Well, today was sort of a turning point for things for me as far as my approach with my W's affair.

She has been out of the house for almost 4 months now, and we're 4 months past D-Day. For those who have been reading my posts, you know I started out horribly after finding out, but, other than a few minor stumbles, I've been doing my best to do a successful Plan A with my wife actively seeing OM and living separately from me.

Lately, contact between us has been irregular. I've been working with my coach, Cerri, who has been outstanding at giving me advice. I have not gone wrong following her suggestions at all. Anything that hasn't gone my way I can't blame on her, or even myself, but rather the fact that my W just doesn't want an R with me right now.

Anyway, after a few good visits which took place weekly the first 2 weeks of February, my wife has gone very dark on me again. She has stopped returning my email messages, and our regular Thursday calls or visits seem to have stopped. No real reason, I didn't do a backslide or anything, she just stopped showing interest in me again after a spurt of good friendly contact.

So, today I checked her email account for the first time in many months. C recommended this as we could then at least know what the temperature of the A was. And, I was sad to see, that my W is indeed still very much seeing OM, spending time with him, exchaging e-mails and signing off with "I Love You"s, calling each other "honey", all that stuff. Very hard for me to read, but now at least I know. 4 months in, the A is strong and shows no sign of ending.

So, I am gearing up for Plan B. I do feel that Plan A is being done correctly, and I am learning a lot. I am still feeling depressed at the entire situation of course, and today makes things no easier, but I also know I am doing all that I can. Personally, I don't feel that Plan B will help me, but I guess everyone going there feels that way. I just figure my W will be determined as ever to be on her own anyway. After a Plan B letter, coming back to me seems like she would have to admit defeat. In her eyes, as long as she never comes back to me, she never had an A, she never did anything wrong. She was just leaving one relationship and moving on to the next.

I also worry about Plan B's effectiveness due to the fact we are practically there already. We don't live together or see each other, she is financially independent, and she basically ignores most of my attempts to talk anyway. So will Plan B really even have an effect on her? I'm not sure.

Leading up to Plan B day, whenever I decide that will be, I think I will continue to send even more regular upbeat, friendly emails to her, staying in contact as best I can, even if it's one-sided, so perhaps when I DO disappear, she'll feel a bit of a void there.

On the flip side, I just scheduled a trip with the guys down to Tampa, Florida next week for a lonnng weekend. Getting my [censored] out of this cold weather, and taking a mental break from all my problems. I think that's what I need.

Anyway, a pretty upsetting day, not only because I have confirmed the A is still happening, but because it seems that my Plan A efforts, as good as I feel they have been, haven't changed anything. W still ignores me.

Anyone have any thoughts or opinions? I'd love to hear from my MB peers!

ALS

ALS:

I hope J.R. sees this post. He's been in plan B for a LONG time now. I wonder how he's doing? I haven't seen him post since January, though I've seen him on from time to time.

He and his W have no kids either. The riskiest sitch to be in when going to plan B. The M could just be replaced by the A, which, as you said, the WS rationalizes as not being an A at that point.

A very tough sitch to be in. I don't know what I would do.

♥
-Qfwfq

<small>[ February 27, 2003, 07:11 PM: Message edited by: Qfwfq ]</small>

Well I am open to all opinions and options here. There is no doubt in my mind that Plan B will be hard, but on the other hand, it's also very hard to have a W whose contact is very unpredictable.

The hardest part is that for a while, things go well and I see a lot of her. We do great chatting and enjoy each others' company. Then for no reason, she disappears for a couple weeks. I guess one theory here could be that she comes around for some unmet needs from OM. If I can meet those 100% of the time, and OM starts to NOT meet those needs more and more, there may be hope. What I may be seeing right now is just a time that OM is meeting all her needs again.

So I will try and be as patient as possible. Cerri will guide me through this and I'm sure help me decide if and when Plan B is appropriate. I have started on my letter, just so I can make it as perfect as can be should it need to be sent. I need to find the best way to express to my wife how much I still love her, and that if she wants to come home, it won't be her "losing" or admitting she was wrong. I feel the biggest risk with a Plan B is that it can feel like an ultimatum, and the stubborn spouse in the affair may not want to give up, even when the A ends.

Plus, I agree, with no kids or other attachments, it could very well spell disaster for us. A lot of people go from Plan A right to Dv, but Cerri tells me no way, Plan B is the next necessary step. I will do whatever she thinks is right.

