Yesterday was definitely a weird and fascinating day...I don't know if I'm coming or going...

It all started out innocently enough, I had in mind speaking with D about the DV agreement, since I have to turn it in to the attorney by tomorrow (not a set-in-stone deadline, just a date we'd chosen).
So we're here doing the normal routine, she's on the phone, I'm doing my thing...and I heard something like "...bad news!? ok, I'll call you back..." which immediately raised red flags for me. But...as is by now customary, I said nothing, and she said nothing.

A while later, she went out to get the mail, and I had this sudden "urge" to go in her office and look around...I know, not good, but it just happened. And what do I find? 5-6 letters and cards from the OM...some as late as Feb 7th...a Valentine's Day love letter!

Of course, everything boiled up inside me...all the pain, all the anger, all the everything! I almost went over the edge...had thoughts of another confrontation, thoughts of just chucking it all, whatever slim and insignificant chance there still might be...everything!

But I stopped. I realized I was angry, and I realized my heart was racing and I was allowing my ego to take over; and I decided not to let it. I fought back. I said; "she has the right to do this...it's her life...I'm divorcing her...why does it hurt, why!!!!, stop! Stop!!!! STOP!!!!!!!"

I calmed myself down enough to talk to her, asked her to please find some time for us to get together today to discuss the terms, since I had to see the attorney tomorrow. I was probably still quite tense, but I said nothing. She said she didn't understand why I could change so fast, and be like a different person. We'd had some conversations about separating the ego/emotion from the heart/soul and how hard this was, and I tried to explain again how although my heart/soul knows and feels a certain way, soemtimes my emotions take over again, and that I am just learning and trying. She doesn't get that too well, I don't think...maybe one day she will. For now, it's just one more cause for concern and doubt in her; for distrust. She is probably not yet ready to see how this happens, and that's ok. She handed me a letter she said she'd written me, still shaking her head...I said I was going to run my errands and we'd talk later if that was ok with her.

I decided to go out and breathe...run my errands and think. Of course, it was a mighty struggle...driving down the road I was mad as hell, I wanted to scream, tell everyone, destroy her, call the kids, my MIL and SILs and everyone....just expose her, just end the damned farce for once and for all!

Little by little, I calmed down...I chanted my meditations to myself, in the car, in line at the post office, and I managed to slow my heart rate and the anger I felt like a tingling sensation going up and down my chest and throat. Suddenly, unexpectedly; I was back. I'd controlled the swelling, almost unbelievable anger and pain.

And I started thinking again. And what I came up with was that I'd calm down completely, let her know I'd found the letters, and simply say "look, I found these, this confirms that what I feared is still happening, but that's OK. It's your right to do that and I will not judge or get angry. But I think the time has come for us to make a decision; we can either find a way that works for both of us to try to recover and rebuild, based on committment, honesty, and mutual support, or we should just let the DV go through and that's that."

So that's exactly what I did. Very calmly, very softly, I sat her down when I came back, told her I'd not read her letter, and handed her her letter back, together with his letters and cards.

And that started a bit of resistance from her, but she managed to stay relatively calm when she saw I was not going to go crazy over this, when she saw I was being cool and rational. She saw, perhaps for the first time, a side of me she never thought existed.

And we talked for a while. It went up and down in tempo and heatedness, but overall it remained calm, honest, kind, and understanding. We agreed we'd talk some more, and try to find some way, some plan, something! I simply said; "I'm open to anything at all, as long as there's committment, it is based on honesty and no more lies, and on mutually supporting each other in facing our demons, working through them." I also said that we had to do it now, that it could just not wait any longer.

We both exposed our points of view, we both listened to each other and gave each other the benefit of the doubt, and we both learned about each other. In the end, I hugged her, looked her in the eyes and said; "I understand you have searched for the love I was not giving you elsewhere. I understand that and I accept that, even if it hurts my heart and my ego. And I want you to know that if we can find a way to work this out together, give ourselves a chance to save this marriage, I can even accept the fact that you still need this contact, provided it is not secret, and provided your ultimate desire is to honestly work towards getting us back."

I almost couldn't believe I'd said that!

