incriminating statements in it. What is he thinking?

Does anyone out there have any idea why a letter of this magnitude
could be ignored by him? Would that confirm his guilt? Wouldn't you think that
if he is really innocent he would striked back by now?

Need advice here. Don't know what my next step should be. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
Danneill

Danneill,
I am so sorry. I can't imagine how your H can read your letter and think that it is acceptable to flat out ignore it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

You say that you set some boundaries in the letter, are you observing those?

Based on the fact that the OW called him right before he read your letter, I would say that his response is out of guilt. He knows that you know what is going on and he believes that if he ignores you, he can continue the marriage and the affair.

Do you really think that the vacation thing is a coincidence? I find it hard to believe that this was not also planned.

I am not qualified to give you counsel on this issue, but I do think that it is very obvious that an affair is happening. I would suggest that you pick up the phone and call the Harleys for some professional help here.

I just don't know what your next step should be, I would want to shake the stuffing out of him! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> I think that he is secure in your relationship and believes that you will not do anything further and that his affair and marriage can continue. You cannot let this go on and should not have to be subjected to this total disregard for your feelings.

Do you have a copy of the letter? I really think that you will have to get professional help at this point, I am baffled as to what your action should be.

Sorry I could not be of more help, just a listening ear at this point. Ladysing

Thanks Ladysing...
I'll have to be quick, so please forgive the typos..
As I went out the door to feed the critters this a.m., (which I do every morning so he can have access to the "recorded" telephone..) he made a comment about something, don't remember what,,
and it esculated to my letter.

We spent the last hour aurguing, some calm talk, some not...
He said my letter made him feel about 1 inch high, that I am called him a worthless drunk and a cheater...
I tried not to attack his character in the letter, just point out the facts...
As far as the A, he got really pissed, denied, denied, denied, says I'm crazy, wants to see the evidence, get copy's of the test results, and set up a lie detecter test..ect...

He gets really violent about that part of the letter.
So who knows, maybe the man really is innocent.

We did agree to start things over, if that will do any good. He doesn't want a divorce, wants to make it work.
I'm going back to school, (college)...I dropped this semester when I could not focus at all on my studies.

So anyway, I have lots of bookwork to do today. Will probably not get a chance to discuss things with him further today.

Thanks again for the advice you have given, and any yet to come.

One more thing, if I decide to believe his innocence, would I be better off destoying my records? my book that I have kept? If I believe him, I need to move on and am afraid that it will just rekindle it every time I look at it.

Danneill

Considering all the circumstancial evidence, I would have a hard time letting go of this (i.e. believing there was no A). Maybe there was no sex, but the inappropriate emotional attachment seems to be there. The potential for this "Did he cheat on me?" thinking to eat away at my sanity would require H to either radically change or come clean.

Either way you go, No Contact with dead friend's wife would be a requirement for me. What's more important? Marriage/trust or this possibly inappropriate friendship? At the very least, his friendship with this woman has caused a lot of objective problems in the environment besides the anguish it has caused you.

FWIW, there are so many instances of people who have denied, denied, denied, you're crazy and guess what? Affair.

If he is having an A, then as long as the consequences of not telling are less than the consequences of telling, he won't tell. That means you may need to increase the conseuqneces of not telling and decrease the consequences of admitting A. If he believes that admitting A = end of marriage, he will likely never tell.

Anyway good luck. It looks like your H is hurting a lot also (or maybe just being really manipulative, but let's hope not) and I hope you are able to empathize with his feelings. Hope you find a good marriage counselor. There's a lot of good info on this site. The safer you make it for him, the more he will open up (or take advantage - dependign on his mind-set)

<small>[ March 20, 2003, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: est ]</small>

Danielle,

Think back to times when you haven't trusted him and you accused him of something that later proved to be untrue. How did he defend himself? With sadness that you wouldn't trust him, or with righteous indignation, rage, or anger?

Many people who react with anger tend to be defensive about something - some guilt related to the accusation itself or a similar life experience. Where he won't deal with your feelings of abandonment, hides phone bills and similar "community household" expenses, he's trying to intimidate you into trusting you, which for me, would arouse more distrust. But I'm not you.

Go with what is consistent for him in situations where he was telling the truth, and where there was hard core evidence proving him to be untrustworthy. The phone bill alone would provide me with sufficient evidence to say "You ARE spending too much time with this woman. You're with her more than you are with me. You CALL her more and longer than you talk to me. I have reason to be suspicious so if you care for me and want to protect my feelings, please reconsider your priorities. Your anger only tells me that you have something to hide - if there were no merit to my feelings, and you truly had no inappropriate feelings for her, where I am your wife, you would take action right now to repair the rift between us and take responsibility for your part."