For now, I'm hanging on. At this point, if her ignorance of me continues, it will feel like a Plan B anyway. It's not like I'm not trying. I have been writing her an email once or twice a week. I don't call her, never have, she feels threatened by that. But e-mail usually leads to meeting, or she usually calls or comes over every Thursday (she's now skipped the last 2 Thursdays), and she won't even reply to e-mail.

It might soon me a wife-imposed Plan B on me! And before I even got to send the letter! And I don't want to miss that chance, at least, to write her one last time and do my best to express my love for her and my hope for us.

Anyone else? JR?

ALS

ALS - I'm sorry that things haven't worked out the way you want them to up til now. It seems you have done the best you could and you should take comfort in that. If and when you decide to go to Plan B you will know that you have done your best, but your WW didn't respond. Sometimes you have to do something different in order to get different results.

I've been in Plan B for 2 months now. At first it was a relief to be separated from a WH who was openly pining for OW. Then I went back and forth btwn missing him, being scared, and still being relieved from the stress of living with someone who didn't want to be with me. Now I'm back to relief, and a sense of empowerment that I can make it w/o him. I was surprised also at the sense of peace that has come to me. I still love and sometimes miss my WH, but it's life-affirming to know that I'll be OK if he chooses not to come back.

I guess what I'm saying is that if you go to Plan B you may find yourself in a better place than you're in now. Plan A is hard, especially since you've gotten no positive response from your WW. If you separate her from your everyday thoughts and stop wondering what she's doing all the time, you'll have a lot more energy to live YOUR life.

Best wishes.
Lablady

Halllo?? I heard my name called. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Yes, plan B is risky with no kids, but there comes a point where it's also risky to put your life on hold forever for someone who may never return your feelings. But all of us have a different definition of what's "enough". Some folks like Qfwfq, SC and myself have been at it for quite some time in one way or another - at some point in either Plan A, B, etc.

For me, Plan B has been very good, but it took some time. At first it was about "hanging on" as long as I could - "holding pattern" according to SH. But time heals all wounds and now I'm finding much peace in letting go completely. After nearly 9 months of Plan A and 9 months of Plan B - I feel strong, confident and where I need to be emotionally... we all get there - the path that we pick is what counts for a lot, I believe.

My last correspondence with my WW for example was me checking up on what her plans were - something SH had suggested quite a while ago, and I re-executed that plan. Result? She's still without a plan - "starting" to figure herself out. After 18 months and just starting - ?! - a rather bad sign, if you ask me! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

And in hearing that, I made a few points to her - spoke my mind in an honest way - if a LB, doesn't bother me in the least anymore - says something, don't it?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Some examples of where she's at:

WW: [IC/MC] has encouraged me to share things
with you. But I will admit that I have been very reluctant to contact you unless absolutely necessary as I was trying to respect your wishes.

JR: Yes, I realize that. I hope it was clear, though, that I was willing to talk - so long as there was no OM in the picture, and you were willing to address issues collaboratively. I think I repeated that a few different times, in different forms. It wasn't about some game from some book - it was about simple self-respect - and still is.

WW: I'm not sure what you mean by this. In what way do my decisions define me? How do you interpret my behaviour? This statement makes me wonder if you think that I've not been making an effort. I have been working, and working very hard. But I'm not following your recipie for recovery. I'm following my own.

JR: Not to say you haven't been working hard - what I mean is more subtle. I mean your beliefs and views dictate to me how I naturally perceive you - if you aren't a believer in protecting me (yourself), then you aren't exactly the person I once knew. Because the person I remember marrying seemed to have a different attitude - about a lot of things. We seemed to share a lot of common values. And it's okay to change that attitude - and say, "this is perfectly good, normal, valid, etc." - but I've come to see that for what it is. Would I marry such a person today? Obviously not.

....

JR: Acceptance is a long road, but 18 months is a long time. I feel like I followed the best possible path I could - that's all I can look at and evaluate - did I do what I could? did I grow as much as I could? did I act with grace, compassion and pay my penance? do I feel ready to move on to a new relationship? I'm not 100% certain the picture is complete yet, but it's getting there daily, slowly.

WW: I do know that I have not moved beyond you

JR: There's a great deal of irony, and even unfortunate in some ways - seems like something's out of order here!

WW: I would agree! Please keep in mind that I've never claimed that I don't love you anymore.

