Ok,
More than 1 request for an update, so here goes. I haven't posted (at least not about me) in quite a while, so I'll try and fill in the blanks.

I am now taking 2 AD's (Paxil and Trazadone sp?), which have helped stabilize my moods. I've quit snooping and checking up on her in part because I wasn't finding anything anymore, my gut wasn't telling me to, and I was driving myself crazy checking up on every little thing.

Wife has set a date. She will begin looking for a place in March, and plans to move out April 1st. I still don't see how she can do it financially, but she says she will make it. I'm no longer trying to get her to stay, I still tell her she can stay, and I want her to, but I don't ask her to anymore. We had a joint session with my IC last week to go over some things. My IC says she doesn't see love in her eyes, she says the way my wife acts around me and looks at me is friendly affection, not the way a wife looks at a husband.

My wife broke down the other day and said she wishes she could be happy with me, it would be so much easier to stay, but she still isn't happy despite all the changes I've made. We still have sex, (she still won't "make Love") but now she's starting to feel inadequate because of the side affects of the AD's (only 2 orgasm's in the past month).

She's now talking about joining the National Guard. Personally I think she's running away and won't face her fears and our problems. But, I've come to the realization that I can't make her go through this; she has to do it when she's ready. She still keeps looking for someone for me, that part I still don't understand. Lately she keeps telling me how pretty and nice the girl at the coffee shop is, she thinks I should ask her out (not a chance).

Her sister called last week and I talked to her for nearly an hour. Nothing was said about the marriage, mostly her sister talking about her life and relationships. I made the comment that it was amazing how alike the 2 of them are, both afraid of commitment, both refuse to show true emotion, neither will allow anyone to become close to them, etc, etc, etc. Apparently her sister called their mom and yelled at her, telling her it was all her fault because neither of her daughters are capable of love. Her mom of course denies this and says that they are big girls who make their own decisions.

Her mom called looking for wife a couple of days later but she was at work. We talked for about 1/2 hour, but nothing was said about marriage. I don't know if she is afraid to bring it up, or if she resents me that much, or if she feels guilty (I don't think so) or what it is. Kinda strange though.

I'm just taking it one day at a time. I hope that someday she will come back and we can work it out. But for right now I'm sure she's leaving, and now I'm starting to think that we may even divorce. This thought hadn't come to me for a long time, I just didn't believe it could happen, but now I'm starting to think so. I'm working out a lot more now (my new obsession?), still trying to buy the house and plan on buying a new Harley (The bike not the big honcho) after I close on the house. Don't know if any of that means anything, but I figured I'd throw it out anyway. Well, sorry for being so long winded, thanks for asking though. It's nice to know someone still cares.

TM-

sounds as if you're doing what you need to for you. This is good.

W moving out is a necessary part of her growth. I know this is hard for you, but she needs to do what she has to in order for her to heal. You REALLY do seem to "get" it in that there is NOTHING you can do to change her. You can simply tell her you love her, be her friend, but continue to live for you and the kids.

You're doing great, and we DO care very much....

God Bless-You're in my prayers.

Ok,
Getting more confused by the day. We went to the mall the other day and spent the day shopping. Spent WAY TOO MUCH MONEY, but we had fun. Walking around in the mall my wife all of the sudden, out of nowhere, grabs my hand. We walked around holding hands for a while, she even switched bags to her other hand so she could hold my hand. Then when we got home she thanked me several times for a very nice day.

She still keeps talking about finding a place, but she hasn't started yet. And, she still is talking about moving out 01 April. I guess we'll just wait and see.

TM-

Try not to read into anything too deeply. I think that the attentiono you were showing her put some deposits in the LB and she was going with the moment. Unfortunately, we all know the cycle that she is going through....

Just try to continue the work that you are doing. Eventually, she will have to get off the fence. You are a great guy. If she can't see that, she will be the one that loses-BIG TIME!

HUGS-

TM remember the ad nauseum saying 'actions speak louder than words? It would be good to keep it in mind. How many people do you know that always seem to talk about wanting to be something and yet never take the necessary steps to do it?

Your actions in accepting her decision to leave IS being noticed by her and she is not feeling any pressure from you. It's been said that courage is not the absence of fear but the facing of our fears, and just maybe she is seeing in you, a courage that she had not noticed before. Remember that courageous people, are people that are not only admired but they are very attractive as well in the eyes of most people.

Somebody here (I forget who it was) said that Love is not a feeling but an action, and I agree because a person can tell his/her spouse how much s/he loves him/her and yet his/her actions speak differently.