Thanks for the wonderful advice folks.
We did talk more about a few of the things in my letter yesterday. Can't say that we made any progress though. He still has not given it back.
I do have a copy, I just didn't want it to fall into the wrong hands. Or him let anyone read it.
He may not do that because there are so many things in it about him.

His mother was here yesterday. Before she arrived he had agreed to tell her that I am not out of my "F******" mind, that I had several reasons for believing something inappropiate was going on. I felt that he owed me that after what he had told her before about my crazy accusations. The three of us are very close and I was very uncomfortable
knowing he told her.
Well when I prodded him about having something to tell his mom he became instantly pissed off and said he never wanted to hear anything about my stupid accusations again. It's all Bullcrap, and he never did anything wrong. Blah blah blah...

so,
I told his mom exactly why (not everything) I had reasons to believe. He left and we talked about it for a short time. Of course she believes him to be innocent also.

Last night I suggested we get some professional help to work through our problems. He now has decided that we don't need any help, that there is nothing seriously wrong and that we can handle
things on our own.
In other words, If I will just shut up and forget about everything, all will be fine. If I will just continue to live as I have been living, and let him live as he has been living, then all will be fine. He refuses to accept any responsibility or make any changes.

And then he told me that I must be having a hard time because of all the changes going on in my life right now., going to be a grandmother, discontinued my business, went back to college, ect..in other words, mid life crisis..Thats rediculous, had a complete hysterectomy at the age of 28. Been on ERT for years. Nothing different now.

How can he say these things?, especially after I poured my heart out in this letter? I absolutly do not understand this man.

If anyone would like to read the letter I would be happy to send them a copy..Maybe I am the one that is wrong. Maybe I did attack him in the letter. But it is all the truth, through my eyes, but obviously not his.

The new cell phone bill should come today. Can't wait for the mailman.
Danneill

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Why do you think most married copules end, or at least, slow down their friendships with recently widowed friends? It's very common.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I did not realize this. At our age (40's) we are just now starting to lose spouses of our married friends. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Many people who react with anger tend to be defensive about something - some guilt related to the accusation itself or a similar life experience. Where he won't deal with your feelings of abandonment, hides phone bills and similar "community household" expenses, he's trying to intimidate you into trusting you, which for me, would arouse more distrust. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He once accused me of an affair in our own home, while he was here and other company...It was rediculous. And I was so angryyyyy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> , I could not believe what I was hearing. How dare he make that accusation. I was 100% completely innocent! and disgusted by the thought of it.
So with my own experience I can't make a judgement on that. I'm sure everyone reacts differently.

I have tried to think of an instance like you reccomended, but can't. I have never had a reason to distrust or not believe him before.

Thanks for the great input though. I'm sure in some cases that is very true.
Danneill

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Why do you think most married copules end, or at least, slow down their friendships with recently widowed friends? It's very common.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I did not realize this. At our age (40's) we are just now starting to lose spouses of our married friends. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Many people who react with anger tend to be defensive about something - some guilt related to the accusation itself or a similar life experience. Where he won't deal with your feelings of abandonment, hides phone bills and similar "community household" expenses, he's trying to intimidate you into trusting you, which for me, would arouse more distrust. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He once accused me of an affair in our own home, while he was here and other company...It was rediculous. And I was so angryyyyy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> , I could not believe what I was hearing. How dare he make that accusation. I was 100% completely innocent! and disgusted by the thought of it.
So with my own experience I can't make a judgement on that. I'm sure everyone reacts differently.

I have tried to think of an instance like you reccomended, but can't. I have never had a reason to distrust or not believe him before.

Thanks for the great input though. I'm sure in some cases that is very true.
Danneill

Hi All,
A lot has happened these past couple weeks. H still denies A of course and I don't dare speak of it. He gets so down right nasty about it, it's not worth it.

We went on our vacation. Had a good time. Actually got along good, even held hands (that was a first) while walking around seeing the sights.

OW was in same town, same time. She called his cell couple times, came to our hotel looking for us, but no luck on her part. I had the cell in my purse, ignored her calls, and lucky we were not there when she was.

He hasn't been over to her place that I know of. She still calls him about every other day that I do know of.

The latest, we continue to fight since we returned home. Ugly fights about everything, we can't have a conversation about anything. He treats my daughter like crap even though she is doing everything "right" now.
Anyway, I can't stand to live like this any longer. I caught him in another lie or two.