JR: Right... For me personally, it seems the best course might have been: Attempt to deal with things, fail, lose your love, divorce, deal with your issues alone for enough time, then start a new relationship with a clear heart. It seems to me at least that there were a lot of opportunities to do this. Sad, really.

So maybe this gives an idea of how things have shifted... she's certainly not anywhere near "healthy" - and some may debate whether I should be this... blunt (?) with her - but frankly, I feel good about it, so I'll do it.

I've been rather busy with work, skiing and enjoying myself, really. Maybe I'm ready to make more moves for myself soon... I'll keep you posted.

... sorry, "me, me, me"... but take from it any lessons you can... Plan B isn't to save your M necessarily - more to save your sanity!! If you save your M in the process, you can feel you took the best possible path, standing tall and proud, not compromising your self-esteem any more - ever again.

Lablady,

Thanks for responding. It sounds like Plan B is a lot like Plan A, just a different type of rollercoaster. Most folks I have seen who use it go through what you are as well. But in the end, they have that sense of peace and contentment. I think a lot of it has to do with being able to look back at your Plan A and Plan B and realize that you, in the face of all the horrible things your spouse did to you, were strong enough to attempt to hold your marriage together despite that. And you gave it your all. That's what the plans are really about, most of all, is the fact that you are stronger and better and truly did not give up on your marriage despite all that's happened.

So, I agree with you that I do look forward to having that feeling of peace if I have to go to Plan B. I've been told that staying in Plan A as long as I have love left in the LBnk for W is important, and I hope to be able to do this for the recommended 6 months if possible, before Plan B. I want my W to remember me as a person who loved her, and cared for her so much that he was willing do to what it takes to save the marriage. If it comes time for Plan B, I hope to write a very loving, caring letter to convey my feelings as best as I can.

JR,

Wow, you found us! Cool!

9 months of each plan is a very long time, you should be very proud of your patience and dedication. I have my rough days but hope that I am able to stay as stong with my plans as you. I can understand the frustration of putting your life on hold for so long. I've been in this holding pattern for only 4 months and it feels like it's been an eternity. D-Day seems so far off for me but it wasn't even that long ago.

So, why did SH recommend your Plans last for as long as they have? Was it due to the no kids thing? Did he feel that you needed to stay connected with W as long as you could due to that factor?

I can relate a lot to what you are gong through, JR. So is your W still with OM then? Mine is as well, as you have seen. I think it's hard to hear them tell you they are "figuring themselves out" when they have an OM in the picture. If they are working on themselves, why do they need another man around during that process? Why not us? Sometimes I think "time to myself" or "I need to work on me" is a justification for getting away to be with OM. I heard those statements a lot when she left and I know that all along she was just waiting to get more time with OM.

It's interesting what you say about values as well. When we marry someone, we assume their values dictate they are incapable of an A. Sure, some marriages DO fail regardless, and dissolve, but we would not marry someone we feel is capable of sneaking around on us and having an A while we are still married. For example, had my W told me she was unhappy and started a Dv process or left me WITHOUT am OM in the picture, I would feel a lot differently about this. But their ability to have an A is sort of a shock to our systems as far as their values go. It hurts to realize the person we married is capable of such betrayal. But I do feel it's something that can be avoided again, if handled correctly this time.

You seem to have the point down about Plan B. After Plan A is over you can't focus on W anymore because you are in NC. The only person you have to deal with is yourself. For sure. The conversation you had with your W is very interesting. I think a lot of us feel that way. We feel there should be a natural progression if a marriage is to end. And an A just doesn't seem fair. Glad to hear you are enjoying yourself, though, JR. If it comes to Plan B for me, I hope to get to the place you are. I can see you have it together.

ALS

One thing that JR said has been a mantra for me and the times I've said it here I've been perceived as either a smarta$$ or a simpleton. I think it's especially important for you considering that you don't believe PB will work for you. JR is right on the money when he says save yourself to save your marriage. Without the first, the second is, in my view, impossible. And if you don't succeed at the second one, you're still better off.

<small>[ February 28, 2003, 07:55 AM: Message edited by: whippit ]</small>

I guess the bottom line is that this whole ordeal is just one of those things that takes time, and you don't know how long it will take to get over it, really.

It's like the passing of a loved one, for example...You can't just convince yourself to "get over it" and make yourself feel better. In time you just do. And this may be one of those things that takes time, but who knows how long. But I don't necessarily believe that simply working on myself or living well can make me feel better, either. I've been doing as much for myself as I can, learning a lot, recreational things, but those moments of despair and sadness are still there.