Keep up the great work.

Ok Coffeeman, Kily and anyone else brave enough to jump on my sinking ship.....

Just got off the phone with wife. She said she wanted to go apartment shopping this weekend, would I come with her. I said if she wanted me to of course I would. I asked what we were going to do with the kids, she said maybe we could tell them tomorrow and they could go with us.

So, I go from holding hands yesterday for the first time in 3 months, to telling the kids we're separating tomorrow. I Love her to death, but I just don't understand her....

I also made mention that I don't have an IC appointment this week, now I'm going every 2 weeks. She said that was great, must be the IC could see improvement, she said she could.

I'm really not feeling anything right now, not sure if that's good or bad.

TM94: My friend...your wife is following the EXACT SAME PATH mine did. Look at my profile below. Go back and read what was posted on my threads during that time (last August). you are roughly on the same time line as we were. But you seem to be doing a lot better job of not LBing than I did, which is why this has probably gone on for me longer than it should have.

I too helped my wife move into her apartment. At first, I didnt know it but she was doing this to have OM fulltime. but, inside her deep down, this was her cry to get time...time to sort this all out. Remember, your wife has the OM right now, in whatever capacity. And she has you. one thing about sitting on the fence...it is VERY painful to the butt! So, let her go to the apartment. Let her have the time. try to help her find something on a 3 month lease (it will probably take that long for her to work through things).

The funny (not really ha-ha funny!) thing was that during the first couple of weeks she was in her apartment, she missed me and the kids dearly. She felt VERY lonely. Even with all of my LBs, and even with having OM fulltime.

If I had just stuck to a good Plan A, as the OM "TRIED" to fill my shoes entirely, then I am sure my wife would have been home in November (again...look back at my posts). But my LBs caused a worsening in late October, and it wasnt until I got my act together in December that we reached the point in late January of her finding herself and coming out of the fog.

So, help her. Help put the stuff on her walls. One of the things I did was take this huge picture frame that allows for about 25 pictures...and I inserted pictures of all of us from different times in our lives. It is on the wall in her living room, and she looks at it everyday (OM had to look at my smiling picture too when he was over <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ). When she has to look at all of the stuff you shared with her...with pictures of you, her and the kids...with the stuff on the walls being put up by you (I even put her bathroom together, with the shower curtain and everything...there was no way she could go a day without seeing something about me...she has admitted this helped wear down her fog), she will remember you.

While being the good guy, and letting her figure this out (and at the same time letting OM be someone to her that he CAN NEVER BE!), she will come out of the fog as my wife has. Again, read my threads. You are about 6-7 months behind me. Dont make the same mistakes! you have an opportunity to learn from me and to turn yours around much quicker.

I see great things for you and your wife! She is showing you that it is still there, but she is still lost in the fog. Time for a little psychological operations (Plan A), where TM94 looks like gold...and OM looks like...well, the OM <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

In His arms.

<small>[ March 06, 2003, 03:20 PM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

MM,
Thank you for your response. I've been following your threads from afar for the past few months and I see unbelievable things happening for you. I truly hope that we will end up back together. Last night we were talking and she said she just doesn't know me anymore, doesn't know how to act around me or what she should/shouldn't say because I've changed so much in the past few months.

She said she hoped everything went through with the house and I would be able to buy it because if she moved back she would want to move back to our house. We talked about that for a while and without commiting to a time frame she said in a year we should know if it would be good for her to move back in, or if we should move on. I asked for 6 months, she said she thought a year, so I left it alone with no pressure on her.

I want to help her move, and part of me wants to let her take whatever she wants from the house. The other part of me says this is her choice and she needs to do/buy everything on her own. I'm still struggling with that one.

As far as the OM goes I don't believe there has been any contact since a few days after I talked to him. He pretty much told her she was nuts and didn't want anything to do with her. What happens when she moves out I don't know, but I have no evidence of ANY contact since that day, and I've done a VERY good job at snooping and pooping.

Again, thank you and I will begin looking at the beginning of your long journey.

TM94:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Last night we were talking and she said she just doesn't know me anymore, doesn't know how to act around me or what she should/shouldn't say because I've changed so much in the past few months."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay, what changes? Did she elaborate? Are they changes for the better? Worse? Start here TM94. She is TRYING to show you where you might have gone wrong, your part in this. In her own way, she has not given up and is offering you a little something to work with here, to see what you will do with it. Find out what these changes are or were. If they were bad changes, then start working on them!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"She said she hoped everything went through with the house and I would be able to buy it because if she moved back she would want to move back to our house. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Another KEY point here! She has not resolved herself that this is over. She just doesn't know how to get it back to where it should be. There is a HUGE difference between the two. LISTEN TO HER! Don't justify, defend, whine, attack, argue. etc…just listen. In the psycho babble coming from WSs is the REAL truth of what is bothering them. Find it…and you will find the keys to opening her up again, and her finding her way back home.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "We talked about that for a while and without committing to a time frame she said in a year we should know if it would be good for her to back in, or if we should move on. I asked for 6 months, she said she thought a year, so I left it alone with no pressure on her." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Throw away the calendar. It means nothing. I will bet that if you figure out how to be a better TM94, and at the same time not LB, you wont have to ask her to come back…she will on her own. And a lot sooner than you may expect!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "I want to help her move, and part of me wants to let her take whatever she wants from the house. The other part of me says this is her choice and she needs to do/buy everything on her own. I'm still struggling with that one." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and you will continue to struggle with it. DO NOT DO AS I DID! Try to keep from being bitter and vindictful! It will only make things worse and lengthen how long this will go on. You may want to give her what she "deserves." But if you do the opposite, you will find that 1. it will be more effective to saving your marriage; and 2. It will actually "punish" her more by being this way. She will expect you to attack. When you don't, it will frustrate her. How can you fight with someone that wont fight?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "As far as the OM goes I don't believe there has been any contact since a few days after I talked to him. He pretty much told her she was nuts and didn't want anything to do with her. What happens when she moves out I don't know, but I have no evidence of ANY contact since that day, and I've done a VERY good job at snooping and pooping." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't worry about it. My guess is once she moves out, some sort of relationship will try to start up again, if it ever ended. DO NOT GET IN THE WAY & DO NOT GET CAUGHT SNOOPING AND POOPING! Let it run its course. Really, you don't need to know. It will only hurt you. You will only need to know when she decides to come back, in order to verify her intentions and truthfulness. Right now, expect the worse and hope for the best!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "Again, thank you and I will begin looking at the beginning of your long journey." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You have also been there with me! Don't take my long journey. Learn the shortcuts and don't make the same mistakes. Your wife is already starting off better than mine. She is showing you how to get back. She is showing you she still cares, even if she is trying to get away. Take this and run with it. Work on YOU, and she WILL notice!

In His arms.

<small>[ March 07, 2003, 11:46 AM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

TM-

I found it really interesting to see that she is formulating the "back up plan". What this tells me is:

"I want my freedom from my life for a time. In a year, I will be back to resume where we left off, and I want you to accept me then as if nothing has happened.

This is SUCH a WS attitude. It's funny, but I still am in disbelief that my life is so destroyed. I thought that he would be there and willing to work on things based on his attempts to change my mind. It took a lot for me to let my real feelings surface, and when I did, he was gone.

Just keep this in mind when you're ready to throw in the towel. She isn't saying it's over, she is saying something different through the fog.

I too echo MortarMan and Kily's comments regarding your WW's change of heart from a 'it's all over between us' to a 'if we get back together'. It's a sign that she doesn't see a future with OM, and that your changes have made her reconsider the wisdom of ending the marriage. Your plan is definetely having an effect on her, but you've got to keep those emotions of yours under total control for they could undermine all your efforts to save your marriage.

Listen to MortarMan because he's been where you are right now.

MM,
==================================================
Okay, what changes? Did she elaborate? Are they changes for the better? Worse? Start here TM94. She is TRYING to show you where you might have gone wrong, your part in this. In her own way, she has not given up and is offering you a little something to work with here, to see what you will do with it. Find out what these changes are or were. If they were bad changes, then start working on them!
==================================================
She didn’t elaborate, but she has comment on a few things:
1)I seem happier now than I have been in a VERY long time.
2)My sexual views have changed. This one has her stumped; she’s not sure what is “acceptable” and what I don’t like anymore. If you’ve followed my story at all you can see where we have strayed VERY far and she’s not sure if my recent changes are real, or if I will slip back into the old me.
3)I help out more around the house.
4)I spend more time with the kids. For so long I’ve felt that she wasn’t happy so it was my job to make her happy, and she would make the kids happy. I’m beginning to realize that can’t happen, and I’ve lost a lot of time with my children.
5)I am going to church again. I haven’t really gone to church in about 10 years. We would go every once in a while, but I would always find something wrong with where we went. She used to be the one that wanted to go to church, after a while she just gave up. Now the kids and I go every Sunday, and she’s the one that doesn’t go.

==================================================
In the psychobabble coming from WSs is the REAL truth of what is bothering them. Find it…and you will find the keys to opening her up again, and her finding her way back home.
==================================================
She says she can’t live the life we were living any more, she has to do something for herself, and she has to make something of herself. For the past 10 years she’s followed me around while the Marine Corps bounced me around the globe. She feels like she has nothing to show, she’s accomplished nothing, etc. Now she’s going back to school, loosing weight, etc. so she can say she’s accomplished something. She has always been very independent, I think now she’s asserting her independence and trying to find something meaningful in the world. Apparently she thinks a 14-year relationship; 9-year marriage and 2 kids aren’t meaningful. I don’t really know, that’s just my interpretation.

==================================================
She will expect you to attack. When you don't, it will frustrate her. How can you fight with someone that wont fight? ==================================================
So, should I let her take whatever she wants from the house? Then that leaves me with nothing. I’m not going to be vindictive or spiteful (I don’t think) but I can’t “enable” her either. Make sense?

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Work on YOU, and she WILL notice!
=================================================
That’s what I’m trying to do. So far it looks like it’s working, but then again I don’t know because she’s still leaving. Either way, I know I am better off and I am happier now than I have been for a long time. It took this HUGE wake up call for me to realize how messed up I really was.

Kily,
=================================================
Just keep this in mind when you're ready to throw in the towel. She isn't saying it's over, she is saying something different through the fog.
==================================================
I’m trying, and it is getting easier. But I still have some days where I have a hard time dealing with things. Right now I’m doing fine, but I can’t say how I will be when she finally moves out. I’d like to think I’ll be ok, but I’m worried and scared and I don’t want to screw up. But, at the same time I feel like I can’t just mope around and wait for her to make up her mind either. O-well, I guess I’ll cross that bridge when I get to it.

CoffeeMan,
=================================================
Your plan is definitely having an effect on her, but you've got to keep those emotions of yours under total control for they could undermine all your efforts to save your marriage.
==================================================
I KNOW! This is what worries me. Since I started taking the AD’s my moods have pretty much stabilized and I’m able to sleep again at night. But like I said to Kily, I don’t know how I’m going to be when she leaves. And God forbid, if she starts dating I think I’ll loose my mind. But once again, I’ll cross that bridge when I get to it. Maybe I’ll surprise myself, who knows.

Thank you all for taking the time. MM & Kily I know you are both going through your own difficult times and I appreciate the time your taking to help me through mine. Coffeeman, I welcome your wisdom and experience. I've often seen you post on others threads and wished you would take a look at mine, thank you for taking the time to do so.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But once again, I’ll cross that bridge when I get to it. Maybe I’ll surprise myself, who knows.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">TM.

Almost all of us that have gone thru the ordeal of betrayal, have said before d-day that if our spouse ever had an affair, s/he would be out the door faster than the door would close behind them. And yet, that was not the case and we surprised ourselves with wanting to save our marriages.

We find out who we truly are, by how we react at those little curve balls that life throws at us when we least expect them. After all, there are no drills in life to practice how we will react.

But it is indeed heartwarming to know that most of us, react not with hatred but with love in the face of undescribable pain.

For what it's worth to you, you are much more stronger and knowledgeable than at the beginning of your ordeal. And if you've been able to achieve this amount of progress in such short amount of time, just think of the possibilities later on. I tell you this not to give you false hope but for you to appreciate your accomplishments.

No matter what happens to your marriage, you will be a winner in the end.

TM,
I can't add anything to the help you are getting.
Just wanted to say keep working on it, and don't give up. You can see from MM's story that it takes a while.

SS

CoffeeMan,
Thanks, for the words of encouragement. Your right, I never thought I would go through something like this, but look at me now. I know whatever happens I am better today than I was 4 months ago, and in 4 months I hope to be better than I am today.

SS,
Thanks for the encouragement. I know when I started this whole journey I couldn't imagine going through the pain for this long. Now that I'm this far along it's getting easier to deal with (most of the time) and easier to accept that there is no quick ending. It will take time.

<small>[ March 07, 2003, 03:19 PM: Message edited by: TM94 ]</small>

Ok, here's the weekend update, unfortunately it's not a good one. No apartment hunting this weekend. Everyone told her she was looking too early, come around about a week before she is ready to move in. So, I went and looked at bikes on Saturday, found the perfect bike, and for only $4,000 over my budget!