H swears he has not told OW about my accusations. Remember, we are friends. But when I mentioned the possibility of myself going someplace with OW
he had a fit. Said I must really be nuts if now I want to associate with her. Well, my thoughts are if they are innocent, then yes I should be nice, maybe even apologize to her for thinking such horrid thought. After all the woman did just lose her H 3 months ago. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

H says I am just wanted to get info from her and any tidbits she may have. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Hmmmmm
What tidbits? How can there be any if you are innocent? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Then, I said well maybe I will apologize to her for my awful thoughts, H says "Yes maybe you should!" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Hmmmmmm Why should I apologize to her if she doesn't know???? He swears he didn't tell her. Open mouth, insert foot! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
He was still trying to squirm out of that one the next day. He said he was talking about someone else. Yeh yeh right..

Anyway, guess I am just rambling.

After our latest "big blow up" I took my wedding rings off. I am tired of fighting, crying, wondering ect... I started making ads for things I will sell,
he saw my ads, took me serious that my rings are off for the first time in 18 years.

Now he says, he took the first step and was nice talking to my D, and now he says we can make changes....
WHATTTTTTTT???????????
Heh, dumb*** It's too freaking late <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Danneill

Daneill,

Are you in Plan A? Do you want to save your marriage? Because the way you are going about this almost ensures the end of your marriage. Fighting with him, making unsubstantiated accusations, taking off your wedding rings does nothing but PUSH him towards the OW and AWAY from you. It gives him JUSTIFICATION to continue the affair. I have no doubt that he is having an affair. I think you are right about that, but all the things you are doing only encourages that relationship.

I would start off by ending the accusations. STOP. Keep looking for evidence, but don't present anything until you have solid proof. I would explain to him how disturbing [and inappropriate] it is to you for him to have contact with a single woman. Ask him to end the relationship - AS A COURTESY TO YOU. At the very least, get him to agree to not see her alone and take you along on these visits.

Secondly, I would stop fighting with him and try to start meeting his needs. Every time you fight with him, you make yourself look less attractive and her MORE attractive. Don't get into it with him. Start thinking about what you can do for HIM and what needs you can meet. Start a program of attraction.

It seems to me that one of his needs is ADMIRATION because he likes being "needed" by the damsel in distress. He likes protecting her. Is that the need that she is fulfilling? What can you do to fulfill that need and attract him away from her?

If you start being nice to him and try to meet his meets, he will be more attracted to you and less inclined to demonize you. You will give him no more justification to carry on an affair.

Lastly, do you have the books, Surviving an Affair and His Needs, Her Needs? They are excellent books that would help alot. And can you get into counseling with the Harleys? It would be well worth the money.

<small>[ April 06, 2003, 05:42 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

Hi Melodylane

My H has refused to respect my boundaries. He's like a wrecking ball every time he comes around me. There is no escaping his mean mouth. I asked for NC with OW, he refused, said there is nothing going on, he "never touched that woman". I finally told myself I have to believe him because it was tearing me apart and only making things worse. An A would only just add to the list of problems in our M.

These are the boundaries I felt I needed to set. This is what I put in the letter to him. He completely ignores them.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
These are my boundaries:

I will no longer tolerate lies. You have told me numerous ones, whether they are meant to cover up your drinking or whatever it is that you cover with them, I will no longer tolerate them. Lies and deceit do not belong in a marriage.

I will no longer tolerate disloyalty and disrespect, which means, MY feelings and our marital problems are NO ONE ELSE’S BUSINESS! This also includes my children’s lives. What they do, or have done is NO ONE else’s business. If you feel you need to talk about our marriage with your friends or maybe with your mother, then fine, but ONLY IF you are respectful of my own and my children’s privacy. I have always given you the same consideration and will continue to do so.

I will no longer tolerate your verbal and emotional abuse. I will no longer argue with you and use verbal abuse towards you, And I will no longer allow you to use the same conduct towards me and my children.

I will no longer tolerate you blaming me for other people’s actions.
I will no longer tolerate you accusing me of actions I am not guilty of, like giving people money or paying their bills or going behind your back to accommodate others.

If you are drunk, in a foul mood or pissed off about something, DO NOT COME HOME! You need to make arrangements with your mom or one of your friends to stay the night there. Since you are usually with Mike, I’m sure he has a couch for you to borrow. I will no longer tolerate an aggressive drunk. You get mean when you drink.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It was a waste of time writing these. The minute we returned home everything was wrong again and back to the usual. The only way I could avoid his wrath is to physically leave the house.

My plan A really started in Jan. There were the accusations thrown in about the A because that is when I became suspicious. I just don't know how I can continue plan A when he will not even admit that he is part of the problem. If no A exists or has happened then all of these other issues move to the top of the list. He has taken me for granted for so long that I feel I have got to take a stand or all of my feelings for him will be gone. There is too much anger and bitterness on both sides. I guess he having an A would have explained part of it or at least given our M something to "treat".

If I was dealing with a "normal" man or a normal marriage I can see where plan A can work. But nothing is normal around here anymore. Our occupations prevent what would be considered a normal life.

