***PLEASE SEE MY REPLY TO ALL OF YOUR MESSAGES 1-5, thanks***

Hey I hope you can help give me some piece of mind here because I'm having a real hard time with this...

My wife (of 4 months so far, been together for almost 6 years) went out with some friends this weekend out of town for a bachlorette party while I treated my best friend at his bachelor party. I found out very recently that when they were out she got drunk with her friends (which she shouldn't have gotten drunk to begin with knowing she loses inhibitions) and she ended up dancing with some guys and then later were making out with a couple of them back at the table they were at. The designated driver failed to speak up and say anything (THANKS!). She said the next morning she woke up feeling like utter crud and couldn't believe she did this. I thought something was up by the way she was acting when I got home in the evening. She didn't want to bring it up because she was ashamed and didn't want me to know. After finding out pretty much all her friends (who are single) were doing the same along with her (except the DD) I wanted to throw my fist through a wall.

I love my wife so much and I know she isn't the person to go out and do this. Alcohol lets her guard down and makes her very vunerable. Her best friend was supposed to watch out for her and make sure she didn't get out of line. Ultimately my wife's at fault for this happeneing and being so STUPID, but I am VERY disappointed in trusting my wife's best friend who was getting in on some action herself.

How do I recover from this? We have a great life together and do not fight at all and have never had any breakups or problems in our relationship.

Was this considered cheating even though she says she didn't mean for that to happen and it was just plain dumb thinking on her part admittedly and sincerely?

Was this just a stupid one night out thing that I shouldn't worry about anymore after I am through talking to her and after she's done talking to her friends explaining that there's more than one life this affects?

I'm very hurt right now and am having a tough time with this, as this has never in my life happened to me.

Please help me. Your input would be greatly appreciated. I would never do anything to hurt my wife. I'm not a big drinker and am always of a clear mind to watch out for her. I just don't think I can trust her with her girls nights out anymore with this particular group anymore until they can prove otherwise.

Thanks,

Ben

<small>[ March 03, 2003, 06:52 PM: Message edited by: Spirit of Ben ]</small>

Well, a big mistake would be to continue on as if this did not happen. I'm going to assume that you are NOT a conflict avoider.... is that correct?

Make your wife feel safe enough to really share with you what happened, what went wrong, what she plans to do to protect herself from doing things like this again in the future.

How can you make it safe for her to do this?

Spirit,

I agree with what Pepper has said to you, but I think YOU need to stop and do some thinking AND then you and your W need to really really talk.

One, this isn't a surprise. Why? You knew enough to asks W's BF to look out for her. You know she loses inhibitions when she drinks. You knew she was going to drink, AND SO DID SHE.

Two, she apparently uses the alcohol to do what she pleases and then pleads innocent when she sobers up.

Three, in case you haven't guessed it she has really issues with alcohol and from the sounds of it figuring out if she is married.

Until you admit these things to yourself, you have no hope of this not happening again. Next, if you are going to have a good and long marriage your W needs to face these FACTS. Alcohol is no excuse for bad behavior especially if it is KNOWN that she seems to do this when she drinks.

Please listen to her, and approach her as Pepper has suggested, but also face the reality of this situation and see if she is willing to do the same. Then see about meeting each others needs so that she doesn't feel the need to party and kiss all of the boys and shoot out the lights.

God Bless,

JL

Ben~

I think rather than wondering if this was *cheating* I think you should concentrate on how you feel about it. If you feel like you were cheated on (given the information at hand) then you need to address it as such. If you feel like your marital bonds have been trampled then you need to address it.

I am an ex-WS and I think you need to address the underlying issues immediately. Do not write this off as a mistake and then sweep it under the rug. I had more than one affair on my husband. My behavior was VERY much like your wife's in the beginning and then it escalated into full blown affairs.

The fact is, if your wife KNEW she loses inhibitions while drinking then she shouldn't have gotten toasted. She knew this going into it, right? Ben, I cannot speak for your wife, but I can speak from my own experience. GOD, she sounded like me and some of the things I used to do when I first got married. For me, I would have used the *I was drunk* excuse and I would have shown remorse but I didn't find what I needed in what I was doing. I didn't realize healthier ways of getting my needs met.