I think a lot of the school of thought here is that if you are busy working on yourself, having fun, etc, you will just instantly forget your troubles with your marriage and feel better. But that's not always the case. Some of us can still do all that but still find plenty of time to also be depressed about the situation we're in. I guess I'm talented that way. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Believe me, if I could make the feelings go away, I would, and I'm considering anti-D's just for that reason, but I do often wonder how long ti will take for this to all stop hurting so much. I realize it's only been 4 months so, perhaps, with time, the sting will lessen until it's gone. I guess I just assumed it would gradually get better until I was able to detach from the situation. And some days I am able to detach and be more patient than others. Some days are still very hard, almost as hard as the days after D-Day. But I guess that's why they call it the "rollercoaster".

ALS

Hi ALS,

ALS: So, why did SH recommend your Plans last for as long as they have? Was it due to the no kids thing? Did he feel that you needed to stay connected with W as long as you could due to that factor?

JR: Actually I haven't talked with SH for quite some time now - maybe 6 months. Maybe I'm just a very stubborn guy! I've really, really, really felt strongly that WW should take on the responsibility for doing the Dv work - but I do have a plan to move to a point where I can do it myself - while still putting onus on her.

ALS: So is your W still with OM then?

JR: I don't think so - all evidence says "no". But I think she's still engaged in both fantasy and misconceptions about what "real life" is all about. For me, that's nearly as bad as the A itself - poses a great deal of risk for me, going forward with her. I also think her A was ended more or less by OM - he got sick of her indecision. So she never was forced to live with him and all the reality of a real relationship.

ALS: It hurts to realize the person we married is capable of such betrayal. But I do feel it's something that can be avoided again, if handled correctly this time.

JR: Right, *I* feel like it should be *easy* to avoid - but if the way she views the world of relationships is inconsistent with what I *know* is going to work - and she isn't willing to look at things in a different way - and she thinks its "okay" to be selfish - then I've got some "easier" decisions to make.

ALS: We feel there should be a natural progression if a marriage is to end.

JR: Absolutely! My next step in dealing with WW will be to out-and-out ask her, "WW, did I do everything I could to save our M? (Besides giving you another few years to figure things out?)" Yes means, "okay, I *can* accept that I've taken the best path I could have and I can do no more". No means, "So what's your plan? Do you want me to do something (besides sit and wait for years)?" No answer means "yes" by default - unwilling to admit "yes". I feel this approach is what I need for a next step in my plans, to let me file.

You sound to be doing pretty good, actually! (Really! I think of me at 4 months and it was very, very tough.) Nothing like finding support and a healthy path through this messy situation. I know for me, knowing I did everything I could makes a *HUGE* difference!

P.S., definitely consider anti-D's... for example, a low-dose of Prozac may provide just enough "balance" to help - for me, I wish I'd started much, much earlier. I'm so much more productive now - combination of meds + pure acceptance.

<small>[ February 28, 2003, 09:49 AM: Message edited by: J.R. ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ALostSoul:
<strong>Personally, I don't feel that Plan B will help me, but I guess everyone going there feels that way.

I also worry about Plan B's effectiveness due to the fact we are practically there already. We don't live together or see each other, she is financially independent, and she basically ignores most of my attempts to talk anyway. So will Plan B really even have an effect on her? I'm not sure.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">For what it's worth, here's a way I suggest you look at Plan B.

Your wife made the decision to have the affair and to "separate" from you. She was in control and you had NO control. In so many words, Plan B says it's now YOUR decision to STAY separated. You take control. Do not underestimate the power of this symbolism.

As for its affect on her? Initially, she will feel the loss of control and react accordingly - with dismay and anger. What she does after that is a toss up.

Keep up the good work.

WAT

ALS:

Great responses!

I would only add that, before you go to plan B, you give this a lot of thought: Will you be ready for DV if that's the outcome of plan B? You have to be prepared for that, because it is definitely one of the possible outcomes. And since you have no kids, it might seem the easiest path for her to take.

-Qfwfq

These have been great responses.

JR: You and I are of same mind about many things, my friend. I was thankful to find MB but wish I'd have found it even sooner. D-Day came and went by like a flash, suddenly my W was moving out (I encouraged her to leave, my bad) and her relationship with OM was growing, and continues to grow to this day. Wish I could have nipped it in the bud, but I also think it might have never went away, it may be one of those affairs that MUST run its course and die a natural death.