Last night she discovered some paperwork on spyware that I had purchased. So to say it's taken a turn for the worse is more than likely an understatement. I also told her that I had the phone tapped for a while, now she wants the tapes. I knew all of this would come, but now I'm not sure how to handle it.

In light of recent events she now wants to move further away, at least 30 miles or more. She says I'm stalking her and she can't trust me. We haven't been able to sit down and talk about it, so I haven't been able to explain myself and why I did what I did. I don't know if it will help or only hurt more.

Yet another side note; I got an e-mail from MIL this morning. She said she doesn't want to stick her nose in our business, they love me, and they still and always will think of me as a son. I haven't responded yet, not sure exactly how to take it.

Well let me have it....

<small>[ March 10, 2003, 12:25 PM: Message edited by: TM94 ]</small>

You should say you are sorry, and I also recommend telling her that it just shows how frightened you were and how hurt over what was happening. Plead temporary insanity because you were in such emotional pain, and say you won't do it again ( but then you can't)

I don't know how your conversations have gone but it may be a good time to ask for 6 months to show you have changed and a chance to see that she can love you again. Get on your knees, be dramatic if she goes in for that stuff. I am learning to read my W and somedays that works, some it doesn't.

You are getting things pretty good, but as we have said, she has the freedom to leave if she wants to leave, all you can do is be nice to her.

There is a chance that if she leaves, she will date and it may be a year or two until finds out that every one has faults and she may want to keep you and yours. You may not be there by then. If she does actually leave, you may want to do a really good plan A for a few months and then go to B.

As you can see, it is by far the best if she stays. That's why I say do almost anything to get her to stay - if you can. I would probably get on my knees and say " I'll do anything to get you to stay here for 6 months and give me a chance to win your love again."
She has already said she is leaving, it couldn't hurt.

If she says no, make a point of telling her that you love her and if she changes her mind you would welcome her back with open arms. Often they spend time trying to prove they made the right choice and don't want to admit error. Anything you can do to show your love and forgiveness will make it easier. You want her to realize that the past is the past and all you want right now is for things to work out for the two of you.

Still praying for you.

SS

SS,
I don't want to check up on her anymore. In fact I haven't in nearly 2 months. I'm not sure that she believes me, or that she understands why I did it in the first place. I guess only time will tell. She has said that she see's a "Little" change in me, and that the AD's are working well.

=================================================
I don't know how your conversations have gone but it may be a good time to ask for 6 months to show you have changed and a chance to see that she can love you again. Get on your knees, be dramatic if she goes in for that stuff.
==================================================
I have asked, and she has replied with a resounding NO. As for getting on my knee's, she's really not into that dramatic stuff, she looks at as weakness. But, I'll play it by ear and see what happens.

=================================================
There is a chance that if she leaves, she will date and it may be a year or two until finds out that every one has faults and she may want to keep you and yours. You may not be there by then. If she does actually leave, you may want to do a really good plan A for a few months and then go to B.
==================================================
I really don't know how I will react when she leaves, especially now that she's talking about moving further away. I guess that's a bridge that I will have to cross when I get to it. Honestly, I don't know if I'm strong enough for a Plan B. But who knows, I've surprised myself so far, maybe I will again. Right now 2 years sounds like a VERY long time, but then again these past few months have flown by, so we'll see.

=================================================
Often they spend time trying to prove they made the right choice and don't want to admit error.
==================================================
Wow, you hit that nail on the head. I've said before that I'm not sure that she really wants to leave, but she feels that she has to because she has already told people she was. She is VERY stubborn and getting her to even consider something she has done was wrong is like pulling teeth from a chicken.

Thanks for the reply, I guess we'll see what happens. She said she didn't want to talk about it, but she did want the tapes I've made so she can destroy them. For some reason I'm holding on to them, not sure why exactly. I know that I can't use them legally, so I'm not sure why I'm being resistive.

tm-

road bike or street bike? 4G's is NOTHING when it comes to a great bike....

As far as the sitch goes, I agree that you should apologize and ahow her you are sincere by giving her the tapes....why hang on to them? The damage is done, and they are only bad reminders....I see the action as a sign of the new you.

Stay the course and try to encourage her to do what is right for her. While doing this, gently remind her of what you feel and want in a non-demanding way.

You are doing well.

Thanks Kily,
I'm looking at a Harley Sportster right now, it's not my "Dream Bike", but it's a good starter.

Last night we didn't talk about it at all, she was tired and had to go in to work at 11pm. She was affectionate though, not what I expected. No coldness, she even cuddled me in bed before she left for work.