She couldn't either. She came to see me a few minutes later and said, crying, "I have never seen that part of you, thank you for being honest and thank you for saying all you said."

As the afternoon came, we'd both gotten back to our stuff, and of course, the doubts and fears atarted growing in me again. Some of their letters said things like "...and I want no more interference from your EX", and even more damaging; "...about marriage; I am honored that you would ask me, as I feel unworthy, but nothing would make me happier than to marry you..." and "...we can make arrangements with the warden to marry here..." and "...our children, our family..." Invariably these things just gnaw at me, burn me, sting like wasps! So I decided, So I decided, wrongly perhaps,
that regardless of whether there is still a chance to find a way, however remote it may be, I cannot allow it to be another stalling tactic, just in case what the letters say is actually true and serious...I mean if she's really serious about that stuff with the OM, and maybe she's just waiting to see if they can get permission, or she just wants to keep me around long enough to make sure her "other plans" will work, or...whatever she's waiting to happen to actually happen...my never-ending fear...that she's stalling and stalling just until she's ready to dump me!

So I decided to still tell her that we needed to finish the details of the DV agreement, because if we couldn't find a way to work something out, there was probably no other option...bad move!

It all came back again! All the accusations, all the fault, all the doubt, all the mistrust! So I played along as best I could, tried to defuse the situation, and finally did, but certainly not before causing some damage I'd already managed to undo earlier today!

So I did the best I could to explain and show that the two were not contrary, that she had to understand my fears too, as I was trying to understand hers, and that inevitably, if we could not find a reasonable, mutually acceptable "plan" to try to go forward, the best thing would be to let the DV go through, under the best possible conditions for us and the kids.

I'm so terrible at remembering all the details, many of which are probably significant, but I'm just not "drawn that way"...so my apologies to my dear friends here on the forum, and I hope I've been able to give you enough to understand what happened, and perhaps give me some feedback...which I sorely need!!!

<small>[ March 06, 2003, 06:23 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

space- wow I wish I had your strength to say and to mean the things you said but most of all to remain calm!

I have no advice to offer except to say that no matter what happens you have grown becasue of this and you are a better man!

STTSI

Spacecase,
I want you to know that you have made many friends here at MB. We all know that you have given your best to try to save your family. I think we all need another Houston vent session! Take care..Rhonda

Dear Cadet,

I am sorry that the fog still hangs around the Houston area. To even consider M to a person in his position is well.... ludicrious. Wonder if she would like it if your D did the same. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

I am proud of the way you handled yourself. You did well. Better than most, I'd say....definitely better than me. I was fuming when I read your post but calmed down when I saw how you handled it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

take care,
L.

Space,
A will end ... not now not yet but it will. The question is when and are we willing to wait for it ?. Even in the case of 5%, they are not living in happiness. When tough time comes to test their R, they won't survive. There is a time to cash in the rain check of Dv to save your sanity, you know when.

-rh-

SC-

I wouldn't beat yourself up too much about getting upset, I mean you're only human right? You've shown amazing patience and perserverance for a long time so just remember at this stage to take care of yourself. Wish I had some more advice but it looks like you've done about everything you could do....Hang in there and know we're pulling for you!

I totally disagree with this statement:

"So I decided to tell her we needed to finish the details of the DV agreement, because if we couldn't find a way to work something out , there was probably no other option" ... {{this is the part I disagree with --->>> }} ... "bad move."

Noooo , not "bad move" in my opinion!

Your previous offer of getting back together while she maintains contact .... THAT was the bad move. It's like waving heroin in front of an addict and saying, "As long as you're honest with me about your heroin, I can accept you need it." ....

The hallmark of addiction is the requirement of secrecy. You're asking the impossible from her. Addicts lie.

I can see why she hugged you! "Whoopee! I get cake and frosting, and sprinkles, and whipped creame, and a space-cherry on top! Woo-woo! I live in a sweets shop! And I have unlimited credit!"

((((SPACE)))) .... you love that woman down to your toenails .... she is an addict however, and your love is freely accepted as long as she is free to remain an addict. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Pep

<small>[ March 01, 2003, 09:49 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Pepper:

And believe me when I say *I* hear you.

Won't pretend to like it, but I hear it and understand it.

-Qfwfq

SC:

Considering the "state" of your M at this point, I have to ask you. Are you looking for a place to move to? I sure would be.

All my warmest to you. I'll see you in a couple of weeks,

♥ Qfwfq

Interesting- if she doesn't want you, why hasn't SHE left you, to get away from you.

Why hasn't she filed for divorce herself? Why doesn't she want to quickly hammer out an agreement so she can get the ball rolling and marry OM?

(((((Space))))))),
I know that must have hurt!!! Looks like her fog would eventually lift, but who can understand the fog??? My WH has been remarried since Dec., and our DV still isn't final.

He won't sign the final papers that our atty. drew up in Jan. I feel unable to move on and am so anxious and ready to get it over with.

I don't know what to tell you, but i do think your continued presence and support to her is a super-human feat. You must have the spirit of God in you, Space. You have certainly given it your all, and have changed for the better yourself, God only knows why they can't see it and meet us half-way, or even a quarter of the way.
Keep us posted, you are in my prayers...
KK

Hey Spaceguy - sorry to hear of the most recent developments - it started out so well....I agree w/ Pepper, though, that telling her you could live w/ contact was the bad move, not telling her you needed to continue finalizing the Dv paperwork.

I was so livid that D would even consider M to this yahoo, good for nothing, user. The fog we've had over the past week here in the big H MUST me the aura around D!!!

If you need to talk, you have my numbers.

Regards,

BB

Ditto x10 what Pep said.

Some fear and control was probably creeping back in there Space. Don't you dare take her back while she has him on the side.

Hi Space, I am very very sorry about the events that just happened... I am proud of you and respectful of you and your strength and calm. You have truly become a better person through the heat of all of this.

Most of here a while have become stronger and more calm in the storm. I applaud your strength and gentleness in the eye of the hurricane.... or even in the actual tornado!/ hurricane! Awful stuff to find those letters.

I hope things get more honest and true and there is a chance for you to save your marriage...

The fog can be so dense.

The stories you told here a while back about your wives upbringing seem to tell a story that somewhere she may not of gotten what she needed and this man from her past forged quite a connection with her at a young age and that is part of the confusion. Her emptiness.... I am so sorry. I would encourage you to be strong spiritually and bring her to see what she too can gain in this type of unconditional love. Being close to God yourself can give you strength through this, but as she sees your growth and your love of her, yourself and your children just as our Father would love us.. and does.. this will help her grow in love and honesty and truth hopefully for the marriage and your family.

Above is what I am doing. My spouse is fogged, and boundaries are being drawn, right now his A is with a bottle again, which was going on before the first OW. I hate this - and turning things over to my higher power is all that I can do.

I pray for him the best I can and do my best to protect myself from the injuries he unknowingly / knowingly inflicts on me and the boys.

Hugs to You Space. I too vote for a Houston reunion and will post on that. This week I only have MOnday and Tuesday available, but next week have more time if anyone does.

You and your family are in my prayers as well.

Hope and wellness, happiness and health.

Honey

First a quick note to Espoir; That SHE has not asked for or even filed for DV herself is probably the ONLY reason for ANY hope at all I've had lately. But of course, the other side of that is that she still wants my presence, support, etc. while things with the OM become clearer. Remember he's in prison until 2010, so until he's out, it's likely she wouldn't mind having me around...

To all; thanks for your support. Pep, BR, all of you are right, of course, it is only my fear of the future without her that makes me think there may be some good, some glimmer of truth in what she says...everything else says "run in the other direction...fast!!!"

I will not even attempt any type of reconciliation, much less halting the divorce, unless there is a much clearer committment on her part to working on us. She said yesterday she wants another separation so she can "get her stuff together", but I'm sure it's just one more of her numerous stall tactics, which have been going on since dday 1.5 yrs. ago...all designed to keep me around as long as possible until the OM's appeal or early release, or whatever becomes clearer...

I'm headed to divorce, no doubt. Like someone says here often, she is not ready to "do whatever it takes", and since she's not...it's probably not real at all.