I'm not trying to scare you, I'm really not, I'm trying to make you aware that even if the two of you never fight there some issues here that need to be addressed.

I can understand WHY you are hurt.

and I know she isn't the person to go out and
do this.

But she did go out and do this knowing that alcohol affects her in such ways. She knew before she even took the first drink how her inhibitions would be lost.

Her best friend was supposed to watch out for her and make sure she didn't get out of line.

Your wife should be watching out for herself. Getting drunk and *losing it* does NOT alleviate her culpability in this.

Ultimately my wife's at fault for this happeneing and being so STUPID, but I am VERY disappointed in trusting my wife's best friend who was getting in on some action herself.

Here are my honest thoughts on this, Ben. Your wife's friend is a *moot* point. Some friends will encourage unhealthy behaviors and dub it as support. She is your wife's friend, yes? Why should she stop what she's doing to care-take and baby-sit a grown/married woman? That is why it is EXTREMELY important that you look to your wife and her behaviors and leave the rest of it out. Do not leave any room for the blame to shift (or YOUR focus to shift) from your wife to her friend. Do NOT let your feelings for her friend be a diversion to your WIFE'S issue!!!

It may be just *dumb thinking* on her part and she may be sincerely remorseful for what she did....BUT....I cannot stress to you enough...do NOT let this slide. Address it and work through it NOW.

Ben, I'm saying this with the UTMOST sincerity and compassion...

I just don't think I can trust her with her girls nights out anymore with this particular group anymore until they can prove otherwise.

.....THEY are NOT the PROBLEM and THEY do not have any responsibility in this. It is not necessary for THEM to prove anything to you, it's up to your wife. I cannot stress to you how important it is that you remove the notion that they are somehow responsible for *watching* your wife and policing her behavior.

I say all of this because I know, I was there at one point in my life. I was going to have my problems and my issues regardless of the friends I hung around with.

I suggest that you go to the Emotional Needs Questionnaire (here on the MB website) and print one off for yourself and print one for her. Fill them out and then exchange them. She may have needs that you aren't recognizing and SHE may not even recognize them, herself, but the ENQ will give her a starting point to identify them (as well as help you!).

I'm really sorry that you are going through all of this <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> .

selket

selket

alcohol is one of the most used excuses in this type of cheating.but i feel unless she was passed out on the floor she did have some idea of what was going on.

i can only assume that she told you what happened.if so that is a good sign.cheating and telling on yourself imediatley shows remorse and admitting what was done was wrong.

she will need to understand that lady's night out will have to wait for a long time to accour again.and if she knows alcohol causes her control problems then she will need to learn to control alcohol.

"Was this considered cheating even though she says she didn't mean for that to happen and it was just plain dumb thinking on her part admittedly and sincerely?"

unfortunately thats how cheating is best described....."dumb thinking"

the only positive side to this is ...atleast she didn't go to the club with intentions of being with another man.then go back again and again.thats where deception comes into play.doing something you know was dumb and not mentioning it..i call this covering your A$#.its when you do something dumb and go back for more that is a problem.

i know your hurt.your wife did something you never imagined.but this can be repaired.and you can move on.we all make mistakes.thats how we learn.

you said you have had a great life together,so dont change that.you still will have a great life together.

you proably wont understand this but i can only wish my wife just had one night stand.

Spirit (I usually use initials, but I can't use yours!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ):

I agree with Pepper and JL, here.

Something else to think about. We're all at various levels of personal maturity. I sometimes make the excuse (in jest) that I'm still working on maturing (and I turn 50 tomorrow! Pepper and JL, I'm catching up with you!). I don't know how old you and your W are, but it doesn't really matter. Some of us don't mature in certain areas until really late in life. My W used alcohol as an excuse for the first time she was physical with her OM 12 years ago. And many people, even after making a mistake like that, don't learn from it unless they're caught and confronted. That might sound worse than I intend it to sound, and you can certainly smooth it over during the actual "confrontation" (really a talk), but you very definitely need to do this and come to some understandings and GROW from the experience... ...or it will happen again.