Taking my rings off seemed to be the only way to get him to realize that I am serious, I will tolerate no more. If there is no A as he claims it won't push him to her. I guess maybe that's the chance I will have to take to get him to open his eyes and see what's really happening here. At least then maybe I would find out the truth.
Then I feel like I can go back to plan A or on to B if he continues this behavior.

He is also a drinker. 6 out of 7 days some weeks. Spends all of his spare time with his buddies sloshing a few down. His wife and family has never been his priority. Always his job and his friends and social life. These are a couple of the issues I am trying to confront at this time also. I could be doing a perfect plan A, but once he comes home with a few beers in him it is impossible for me. The beer can takes over his brain.
Then everyone is an A**hole, taking advantage of him, putting the screws to him, doing everything wrong, talking to the wrong people, not working hard enough ect ect ect. Not even his our daughter can do right in his eyes. Plan A is extremely difficult in this enviroment.
Kids are back,
thankyou
Danneill

Danneill,

What have you done in regards to Plan A? All I see here is a litany of angry demands and disrespectful judgements, which are definite lovebusters. Plan A is not about making demands of a fogged out WS and setting boundaries that will never be respected. It is not about fighting and making accusations. Here is a paragraph from one of Harley's articles:

"So, then, what is plan A and plan B?

Plan A is for the betrayed spouse to negotiate with the wayward spouse to totally separate from the lover without angry outbursts, disrespect, and demands. These three Love Busters not only ruin any effort to reach a negotiated settlement, but they also make the betrayed spouse much less attractive to the wayward spouse. Instead of encouraging total separation from the lover, the anger, disrespect and demands of the betrayed spouse make the lover appear to be the only one who truly cares about the wayward spouse. They literally throw the wayward spouse into the arms of the lover."

Please read the rest of the article here:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html

Let me ask you something, because maybe I am missing the point. Do you WANT to be married to him or have you given up on the marriage? Is he an alcoholic?

Hi All,
I can't believe its been almost a year since I have posted. I have checked in reguarly to see how life is going for several members. It warms my heart to see all the help and caring you people show.

To fill in the past several months.....suspected OW moved away last August. She has returned to this area a couple times. No contact with my H as far as I could tell.

She still calls him every few weeks or so. One time the recorder did catch her saying to him, "I know it's risky calling but..."

I think God just does not want me to know the truth. Twice, H has spoke to OW for 30? minutes while I was outside, or in the shower. Both times, I turned the recorder on and both times it decided not to work. Nothing, did not even start recording. It has worked for 300 other calls, but not those 2. I absolutely could not believe it.

I still do not know if an A did happen. H will not go to MC. H will not read any books. H will not do emotional needs questions. I printed him a copy of Shirley Glass's list "Just friends?". He either hid it for later proof that I am crazy or he threw it away. H still denies A. I am not allowed to bring the subject up, because IT DID NOT HAPPEN.

I did eventually find the letter that I wrote him. When he found that it was gone, he went totally crazy. He was like a rabid dog. He was the nastiest I have ever seen him. My D and I locked ourselves in a room. I wanted to send him to jail so bad that night, but I was afraid to do it. He said that "If I ever get into anything personal of his again (his toolbox in the barn is where he hid the letter), that it will be the last thing I do in my life".
Yes he was drunk, although he swore he did not have any thing to drink...He later swore he did not say that...the recorder is never in the right place at the right time. You see, no one will believe how ugly he gets. But I will say, he has never laid a hand on me. Its all verbal.

He was obsessed with getting that letter back. He wanted to print it in the paper, make copies to hand out to all. He wanted to "prove" that I was nuts and for everyone to see how bad I think of him...

Life has gone on. My granddaughter is beautiful. My D is still living with the jerk, so I am not allowed to help her finantially in any way. She cannot survive on minimum wage. H still rants and rages about the jerk my D lives with. Its terrible. I speak nothing about him because H will hear it as in his defense, Oh My Gosh, do I get put thru hell for that.

I cannot believe that I am still here. Its unbeliebable the situation that some women lock themselves into and its next to impossible to repair a marriage by yourself. H
simply wants to live his life as he sees fit. Never calls when late. Comes and goes as he pleases. New years Eve day he did call me 4 times. We had plans to go somewhere, but he had left early in the day. Each time he called he said he would be home in 1/2 hour. 6 hours later he still was not home so I left. I drove to town, his truck was behind the local pub. The only vehicle in the lot. The pub door was locked.
He later said that he was inside with his buds.

Well I guess I am rambling.....

Just wanted to send you all my best wishes...guess I am just lonely as usual. H is out snowmobiling.
Danneill

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />