I've reached something of an anniversary, I guess. 9 months of Plan A, followed by 9 months of separation and pretty solid Plan B for quite some time now.

In fact, I've grown quite satisfied that I've taken the best possible course, and my feelings for my WW have been wilting with time - as is part of the "plan." Thinking of her with someone else in the future (no present OM as far as I can tell) isn't heartbreaking... me thinking of me with someone else who treats me well, have fun together, no shared baggage, etc. - now that's starting to seem rather appealing!

Anyhow, I realize I'm still married. I also realize that maybe Plan B has allowed my W - a classic conflict avoider - to "get away" with what she really would prefer in many ways: to remain married and have those benefits, while having the benefits of singlehood too.

It seems the "cone of silence" can both help and hurt in some cases... one example is that recently I did open the door to finding out where we're at - what's her plan, if any? I approached it with a new attitude, not yet shown - a mix of "I'm ready for anything" and "Whatever!" - but still kind, no demands, etc. Her response was that she wanted to reply to some of my points - this was when she thought I was talking about Dv. When I responded and clarified a bit - that I was encouraging her to set a stake in the ground (and that I wasn't personally planning to file - yet) - then suddenly with the threat reduced, she fell silent again. "If I stick my head in the sand, it'll go away."

Another example is from back in December - when she seemingly made some effort to retain a lawyer then backed out. And how does she now speak of me? "I do know that I haven't moved past you." What does IC/MC say, having talked with both of us over time? "She's still paralyzed, afraid of making a 'wrong choice'."

In fact, I had a session with IC/MC on Tuesday - down to once in a while now. I talked about what's holding *me* in place right now - trying to decide if I've done all that I could to save the M. I suggested that maybe I should out-and-out ask WW that - and IC/MC wholeheartedly agreed. Yes, it kind of puts her on the spot, but she's very much avoided the hard issues to this point. She's not the type of WW to be out in "spite mode" - she obviously doesn't want that - wants to have a good relationship with me - just not be "tied down to me."

I decided that this should represent a key turning point, and the answer to the question will be very telling, so here's my note to WW:

"Hi,

Having talked to IC/MC yesterday - an occassional checkup - and once again I got the "well why don't you ask her?" line. Fair enough!

I'm trying to figure out what I can do or ask to help either of us out of this situation. One thing I can ask at this point is: "Did I do everything I could to save our marriage?" I mean, when the chips were really down, and besides giving you another "x" years to "figure yourself out," did I show what I could? Rise to an occassion? Miss some unturned stone? And this is one where no answer would allow me to infer a "yes" response. If the answer was "no", you'd have something specific to say, I'm sure. An answer for this - loud or soft - will help me a lot. No need for an immediate reply - by all means give it some consideration."

Maybe not a template Plan B letter, but at this point, WW clearly has no problem being in Plan B, so long as she still "has her choices". Maybe my message to her will help her realize that indeed, I'm pretty much done here, unless she can prove to me that my Plan A/B was somehow flawed. If her reply is that yes, I did do everything I could - then I file with a clear conscience - what more could I do? If her reply is no, then provide some direction for me that means marriage *building*. She knows, though - I have done so much and shown so much love. Sadly, I'm running a tad low now, to say the least.

When I spoke with IC/MC, she said that she'd talk to WW about my question when she sees her this weekend. IC/MC feels that WW has reached the end of her procrastination, also. She indicated that she'll strongly encourage WW to give me an answer.

So it seems I may be reaching a turning point shortly...

<small>[ April 09, 2003, 09:42 AM: Message edited by: J.R. ]</small>

This sounds like good news, when at best is it's mixed news. No one likes to see another marriage end. On the other hand, you seem to have your [censored] together and what could be better than that?

<small>[ March 06, 2003, 09:34 AM: Message edited by: whippit ]</small>

JR,

Good to see you again. I have a question. Why are you sending this letter? It really doesn't ask a question, at best the question is ambigious, and then offers the option of not answering in any foreseeable future. In short it seems a waste of time. Further, it seems YOU are the conflict avoider not her.

She has what she wants, you are the one avoiding addressing the issues and either deciding to move on or work. I realize you cannot force her, but you can make decisions for yourself. You can ask questions for which you really want the answers, in a way that provide the information you seek.

I learned long ago, NEVER ASK A QUESTION FOR WHICH THE EASY ANSWER IS NO. You have done that with your letter. If you want to know if she feels you have done all you could do, then ask her that and request an answer, not in the by and by but now.

She isn't going anywhere, so don't be afraid to seek the information you need to make your decisions.

God Bless,

JL

Hey JR...

You and I are pretty much in the same place except I probably have about 6 months more in the waiting game than you do....

But I get the same babble from my WW about not making the "wrong" decision or making a decision for the "wrong" reasons...

I am with you in your post until you get to the question you want to pose to her and then I guess I am kinda lost.

To me, I thinhk it is a question you need to ask yourself. Yes, your W has her perception of it, but in the final analysis, you are the one you have to satisfy.

In my book, just by hanging in there so long, I think you have done the best you could. Is there something else, well maybe, but as in my case, who knows if there is anything that would ever turn the tide.

You need both oars pulling in the same direction to move the boat.

Hang in there, bud...you sound like you are doing OK.

E

Did you notice this?

Your topic was "Conflict avoiders".
You refered to your W's procrastination.

Then, you say this to your W , "No need for an immediate reply."

Do you see the obvious here?

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

9 months of plan A and 9 months of plan B. So, are you a numerologist? And if so, are you going to put a deadline on her "answer" of 9 more days, 9 more hours, 9 more minutes, and 9 more seconds before you file?

I agree with JL. Look, J. R., You already have your answer: 18 months of waffling. You've worked your beautox off during that time. If you want to talk to this woman who may resemble the woman you M'd some time ago, then freakin' call her and talk to her. I'm a big fan of communication. What have you got to lose? Is she going to hurt you with anything she says or does at this point? You've done such a model plan B that I seriously doubt it. More likely, you'll feel hurt the longer you let this drag on.

Go for it, J.R. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

♥Qfwfq

Well, I received a response from my WW yesterday...

Ha... I guess that's why IC/MC get's paid $120 / hr <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I also think about past advice from SH - along the lines of "have you asked her that?", etc.

The main point being - communication isn't a bad thing. In fact, it may be the only way to arrive at a good spot, like knowing you did everything you could. Why not ask? What a radical concept!

Therein lay my point about conflict avoidance. I can avoid her till the cows come home, but her attitude has been to put her head in the sand - and coming out with my message has forced her to face things moreso. She herself replies:

"But to be honest with you, the reason that I
have not replied is that I'm taking the "I'll just cover my ears, close my eyes and shout LA LA LA" and pretend nothing is wrong" strategy."

Anyhow, the gist of her reply was that indeed, "yes I have done everything practically possible to save our M - she's the one with the problem." She does go into some self-justifications about how she was making progress at various times, and I'd drop a bomb on her like leaving.

She also notes, "Maybe you even hate me now. I know that I deserve it. I'm not sure who you are. How you have evolved." To me, it sounds like testing the water a bit - do I hate her? Could I ever forgive her? Etc.

She also says, "To tell you the truth, I recently started missing some things. Things that we had when we were younger... I never doubted that our victory was certain. Whatever the foe: mosquitoes, cooking supper, installing a shower. This week, I read a little article about the best road trips in North America... My first thought was of how it would be so great to drive them with you. Throw in a bag of licorice and a couple of cats, and you've got heaven."

Sounds promising. She then concludes: "Do I know what I'm going to do? No. But these are my current feelings."

So I got my reply, and I had to be ready for either yes or no. With a "no", I'd have some indication that there was some unturned stone - I've seen SH's advice posted here in the past about telling the WS that you believe there are options - and to have her provide something would have been interesting.

But I knew she'd say "yes" because that's just the way things worked. And I had to be prepared to follow that up with action.

So in my reply, I communicated that I certainly do not hate her - I feel our M has deteriorated, and we're not making progress as is. I explained some of my feelings. I noted how I've come to see certain qualities as being attractive - personal responsibility, etc. - sharing some opinions.

I then note that: "I did get an answer - "yes" - I did do everything I could. And you still don't know what you'll do, despite that. So given that I certainly can't make you do anything and given that I can't remain a spectator in life, there probably are few options left at my disposal.... It was never my preference, never my vision, never my dream - but maybe it's what I need in the absence of anything else."

I concluded with: "I do love you, and believe we could be in love given the right conditions. But I can only do so much alone. If you want to talk, let's talk - no time like the present."

So I guess it's not really Plan B anymore - but something beyond that. We shall see.

J.R.:

Well, that's better, but I still think you could have been more definitive in your answer to her. Where is "whatever it takes"? for example. Meaning SHE needs to be just as willing to hunker down and focus as you do. None of this "licorice and cats heaven" crap (well, it might be, but not without the prerequistes, right?).

Go for it some more,
-Qfwfq

J.R.

How bout an update?

Qfwfq

Last we saw JR, he was talking tough, talking to WW more with a "whatever" attitude than ever before. He wasn't trying to be mean or hurtful, but honest about his feelings, and frankly, a bit proud, letting his WW know that, too.

He also talked about how WW has avoided discussing things, expressing *herself*, what she wants, etc. His reasoning was that she doesn't want to "commit" to a particular course of action that gives up her "freedom".

As it turns out, these e-mail exchanges have happened about once a week or so, and JR has been increasingly - blunt? with WW. Some examples from him:

"your care and concern for me (and you frankly) would have allowed you to adopt a position of strength - even if saying 'sorry honey, but it just isn't going to work out, period, good-bye, adios.'"

"So why don't you answer your own questions for me? That would be as a favour to me, for sure - would be very, very informative. What *do* you do when things are hard??"

WW: "What I meant to say was that despite the fact that I can be selfish and can be blinded by my past feelings of resentment, the quality of your character (the person that you are - your patience and strength - your goodness) allow
me to see through my own flaws. They help me to focus on you. They help me to hold on. To still have hope."

JR: "Hmmm... I have to get really honest here and admit that I have no clue how these pieces fit together... maybe you can help me... how your comments from above re misery tie in with this comment. You have hope for what, WW? What's it going to take to translate that hope into something real? It's not hope unless it can happen, and it can't happen while...??"

Is this all very un-MB? All very pushy? Well, frankly, I don't really care right now. I'm expressing myself through questions that I would guess are difficult for WW to hear. BUT... She just might be *hearing* after all...

WW: "There is something else that I have learned. You probably are right. There are other guys out there that are, in your words, "[great]" There are also women
out there who are more sensitive, more understanding, more beautiful, more
fun-loving, more adventurous, more intelligent, are better cooks etc. But everyone is unique. Nobody has that special combination of qualities that makes you "you" and me "me".
That's why I'm not so quick to agree with the statement that there are "plenty of guys out there who you could likely be happier with".

My response has been one of very, very cautious optimism. I let her know that - that I'm suspicious and waiting to hear more from her on a few important topics. (Whether she's ready to give 100%, basically.)

So it's a process... Not sure how I feel about it yet... It almost seems like it would require a huge effort to shift my direction back to believing in the M again.

J.R.:

I don't think it's "un-MB" at all. It's being honest. It's refusing to tread on eggshells for the rest of your life. It's $h!++ing and getting off the pot, J.R!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
♥Qfwfq

2Qfwfq,

Yup, and it does seem to be working well - for me for sure, 'cause I feel like I'm standing on my own ground again, and for her because she's finally having to face reality - that she can't have both of us. (Well, I think she realized this a while ago - OM's long gone. It's taken a while for her to come to terms with the damage, etc.)

She's been sucking up to me a bit, I think. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> (Or maybe I'm so starved for attention anything seems like sucking up... nah, it seems genuine. If not, she's on alert that I'm not about to take any @*!#.)

I heard on the news today the term "tipping point" used - when things start to snowball towards a conclusion. I'm not sure yet, but we may be gitting there - I think she realizes that I'm extremely stubborn, and so this could go on forever if she doesn't do something about it.

<small>[ April 09, 2003, 08:29 PM: Message edited by: J.R. ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by J.R.:
<strong>Last we saw JR, he was talking tough, talking to WW more with a "whatever" attitude than ever before. .....
WW: "There is something else that I have learned. You probably are right. There are other guys out there that are, in your words, "[great]" There are also women
out there who are more sensitive, more understanding, more beautiful, more
fun-loving, more adventurous, more intelligent, are better cooks etc. But everyone is unique. Nobody has that special combination of qualities that makes you "you" and me "me".
That's why I'm not so quick to agree with the statement that there are "plenty of guys out there who you could likely be happier with".

.....</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey JR,

Good to hear from U! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Funny how when the BS is ready to move on and LETS the Ws go find the other other...... those dern WS' keep trying to jump back into the boat.

I told similar to the one in my house. He even asked me if I wanted him to leave and I said, yes. Guess who stayed? Of course each time I went that route the requirements went up. He has met them so far....

What I see you in case, is that there is nothing left for her to push. She can't bully you into the control that the WS demands you can't have on them. Go figure. More fogese.

When the BS gives the WS the rope, looks who tries to hog tie who?!?!? The BS is not the one with the lasso. Hm.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Well I am glad you are stronger and moving forward. Hope the fog clears a bit your way.

take care,
L.