By the way, wow, that's a GREAT question: What do you the rest of you think of that? "W, did I do EVERYTHING I could to save our marriage?" Either way, your answer tells you something. I really like that. Not for Plan A, but definitely as a question you ask before a Dv starts. In my opinion.

WAT: Good to see you again. Great point you make about Plan B. I do agree that it should have some sort of effect of anger on my W. See, in the past she's always told me, when I asked about us, that we are through and she wants a divorce. I fear that going to Plan B will anger her more because she will question why I'm doing that when she just wants to get the divorce. She's already told me that every time I've asked (which is why I just stopped asking about our future), but am I stupid to think that there is hope for us if she has not once told me she was on the fence about us?

For Qfwfq and the rest: I wanted to post my "divorce talk" history here, it's brief, but gives a clue at what my W and I have talked about regarding our future. In a nutshell, though, when I don't talk about us our reconcilation AT ALL, W doesn't bring anything up either. Every time I ask about our future, wife's answer has been "it's over, I want a divorce, etc...".

---
Before I found MB, when my W had her A and I found out, I gave her the chance to work on the M. When she refused, and said she wanted OM, I assumed Dv was the only option. So I encouraged her to move out and even went to far as to research a no-fault divorce. After finding MB and knowing in my heart a Dv was NOT what I wanted (I was doing all this to try and "wake up" my W), I ceased all Dv discussion. But my W took the papers I'd gotten with her when she left to fill them out.

In December she wrote and told me those papers were filled out and wanted to get together to get them signed. I ignored that request and just talked to her about other topics. She didn't bring it up.

In January during a phone call, I got involved in a relationship talk with her that upset her and brought her to tears. It started because she brought up the divorce papers again. I had said "I'm still your husband" and her reply was "I have some papers here for you to sign that will change that." I told her that I didn't want a divorce, and I did not want to sign the papers. I was trying to convince her that I loved her and there was a chance for us. This got her very upset.

Now, that was the LAST time we talked divorce, or our relationship in general. I realize the mantra has been NO relationship talk at all in Plan A, so I have stopped. We haven't discussed our future or our past together once since that call. I have seen her several times and it's been friendly and light. Lately as you can see here, she has gone dark on me again and is starting to ignore me.

Oh, and to answer the other question - Not once, when I asked her, has my wife said there is a chance for us. Every time I ask, she tells me to have no hope and that we are through as a couple. I have not asked in a couple months because of that. I have no reason to see how that would be different if I asked now. I feel like she may just be waiting for me to divorce HER now.

So, there's the "history" of divorce talk in my situation. I think my W knows I don't want a divorce. But I also think that, given her last impression to me anyway, she still would be ready to sign off on one at any moment.

The big issue is that she wanted to do it no-fault as that doesn't cost much. If she wants to file on her own that costs money, money she doesn't have. She'd need an attorney. So I have no way of knowing if she isn't filing now due to indecision or due to money.

I have not yet decided how I would handle it if she brought it up to me point blank again. But she hasn't said a word. But that also worries me that, if I go to Plan B, her response will be that if I am going to NC her, then why not sign the divorce papers?
---

ALS

Wow, it's been a busy day here.

Here's the other thought I wanted to share as far as Plan A and contact goes. Let me know if you've got any opinions on this folks (or, pick your favorite option!)

As far as continuing on with my Plan A goes, I'm sort of hearing two different schools of thought and I'm not sure which to go by.

1) The first one is a more laid back approach. Initiate contact, and wait for a response. Don't initiate 2 contacts in a row. This is similar to what I've been doing. I always initiate through e-mail, never on the phone, I think she would be very upset if I called her, especially since I believe OM spends a lot of time at her place). With this menhod, sometimes she gets back to me in a day or two, but other times she just chooses to go into "ignore mode" like now, where she's ignored my last 2 emails and hasn't spoken to me in 2 weeks.

2) School of thought #2: Some people recommmend I keep writing every few days. Even if she's not responding, she is reading. And it keeps me in her thoughts. Not writing to ask her why she's not responding, mind you, rather just little upbeat emails with a funny joke or something I'm up to or whatever. The theory here is that, while she won't ALWAYS respond, eventually she will, and something is better than the nothing I get now. Plus the important thing is that even if she doesn't respond, there IS contact, even if it's one way.