In any case, it's been good for my soul to be here, still help her and show her love, care, concern...perhaps it is that which might bring her back someday when she discovers the awful fantasy she's been living under. And even if it doesn't, it'll at least show her what she should strive for in any new relationship. It has been satisfying to me to be here with my kids, having them see me give her love and support, even under these very trying circumstances...I will not act in fear...not anymore. I clearly recognize my response as having been in fear, but no more...

All my love!

<small>[ March 02, 2003, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

We went out to lunch together to talk. As we'd agreed, we wanted to continue the conversation we'd begun, in the sense of exploring possible options.

As usual, we started with the recriminations and defensiveness, but fortunately, I was able to bring it back by describing to her that I understood the difference between the D I know and love, the REAL one that resides in her heart and soul, and the "other one", the one who is the hurt D, who responds with attack and defense, and that it was the first one, the real one, the one I wanted to speak with, the one I love and the one we needed present.

Likewise, that it was the real SC who would make every effort to be the one present. The SC SHE knows and loves...not the destructive one who has hurt her.

She says that all of those "conversations" in the letters are primarily the figment of the OM's imagination; that like any prisoner, his only hope it to have a dream alive, and to be actively working towards gaining his release, and that these things he says, about "our children", and "marriage", and all of that are just the things that he says, and she "goes along with" to help him keep his spirit alive...it's very, very far-fetched, but it is possible, I guess...the only part I find almost impossible to believe is the part about him making up this idea that she wants to marry him up, to the point of answering that he "accepts her proposal".

D also said that what she needs is to be separated from ALL emotional involvements for a time, in order to "heal" and to get herself back together again, and this is perhaps THE critical part of the conversation, that she now knows that includes ending all contact with the OM.

I asked her what she hoped to accomplish with this, and she said that she hopes to be able to forgive me, and to be able to decide, without any emotional attachments whatsoever, if we have a future together or not.

We went back and forth on several points, especially her ongoing lies about contact, and how I was supposed to believe, now, that this was real. She said she's not sure.

I asked if she'd be willing to be the one to leave, rather than me, and she said no. She won't leave her kids. She also said she knew she was asking a lot from me, that she was aware of the fact that this was coming after I had been doing a lot for a long time, (The hurt, ego-driven D doesn't recognize this!), and that she'd understand if I chose not to do it. She also said that even if we divorce, what's to keep up from getting together again later if we want to! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> And I guess she's right...we could. It may be awkward, but we could.

I said I had to think about it. That she should understand my reluctance and my lack of faith since this type of "promise" has been made and broken many, many times before, and that she should understand my lack of faith in believing that what the OM says in his letters is not "real" but the "dream" that she has permitted him to have in order to help him make it through his incarceration.

But I said I might be willing to entertain the idea if she could give me something concrete in the sense of knowing that further contact with the OM was truly ended during this period. She said she'd think about how to do that (something she has ALSO said, and not met, in the past). We also established that there were no guarantees...that after this "timeperiod" of separation, it could still go either way.

She asked me what the difference to me was if we divorce now or 4 months from now? and I said there was really no difference, except that if I felt, as I have lately, that there's no chance, there was no reason to delay it; but that if I felt there was a chance, and honest chance, it made no difference to me at all.

On the way home we kept talking, and she said something about having begun to do just that (process, forgive, etc.) when I was away at the hotel, to which I retorted that this was a lie, since there was evidence of continued contact during that time, and in fact one of the letters, precisely the one where he accepts her marriage proposal, was dated during this time; early November.

This sent the conversation back to "hurt and defend" ego-land, and as we walked into the house I was saying to her "F... IT! let's get a divorce! How do you want to tell the kids and our families?" to which she said she'd think about it!

A few minutes later, she came up to my room, and wanted to reconcile this. FIRST TIME!!! She said "you see, you too cannot control that part of you", and I said "Of course I can't, not most the time. But I'm trying."

I think we both have learned a valuable lesson here; the "real" us has to be present, and we must be aware of that other "us" when he/she shows up, put them away, and get back to the "real us" asap in order to talk and not destroy.

So she said she understood, I said I did too, and we went back to agreeing to talk some more, and both of us think and see what we can come up with. Clearly, this outburst made sufficient impact that she knew she had to "fix" it quick.

So we agreed that we'd find some time between now and Monday when she leaves to have another talk. She said she had more things to tell me...???