Partying isn't all that fun if it's "deliberately" allowed to get out of control. Alcohol isn't any fun if it's abused. One thing that comes with maturity is figuring out that it's entirely possible to enjoy the company of friends, and even loud music if that's your thing, without losing control. In fact, it's more fun to stay in control.

Take care,
♥ Qfwfq

She cheated on you after only married 4 months and you must deal with the issue immediately and not go into denial about it. You need to read Selket's post and reread it. She made excellent points.

What do you think the reaction of your new wife would be if you told her you went to a strip club for a boys nights out and got drunk and then went off to a booth and made out with some of the women? Of course your wife was cheating. She was making out with other men. What is so hard to figure out? The excuse of being drunk is so very typical. If you are allergic to peanuts you don't go out and eat peanuts. She apparently cannot deal with drinking and then goes out drinking and making out with other men. Do not blame this on her friends. She is not a little girl but a woman who has made a committment to you and married you.

What disturbs me is that she does not take responsibility for her actions rather she is blaming it on the drinking which she voluntarily engaged in and then said all of the other women were doing it also. You need to deal with this problem very seriously or in the future she will get drunk somewhere and not come home until the next morning. In short, yes she cheated on you so now what and how are you both going to deal with this issue? This is very very serious.

Hi again. Thank you for your wonderful thoughts and words of wisdom.

To answer back at some of the statements made... YES, it is ultimately her fault. I cannot place blame on anyone, but her. This I know and it did take me a while of trying to clear my head.

The reason I trusted my W's BF is because she was responsible for her bachlorette night and she did not drink and was great with her. She was the DD and was intending to keep her in line, so I assumed she was to be the DD on this party, but little did I know it was some passive unconfrontational gal who doesn't watch out for anyone (that's besides the point). My W's BF basically assured me the same again, but turns out she was one of the party animals too.

I actually spoke to her over the phone recently today and she called up her friends to have them call her back today and she's going to explain that she will not drink on the nights out with the ladies. She admitted her problem with not being able to control herself with alcohol, so that's a good thing, realizing your problem and making the step to fix it. I know alcohol is no excusable reason for anything. She still did regardless and she knows it's no excuse, just REAL DUMB thinking, or lack of.

As a couple we are still young in our 20's and each have much to learn in our lives. I think that we need to talk and see what it is that needs to be filled in this myserious void she needs filled that I never knew before. I think in doing that we can find more fun ways to enjoy ourselves than to her enjoy herself only when she has a drink in hand. I personally get an ultimate high off my friends just in the times we share and laughs we all have. I've had only 3-4 drinks my whole life (HAHA!)... I'm partial to coca-cola myself.

I think the best way to do this is confront it head on and talk about it and not pretend it never happened.

I think you all made excellent points in your replies and it really helped in the reassurance.

I'm still very upset and distrot, but I think we can work it out. Se knows what she did was stupid and doesn't think anything bad of me. She was just being stupid. STUPID, DUMB and IDIOTIC. Now she has to live with that and hopefully she's learned from it, because there likely will not be a third chance. This shouldn't even happen once, but some people desserve a second chance.

Ben

<small>[ March 03, 2003, 07:13 PM: Message edited by: Spirit of Ben ]</small>

Aaah, Ben~

Your a Coke man? I bet I could drink you under the table with some Kool-Aid!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Keep this in mind....I was in my VERY EARLY 20's when I started acting out. By the time I was 24 I was in a *committed* affair.

Yes, it's GOOD that she addressed the alcoholism. Very good indeed. However, the alcoholism is only a mask. It is NOT THE problem. Her age should certainly be taken into consideration and being young and trying to get a true sense of self is hard and it can/does consist of a series of mistakes. What I'm trying to help you see is that the issue goes deeper than the alcohol. I promise it does. She KNEW before she ever took the first drink how the alcohol affects her and she drank anyway...so.....what? So she could do what she wanted to do? I agree with the above poster that said that unless she was passed out on the floor she KNEW what she was doing.