So I'm sort of torn between those two schools of thought at the moment, and trying to decide how to proceed. At present time I'm 2 emails in (sent one on Saturday, another yesterday, no response to either, both were short and upbeat). The big prob is I need to write her again before I leave for my trip Wednesday as she has a travel bag of mine that I need to use. So I may hafta write AGAIN, a 3rd mail in a little over a week (to which I hope she'll respond at least to get me the bag back).

Anyway, thoughts on #1 and #2?

ALS

I'm still continuing on with this thread, but I may need to rename it, as I'm putting Plan B on the backburner for now, at least until I can hopefully get some insight as to why my W suddenly went into ignore mode with me for the past 2 weeks.

But in the meantime, I have 3 questions that I have been thinking over, regarding relationship talk with your spouse. I know that RT is a bad idea while in Plan A with a spouse having an active affair, but I also sometimes think that NO talk along these lines might also be a bad idea.

I'm trying to determine if there might be some ways to talk about it in a less-threatening way, by making the topics more about ME than about US or HER. So, I give you, the three questions:

1) Is it wrong to talk about your own personal actions of the PAST? Like, to bring up things that I did wrong personally and explain how I am realizing those things? Is that STILL OR talk and a no-no?

Example: "I realized when I was talking to my counselor that I didn't express my feelings for you enough, even though I thought them every day. For example, when I saw you in the morning when I woke up, I THOUGHT, 'Wow, W sure looks beautiful when she wakes up' but I never TOLD you that. I admire you so much but I kept it all inside and took for granted that you knew, instead of just telling you every day."

2) If you've got a counselor or a therapist, and your spouse isn't seeing one, is it okay to let your spouse know you are talking to someone and they are helping you? And furthermore, would it be over the line to ask your spouse if she wouldn't mind to sometime talk to your counselor/coach? I suspect that my coach would love to talk to my W, even just for a little while, not to try and talk her into reconciliation mind you, but even so she would be able to help ME more. Perhaps if you ask your spouse to talk to your counselor only because your counselor needs that to help YOU more, it will seem less threatening to them? Anyone ever tried this?

Keep in mind, my situation is W is in an active affair/relationship and we hardly see each other. She never has had counseling independently or with me and expresses no interest in doing so now because she does not want to save our M.

3) Is it still an affair just because we are still married, even though she said many times we are over and wants Dv? When does the affair stop being an affair?

Have at 'em!

ALS

<small>[ March 01, 2003, 06:08 PM: Message edited by: ALostSoul ]</small>

ALS ...

Hmmm ... in order:

1. I think if you decide to do this you should do so with caution and care. On the other hand, you've told her this stuff in one form already ... the Ted Bundy letter from a few months back. Is that enough? I dunno. Your coach will be a better judge.

2. I don't think it's bad to tell your wife you're getting help. This is tough and doing it alone doesn't make it easier. As for inviting your wife, again I defer.

3. She still married? Check. She still with a man who isn't her husband? Check. It really doesn't matter what she thinks she's doing. It's how you perceive it.

Those are just my quick two pennies.

Whippit, great to hear from ya, pal.

1) Heheh...The "Ted Bundy" letter. You kill me. I guess I've expressed that in the past to her, my regret about the mistakes I made, the lack of care I gave to our relationship. Maybe it's more of a compulsion I have to continue to reinforce this with her, but there's a fine line, I guess. I do want her to know that I am understand that more and more every day though. But you are right, I must be careful as well, as I'm sure I'm just itching to have some relationship talk, and I don't want it to degrade into that. I'll ask coach. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

2) Again, I'll ask coach. First off, if coach is even WILLING to talk to W. Second, if coach thinks it's a good idea for me to ask W to talk to her. And third, how to go about doing that. I do think that the reasoning there should be that coach really just needs to talk to her to help ME with my progress. Get another opinion on ME. I mean, coach has only heard my side of things, maybe W can help me to express something to coach which I have not been able.

However, I would need to find a way to make it sound VERY safe to W, not a counseling session for HER, I think she is very against this (and even scared) but my coach is so good that I bet if I got her on the phone with her once, she'd be willing to do it again.

3) I need to remind myself it's really my opinion, right? By defnition, an affair is an affair when a married person is emotionally or physically involved with another than their spouse. So in that regard, whether we are separated or not, or it's in the open, to me, still an affair. To my W, I never think it was an affair. I hope by now she's at least come to terms with the fact that I was betrayed and cheated on. Even though she may NEVER admit it, I do hope she at least knows herself.

Thank you muchly!

ALS

Just wanted to bump this up for my non-weekend viewers... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />