SC:

Shoot! I know!!! How about "Fringus"!?

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
-Qfwfq

Ahemmm..

Would "Brown Eye Dwarf" be too crass??
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
committed

and a "Fringus" is....?

It's a quote from "You were born on a rotten day", a humorous horoscope I bought as a teenager. It's where I got that quote "Your love life is governed by the distant planet Fringus, which is only 3 inches in diameter."

Amongst others:

"You have a tendency to be shy while undressing outdoors."

"People born under the sign of Aquarius are all wet. They swim upstream to spawn."

"Your lucky number is 139484571398475593187455. Watch for it everywhere!"

-ol' Qfwfq

I think I like "Brown Dwarf" better; even the initials have a "ring" to them: "BD!" ... as in VD or "BeaDy"....Brown Dwarf it is!

Opinions, please.

As you know, all indications point to DV being the only option at this point given that there are no signs of anything but further deceit.

Now, here's the rub: I have all this information about her ongoing shenanigans with "Brown Dwarf". Shenanigans that, in this case, certainly point to possibly dangerous/illegal behavior. And even if it weren't dangerous/illegal, it certainly points to a very disturbed state of mind.
Bearing in mind that she will still be with my children living with her for at least a year and some, and seeing as I will no longer be around to have some curtailing effect (wishful thinking, I know!) on her activities, would it be a good thing to make some of this information known to her family, maybe some close friends...that way at least if she one day listens to someone sane, she might get some help...

or should I just let it be?

Letting it be feels like "covering" for her on my part...but making it public feels like too hurtful and unnecessary...it'll only cause me grief from her and perhaps worse.

Now what about my kids; they are 20, 17 and 17...should THEY know what their mom is really up to? In the past I've been quite open with them, but I've spared them many of the gory details...

SC:

I think the kids should know. They're old enough, certainly, but you also want to protect them in the unlikely event that BD gets out early and decides to move in. GEEZ.

Is there any way you could have them move in with you? Or maybe you stay in the house and your W moves out? I know you've given the reasons before, but are they reasonable reasons? Really?

As to telling a friend/family member. I believe she needs help. Someone she'll listen to that can realize what a dangerous "failed star" this BD truly is. And HOPEFULLY before something terrible happens to HER. But are any of them the kind that could really help?

I go round and round, as I'm sure you do. I still can't imagine how the heck she got herself into this situation so deeply and can't see the dangers herself?... but that's not helping answer your question.

Have you talked to her about all the evidence you have? Not that you have to, but it might make it clear to her the depth of your concerns, particularly for the kids.

All my best,
♥Qfwfq

Here's another reason why "BD" is a great choice: it's an acronym in teaching circles for "behaviour disorder"!

Jen

That must be like the "Scurvy Elephant" that Wayne Dyer talks about...as a parody for "Disturbing Element"...

SC,

I think you should tell the children the whole truth. They are old enough, and honestly deserve, to know everything that might in some way affect their future.

If she continues her present course, I would tell her family. Just prior to the completion of the D maybe? Timing may not be so important where telling them is concerned. But, the extended family also has a right to know what type of person their daughter, sister, cousin is bringing into their midst.

Make no mistake, others could suffer later because they were not informed of this guys past. Do not allow WS to pull the wool over her loved ones eyes.

jd

Dear SC -

I have to say that I have been very worried by her "explanation" - that she is only "leading him on" about the possible marriage, to "help him get through his sentence". What exactly does she think he will do to her in 2010 when he gets out and finds out she was "just saying that to help him get through"? A guy doesn't spend that long in prison, living on hope, just to be disappointed by the woman he thought he had in the bag. Is it possible she is in too deep and is too scared to back out?

I think this is really serious - and if you have evidence that she is in any way involved in helping him engage in illegal activity from prison, I think this goes beyond you and your wife - you are trying to shield her from some hard consequences (shame and humiliation? loss of esteem of her family and children? loss of reputation which would affect her business?), but you are potentially enabling her to engage in something far more dangerous to her than those consequences.

I worry about this. I don't think under these circumstances, you should keep what you know to yourself. Her family would be very upset if they found out later that you knew something and did not give them a chance to help her.

LIR

SC,

This is a very complicated situation, but in some ways very very simple. You don't have to protect the marriage any longer. So you can do what is right. This issue is what is right?

I feel that your children really need to know who/what this man is. He is in jail for a very serious reason and one that could adversely affect your children and even your grandchildren. Not just that he might expose them to drugs, but by the nature of people he is around violence is a very real issue.

So I think your children need to be told. I think her parents if alive need to know. Perhaps a clergy man who she knows and trusts, so that someone can keep an eye on her and perhaps she will have someone to confide in.

But, first and foremost she needs to know what you know. You are not trying to save this marriage and there really is no reason to protect her any more. You don't have to be hurtful, but you do need to show her and tell her what you know (have copies made and stored in case she decides to tear these up).

I guess there is one last comment I think I ought to make. The odds are very high that when he gets out, he will dump her once he has used her for what he needs. He will trade her in for a younger, prettier, dumber woman when he gets on his feet. He is using her now as you have amply showed, and it will continue until he is released, gets on his feet, and then moves on.

I say this because your children will need to know and understand these things. Perhaps not now, but she will have to turn to someone and even this could be dangerous. You children need to be aware of this eventuality.

SC, your situation has always bothered me greatly because the outcome is guarenteed. I know of no other case on the board where the WS is "almost assured" of being destroyed by her OM. This is the case in your situation. Although she has treated you horribly, it saddens me to KNOW that she will be destroyed because I know it will still hurt you, and your children.

The only hope is that after the divorce, she wakes up and realizes what and how this man is. We can only pray.

You have my thoughts, I hope some of them help.

God Bless,

JL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Just Learning:
<strong>SC,

This is a very complicated situation, but in some ways very very simple. You don't have to protect the marriage any longer. So you can do what is right. This issue is what is right?

I feel that your children really need to know who/what this man is. He is in jail for a very serious reason and one that could adversely affect your children and even your grandchildren. Not just that he might expose them to drugs, but by the nature of people he is around violence is a very real issue.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree entirely. However, it is difficult for me to do this. She is, after all, their mother, and whtever else she may be (or has become) she has been a truly marvelous mother, and has formed them into truly wonderful kids. But they do need to know how their lives might be affected by their mother's actions, no doubt. A tough thing to do without seeming vindictive...

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
So I think your children need to be told. I think her parents if alive need to know. Perhaps a clergy man who she knows and trusts, so that someone can keep an eye on her and perhaps she will have someone to confide in.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Her mother is alive, knows all about this, and is just as perplexed as I am about what is happening. She loves me and we have had a wonderful relationship ever since I dated D when we were kids. She has supported my decision to divorce, and recognizes that I have done more than many would do to try to "bring her around". However, she has very little influence on D. There is no clergy-person with whom D is close, but there is one friend of ours, who was our neighbor for many years...I think perhaps she is the only one D MIGHT listen to, and she's certainly the one D would turn to for advice IF she ever chose to do that.
Again, it is difficult to present this to her without seeming vindictive, but I will have to find a way.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
But, first and foremost she needs to know what you know. You are not trying to save this marriage and there really is no reason to protect her any more. You don't have to be hurtful, but you do need to show her and tell her what you know (have copies made and stored in case she decides to tear these up).</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, now she knows that I know. And I do have copies of everything. Precisely the most discouraging thing about this is that when I confronted her with the knowledge, she attempted to dismiss it as "insignificant" and "the ramblings of a desperate man" rather than facing the truth which is that she has gotten herself perhaps deeper than she wished...but I don't know for sure. For all I know, she really feels this is "her man" and is convinced of this fantasy...I really cannot tell.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I guess there is one last comment I think I ought to make. The odds are very high that when he gets out, he will dump her once he has used her for what he needs. He will trade her in for a younger, prettier, dumber woman when he gets on his feet. He is using her now as you have amply showed, and it will continue until he is released, gets on his feet, and then moves on.

I say this because your children will need to know and understand these things. Perhaps not now, but she will have to turn to someone and even this could be dangerous. You children need to be aware of this eventuality.

SC, your situation has always bothered me greatly because the outcome is guarenteed. I know of no other case on the board where the WS is "almost assured" of being destroyed by her OM. This is the case in your situation. Although she has treated you horribly, it saddens me to KNOW that she will be destroyed because I know it will still hurt you, and your children.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This brought tears to my eyes, JL...and I must agree with you. It is much more insidious than most other cases, and it has the added aggravating circumstance that it is being faced by one of the most tenacious and determined WSs I've ever seen. Steve Harley himself said this to me when we were Cing with him...that he'd never run across a tougher, more determined WS who never really even tried to learn something from what he attempted to convey.

Sadly, this does make me very worried, and just as sadly, it WILL hurt me deeply when it happens. I can only hope she has the courage to reach out to me then, even if only for help or comfort. I don't imagine she'd ever do that, though. She's way too proud and sure of herself to ever admit she was wrong. Especially to me. She still has a deep need to be right.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
The only hope is that after the divorce, she wakes up and realizes what and how this man is. We can only pray.

You have my thoughts, I hope some of them help.

God Bless,

JL </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I too hold out some hope of that...but he's away for many more years...it could be several years before she realizes this or has to face the "real" OM.

My sincere thanks for your thoughts and advice. I hope we can hook up when I'll be in your area at the end of March.

Dumb Dark Star is in prison only for the charges he was caught doing, and was convicted of doing.

I am as certain he has done other criminal activities he never was caught doing, and was caught doing things but could not be convicted in a court of law.

This man is dangerous to your family.

My opinion is this.... evil wins ... if good MEN refuse to do what is right.
Pep

Indeed, Pep, indeed.

I've seen his "rap sheet" and it is positively nightmarish!

As it is, he plea-bargained for the 12 years he got, and they dropped other charges in exchange for that!

He's pretty much been put away since '93 except for a few of years of probation in between...no reason to believe this will change.

Even worse, since he's not a US citizen, he'll probably be deported once he finishes his sentence...unless he marries an American...which I suspect is one of the reasons he's so determined to keep D enthralled... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

SC:

He's serving a 20-yr sentence? Sheez!

"ven worse, since he's not a US citizen, he'll probably be deported once he finishes his sentence...unless he marries an American...which I suspect is one of the reasons he's so determined to keep D enthralled..."

So, have you TOLD HER these thoughts?????

I'd be hopping the first rocket to Mars if I had to strap her into her seat against her will and I'd be taking my kids with me. But I guess that wouldn't be right...

-Qfwfq

Well then .... damn the torpedos ... full steam ahead!

In order for YOUR FAMILY to be protected from this monster ... they need all the factual information.

LB'ing D is certainly a lesser evil than exposing a monster to your family.

Pep

I agree with everyone else re danger, and perplexity. You should without any question fulluy inform your children re the particulars of their existence. This has nothing to do with loyalty to mother, it has to do with their survival, and they are adults (even the twins), they absolutely need to know these things. Obviously you would convey the information in an appropriate way (meaning not used to manipulate wife).

I have been pondering your wifes rationale. Assuming she is not clinically insane (and I wonder about that), I can only reach one conclusion. This is a resucer/victim scenario, albeit more instense than usual. Your wife the shining knight rescuer, the scumbag being the victim, each playing their role with great passion. I think your wife is sincere (albeit confdused obviously), but we are assuming the victim is not sincere, but calculating...and cannot understand why your w cannot see that. Perhaps the victim is sincere too, really believes he is the downtrodden, worthy of being saved...that prevents your w from illumination cause it FEELS REAL....even though it is still a manipulation.

If this is true then the model you need to consider is a cult. Your wife needs to be de-programmed, before she drinks the poisoned coolaid. I am generally vigorously opposed to imposing ones will on a ws, they are entitled to make the choices they see fit....but I draw the line at personal danger (physical or psychological), in such cases IMO family are empowered to directly intervene, using force if necessary (as in rescue from a cult) and imposed de-programming (up to a point, cannot imprison someone forever if they are determined to self-destruct, but it is worth one shot). I am not sure how you can apply this, but IMO you should do all you can to prevent contact (including alerting prison authorities to do whatever they can to cut contact with w). Expose the circumstances to all family members so she sees no one validates this (I know, that can push her away too, but she is already lost). If possible arrrange for her to be isolated on a reteat type of scenario, where it is impossible for her to contact for as long as possible (month would be nice), while force feeding her (so to speak, but gently) "healthy" food, a lot of family (especially kids) interaction and concern. Do fun stuff to if possible...GET HER OUT OF THIS ENVIROMENT, send her as far as possible, maybe austrailia, go trek Europe, anything...just a complete change of enviroment....you got to reach her somehow.

Lastly along with the above, study up (and get lots of professional input) on the pathology of a rescuer gone amuck. This will dictate the de-programming strategy. Personally I think the kids are the key, if they can be shown how best to reach her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Qfwfq:
<strong>SC:

He's serving a 20-yr sentence? Sheez!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The current one is 12 years, although with "good behavior" and all that other "stuff" (prisoners' rights, you know) he should be out in about 10 (2010).

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
"ven worse, since he's not a US citizen, he'll probably be deported once he finishes his sentence...unless he marries an American...which I suspect is one of the reasons he's so determined to keep D enthralled..."

So, have you TOLD HER these thoughts?????</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No...this is an aspect I have not touched on since I'm not sure this is how it works or what the conditions/factors are as they relate to this. It is my understanding that they get deported, but he hasn't gotten deported before after serving previous sentences, so I haven't got all the info.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I'd be hopping the first rocket to Mars if I had to strap her into her seat against her will and I'd be taking my kids with me. But I guess that wouldn't be right...

-Qfwfq </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've thought of this, but when "real" sets in, I know it would be very difficult for me to do it. The fight would be to the death, and I fear that would be worse for all involved.

My kids will be 18 next year, and no longer "bound" to her. They will do the right thing for themselves when the time comes, and I don't have much fear of him getting out before they graduate from HS next year and head to college. So even if he does get out in a couple of years, and they do "get together", the kids will have the choice of being with them or not, and for how long.

LurkingAbout;

I don't mean to pry or otherwise discuss topics you may not wish to discuss here, but is your above post a "professional" opinion? What I mean is are you involved professionally in an area where your conclusions are based on this expertise, or are you speculating based on knowledge obtained elsewhere?

You don't have to answer this, of course.