Please don't think that *problems* will be gone once the alcohol is out of the picture.

Through my life I've been through some alcohol binges, drug use, and sexual addiction. Stopping those things was ONLY the first step. I had to take care of the issues that led me to USE those things in the first place.

Good luck to you, Ben...to you and your wife.

selket

Hi Ben,

From the female point of view, I was a wild woman in my day, but I was *never* so ripped I didn't know what was going on, especially with men in the room. I would do more than having her promise not to drink and telling her friends as much. This is destined to fail, IMHO. That places the responsibility on them. She needs to get to AA and work this out for good. If she can't handle her liquor, she shouldn't drink, again IMHO. BTW, I don't drink anymore, either. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Best Wishes!

Spirit---
Sorry for this situation. IMHO, this is what I would call an actual "mistake". Sometimes people refer to long, drawn out affairs as mistakes. I call that a choice.
What your wife did seems like a mistake. BUT not one that she should EVER make again.
Read the books. His needs Her needs. FIRST!!!!!!!!!!
Do the Emotional needs questionairs. Do the Lovebust one too.
PROTECT YOURSELVES!!!!!
I have been so drunk that my memory is foggy. I have been so drunk that I have done things I am ashamed of. I have been so drunk that my friends or husband have told me something I did and I had ABSOLUTLY no memory of it.
I also quit drinking.

Talk to her. Do the questionairs.
hoe that helps
tsc

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by tsc:
<strong> IMHO, this is what I would call an actual "mistake". Sometimes people refer to long, drawn out affairs as mistakes. I call that a choice.
What your wife did seems like a mistake. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would not consider this a mistake. Yes, she cheated. But, in the grand scheme of things, I think this is one you can get over. As others have said, probably the bigger issue here is your wife's drinking. Unchecked, the next "mistake" could be more than kissing.....or could be a car accident that kills her or someone else.
Michael

Welcome to MB. I think it was a wise step to come here. I'd say you should treat your wife's drunken behaviour at the bachelorette party as cheating.

Take it from a woman who used to get drunk herself and use it as an excuse for a poor sense of judgement so I could fool around with another man. This was my excuse for all three of my A's. It was like a license for me to misbehave. Really, looking back, I think I just wished my H and I were closer, that I was more important to him, that he was less controlling, etc. Instead of communicating that to him effectively, I sought out the attention of other men. NOT SMART I know. But only hindsight is 20/20.

We foolishly swept my first "A" (I kissed a common friend of ours on a few different occasions) under the carpet. My H forgave me, perhaps too easily. He listened when I told him not to bring it up. A year passes, and I fooled around with a coworker, a few times (still no sex); I am forgiven again, my H again listens to me about not bringing it up. Another year passes, and I slept with my H's BF. All three incidents included alcohol, it was like my permission to ignore my conscience. See the pattern here? I'm not suggesting your wife will ever be as dumb as I was, but if you don't address this behaviour now as a serious problem, things CAN escalate.

Sit down and take this one seriously. Talk with your wife. Try talking with her about her needs, and your needs, and see if either of you feel like there are some needs that aren't being met. Maybe try filling out the EN questionnaire on this website.

Learn from my mistakes if you can.

Jen

<small>[ March 04, 2003, 08:13 AM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

Hi Ben - it's not appropriate for a married woman to go out, in that environment, with a bunch of single women. Likewise, it was probably not appropriate for you to be at a bachelor party. Both are basically events for singles, with their own kind of peer pressure. You did not say much about your bachelor party, but presumably there was at least "looking" on your part. It's not harmless.

This is not to say you both have to give up all of your old friends just because you are married, but you ought to give up the ones who won't support your marriage. Her/your single friends no longer share the same lifestyle, and they don't have so much in common any more. This is a choice that you both need to consider, case-by-case and activity-by-activity.

Another thing to consider, is that you are only married a few months, after several years of dating. Did you live together beforehand? Getting married was a big change. Possibly there is buyer's remorse going on, reality is setting in, or some other underlying issues might have come up.

Best of luck. A lot of this happened early in my marriage, I went along with it and trusted my wife, look where I am now ... And if divorce was inevitable, better to have done it back then. But I don't want to be so pessimistic about your marriage.

- Tom

PS - just reread the stuff about alcohol's role in this. If she is truly an alcoholic, then it's a second issue to contend with. But is it just an excuse? Alcohol can reduce inhibitions. It won't put thoughts into her head. Either those urges were already there, or her friends put them there by encouragement or example. So I would not focus just on the alcohol.

Hi and welcome to MBers! What a great thing that you found this site so early in your marriage and so early on into your wife's unfaithful behavior.

She has given you the gift of being honest with you. Make sure you are appreciative of that gift and treat her with kindness and respect. Yes, you are going to be angry at her thoughtless behavior, but be careful to express your anger in appropriate ways. You want her to feel safe enough to come to you with her problems.

When married (or committed) people go out on bachelor or bachelorette parties it is a situation ripe for disaster. They are almost always given to huge excesses of drink and sexual inappropriatness. As an aside, bachelor parties are a horrible way to begin a marriage--one "last night of debauchery before entering the dreadfully dull landscape of marriage." It shows how we view marriage in our culture--not as the place where people can grow and learn and become the best person they can be--but a prison that keeps us from others.

Some of the best bachelor parties I have heard of were:

* the one for my brother-in-law where they played golf all day and then went out for an expensive meal

* a similar one for a friend of ours where the extravagence wasn't how much they could drink and mess around but that they played Spyglass and Pebble Beach golf clubs

* I went to one where we rented a limo (just the ladies) and drank ourselves stupid and got driven home. We were safe and there were no men available. (The bride had warned us that if we hired a stripper or did something equally as tacky she was going to leave.)

My husband skipped his because his fraternity brothers scheduled it for the night before the wedding after we had both asked them to do it a week before. I'll admit he didn't like skipping it too much and I wound up having a rather heated discussion with the best man who called my soon-to-be husband names about being "whipped" and called me names that rhyme with "witch." But my previous experiences with bachelor parties warned me that they weren't good ways to begin a marriage:

* an uncle of mine was nearly killed driving home from his bachelor party and he and my aunt got married in the intensive care unit and she attended their reception alone.

* a friend of ours barfed on the priest's shoes on the altar at his wedding and was still so drunk from the night before that he has no memory of they wedding

I am not Catholic, but Catholics call things like this "an occassion of sin." In short it is playing with fire, putting yourself in a situation when things are almost predictably going to get out of control.

MJ

Hello again, everybody.

I read more of your posts and I really appreciate all of your concern. I have been to a lot of sites (different themed forums not relating to marriage) that just have people with nonsense BS to post and this is the first site I've gone to regarding relationship advice and I've been more than pleased, so I must start out by saying thanks!

Let me address on thing that someone mentioned, which is a more than fair statement which was that I did not make mention of what happened at my friend's bachelor party. I was a DD as well as one of my other best friends. Prior to us taking my friend as best man I asked his wife-to-be what would be appropriate or not since I do respect both halves of the relationship. All my friends wanted to embarass him with a stripper and so that was acceptable, just as long as no touching or tasting of any kind was to go on of the males. I completely agreed with that so we went out to dinner at a restaurant, a center that has arcades and recreational activities like mini-golf and batting cages and then we took him to a strip club and bought him a couple lap dances (which emarassed the h#ll out of him!). At no time did anything happen, as it was in a public place and it was a non-alcoholic place under law and was more than within the boundaries of the wishes of the wife-to-be. As a married man though it is my obligation to never get out of line in participating in any activities that the bachelor is meant to do. I am very committed in my marriage and would never do anything to disrespect the Mrs. I made sure that I told the bachelor that if there was anything he thinks is uncomfortable that we would have no problem taking him out of the place. My friend, the bachelor is very faithful to his wife-to-be and I know this from being a close friend of his since Elementary school, so that's... 14-15 years now. Unfortunately it sounds like the uptight strict wife-to-be sounded like she had done a little worse than what my wife did, but that's a different story and I don't know much about it, nor do I want to know, but I hope she comes out with it because he deserves the truth after being so uptight and being an easily jealous person, she goes and does something horrible. I feel like telling him, but I will not. I just can't butt-in to their personal affairs, but you bet I'll be there for him to listen. Whatever she did, it must have been pretty rotten since it was said to be much worse than my wife's occurrance. My friend has nothing to hide from our fun weekend with my friends. He has 8 sober friends to back that up. We really don't need alcohol to have fun together. Just laughs and good times.