Sooooooo.....

On the one hand, IF she's serious, there could be a chance here, even if all she says about the OM and his letters is false, since she just might be starting to reach the conclusion (when SHE, and not her scared, ego-drive self is present), that any future with him is almost absurdly unlikely. On the other hand, she HAS said these things before, and they've turned out to be lies...

Then there's the matter of "proof" or sufficiently solid indicators that contact has ended and will not resume during this "separation"...which I think highly unlikely she can provide.

And then there's the matter of...heck, it's been SO long, I have NO reason to belive her, and MANY reasons NOT to believe her, and all she's EVER done is stall for more time, and she's probably doing that again. It certainly seems like the prospect of divorce has been the ONLY catalyst to dialog and change up until now....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As usual, we started with the recriminations and defensiveness, but fortunately, I was able to bring it back by describing to her that I understood the difference between the D I know and love, the REAL one that resides in her heart and soul, and the "other one", the one who is the hurt D, who responds with attack and defense, and that it was the first one, the real one, the one I wanted to speak with, the one I love and the one we needed present.

Likewise, that it was the real SC who would make every effort to be the one present. The SC SHE knows and loves...not the destructive one who has hurt her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow...I am feeling very enlightened and educated by your realization that there are different sides to both of you, and that you both know which side you really need to try to keep at the forefront. Very impressive.

I'm sorry to hear that D is pretty much suggesting you move out so she can be alone and think some more. You've pretty much been there and done that and sound naturally hesitant about whether it will really help to make any progress.

But all in all, your ability to communicate with each other has grown leaps and bounds. That's thanks to your perserverence, patience and hard work. Way to go.

Take care,

Jen

Space,

I don't think she gets it yet. I had numerous conversations just like this during our false recovery, and yet again when I confronted my husband with concrete information about his extra marital activities even while in counseling with Steve.

He said lots of stuff that sounded good. His actions still didn't match. And sorry, she DOES know what she would have to do to prove to you her honesty, and she isn't offering that.

You will know its true IF and only IF she comes to you with a plan to rebuild your trust. Period.

She probably doesn't want a divorce, but she doesn't want to do what it takes to stay married.

Stay the course Space, she has to understand that you are truely honestly finished with this kind of behavior.

BR,
You are right. This is the reality. The reality I have so hesitated to face, the reality that I have so feared...but it is, nonetheless, the reality and I'd be equally "foggy" were I to let it go on any longer.

The DV was filed Feb 4 (or was it 6th?) and it's moving along. Unless we stop it, it'll be final sometime in early to mid April.

And I'll be moving out to my own place, with my stuff, (what I asked for in the DV), as soon as I start my new job next week, so that'll be in a couple of weeks I imagine.

Thanks for being there, and thanks for the reality checks you've always been so good at making!

All my love!

Jen,
The realization that there are two (or more) of us inside all of us is an important one. It allows us to see more clearly and be conscious of the fact that what we think of as ourselves is NOT that ego-driven, emotion-driven self, but rather the more sane, logical, true self that resides somewhere inside and comes out only at times.
When we believe that this ego-driven self is who we are, what we are, we have affairs, we destroy, we take revenge, we do all of these hurtful and self-defeating things. Self-pity, victim, etc.
When we connect to the "real" us, that rational self who thinks things through with logic and not with emotion, that "good" self which is tolerant and understanding of the irrational behavior of a "foggy" spouse, for instance, we are closer to love, to the source, and we act out of love, not out of fear.

Which is why, perhaps, it may appear that we are being doormats, or what-have-you, when in reality we are doing things out of love, understanding, compassion, and the realization that all of us have the right to do as we wish, and that our happiness is not created by the actions or non-actions of another human being, but comes only from within our own self.

Realizing too that we are unable to always have that self present, it is useful and sane to be able to stop, observe ourselves, realize "boy that was my angry, scared ego who just said that", and make the conscious decision to bring back the real self again, and thus continue the conversation in honesty and love, not in defensive and attacking postures.

By the way, this is the essence of meditation; becoming more and more aware of those two selves, and making the connection with the real one more often; observing ourselves, stopping when we see the ego-self taking over, and bringing the real self back.