Getting back to MY resolution... Yes, we talked for a long time. She thought what she was doing at the the time was ok, but got a swift kick in the butt the next morning with such regret and emotional pain she felt in doing it. I wanted to talk about it and figure out if I was not doing something right or if she's lost interest in me, or whatever the case. Well long story short we worked it all out, she called her friends and said no more bars and clubs on ladies nights out at all. They'll let the single ladies do their thing and the married ladies do their own thing, as it is not their place to take part in bachlorette activities. She won't be going out and drinking with them anymore unless I am around to limit her, and I will limit her. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> We talked about the relationship and we are still very strong for each other. I need to make sure she knows I love her more often though. We need to get out more and do things just as us together and bond more. I have no problem with that. We are both busy and see each other after work everyday, but we need to do more than being at home and occasionally going to dinner and seeing a movie, which I agree with, but we need to also be reasonable within the boundaries of what we can afford.

We're back though and I am so glad she doesn't want to lose me as I feel the same with her despite my pain of having to going through this awful experience I would like to forget, but will heal in time. This will leave a scar on her for life and I think she learned a VERY tough lesson the hard way.

Thank you everyone.

Ben

P.S. Coca-cola isn't my favorite, but was just using an example. I'll drink Pepsi or Coke. I'm not picky. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

It sounds great what you and your wife have decided.
It sounds like you both understand the problem and will be able to deal with it. Way to go!
There is another issue I would like to address. You owe it to your friend to tell him what happened. Again if the roles were reversed wouldn't you want your friend to tell you. One of the things a good friend who is truly a friend is to be able to tell the truth to a friend. You are doing a disservice to him by withholding this information. How will they ever be able to deal with the problems if he is in the dark. The fact is that you are keeping a secret from a friend who deserves to know what happened. I think a true friend would tell him - Don't you? Wouldn't you want a true friend to tell you?

You bring up a great point, yet I must say that she is going to tell him very soon, I know. I actually don't know enough details to tell him everything, but I do know that she will very soon and I musn't get in the way, and my friend also agreed. He says he wants to hear it from her and not know anything from me even if I know anything, so it's not like I'm trying to withold info from him, but this was at his request.

Hi Ben,

It sounds like you have done all you could for your friend and you are abiding by his wishes. I have to tell you I really feel for this guy. I just can't imagine that here this guy is going to marry this woman and she engages in semi-sexual activities with other men at her bachorlorette party. He must be sick to his stomach. What a humiliation for him to think about on his honeymoon. What a sad story. How can people do that to somebody there are going to marry in the next few days?

I know. It's eating me just as much as it is him. Somehow for her the thought of a revelation after a wedding will be okay because it is the "start of a new life." I think that's so wrong. This needs to be worked out sooner than later. I have a feeling she won't be able to hold her guilt in much longer.

My W's BF is coming over tonight to visit. I don't know what to say to her or even think of her now. Maybe I should just be an @ss and give her a disgusted look and hide in the other room speechless until she leaves. I'm just trying to recover now. I'm doing much better, but man, you have no idea how much lower I think of these other people my W was with this past weekend. That kind of repair will be a long one. Since I know my wife well that won't take as long. We are already rebuilding and changing things to make us stronger and doing things to fill the void and make us whole. I hope her friends are starting to think a little better about all this though. To even go along with thinking what my wife was doing was okay to begin with is beyond me. Great friends...

<small>[ March 04, 2003, 06:46 PM: Message edited by: Spirit of Ben ]</small>