I almost don't know where to begin....here we go, another night of mine that I had things to do for work, and I didn't get any of it even started because my H walzed in to my apt., and phoned me, etc. (He would say look how selfish I am just for thinking that).

He showed up here, out of the blue, and because he arrived not one minute after someone else left here, I thought it was that person buzzing to get something they forgot, but it was him, so I was caught, I had to let him in.

He comes up, and first thing he asks is "Who's coaching you?" implying that I didn't answer his calls because someone's been coaching me. Maybe he's reading these posts? But I somehow doubt it.
I told him no one's coaching me. I told him I wasn't home when he called, and I didn't call him back b/c he told me not to call him anymore.

He tried to help me fix my computer which I'd complained about to him before, to no avail. I tried to talk to him while he was doing this, he would barely reply, or didn't respond, or said things like, "Don't talk to me, you're more beautiful when you don't talk." (He's said this many times in the last year.) It was stated by him at some point during this that he has never changed his mind, he's always wanted a divorce.

A bit later when he was accusing me of being condascending, I said "I'm condascending? Who's the one here that told the other one to be quiet b/c you're more beautiful when you're quiet?!?" (He gets to be condascending but I don't apparently.)

He proceeded to try to persuade me to have sex. I said no way, not if he had no desire to be married to me, and that I want to be his wife not his sex toy. Besides, he wasn't willing to talk to me, and I want more from our relationship than sex. He said well, if we have sex, I'll talk to you after. Ha, no, I wouldn't agree to that. So he said he was leaving. On the way out he said "this time you won't see me for months, trust me." I paused and called after him, "drive safe!" (I had nothing to say to him...all I could think was that he wanted me to run after him and beg and plead and I wasn't willing.)

About 15-20 mins later he calls me. He's been thinking about things apparently. He said, "You asked me why I keep calling you and seeing you, it’s because I wonder and hope that I can forgive you someday. And then I see you, and you’re all “independent” and talking about looking out for yourself, and I can’t stand you." He said many other choice things, which I may as well post here, since I was a freak and wrote them down as he said them (which made him mad, b/c he figured out I was doing this):

• This new you I can’t even stand
• Your just a callous cold hearted *****
• You’ve always been good at looking out for yourself first
• That’s what you should do, start looking for someone else, b/c you’re not getting any younger
• You just don’t get it
• Stay away from my family we’ll solve our own problems
• Don’t get my mom’s hopes up that we’ll be getting back together
• I’ll tell her I told you that
When I asked him how should I act, if I'm not getting it, and if the way I act makes him mad, he wouldn't really answer, he just said things like:
• You always have a condescending tone
• The entire time I’ve known you I’ve been like this
• You’re always telling me what to do
• It was always about you

And now for the clincher. He told me I was so cavalier and condascending, that it was like he was my little student and I was the big teacher talking down to him. I said that's odd, that's what's bothered me for years about him in our marriage, that he was like the condascending teacher. Then he said, "that's what bothered you - it's too bad i was always right," and he hung up. He hasn't called back.

So I don't think my "new attitude" or "180" is going to attract him in any way, shape or form. He doesn't want me as a wife if he can't keep me under his thumb, kissing his a$$ (what he said once before about how I should be behaving), acting like he corners the market on emotional pain and suffering.

Besides, he thinks this is really how I've always been (always looking out for myself first), I just managed to cover it up from time to time. He said I used to get this way when I spent too much time around some of my female friends.

I'm mostly angry tonight. Angry that he wasted this many hours of my time. Angry that he wants me to go back to being like I was, his little feeble "please control me" wife.

I asked him if he really wanted me to go back to being the "old me", the meek one, the one that included the Jen that thought everyone else was to blame except me for my affair. He gave no response to that, of course. But I know he doesn't like the new me either.

I've never been good enough for him, nor will I ever be.

He said tonight it's just over 2 months until we're not married anymore, and that I should start looking for someone else b/c I'm not getting any younger.

Do I come across as
-selfish
-condascending
-out for myself first and foremost

Would any men find those strong but negative sounding characteristics attractive? Do I have a chance at finding a man who can handle a woman who's interested in putting herself high at the top of her priority list?

Please give me some feedback tonight, anyone, I'm so angry and/or worked up, sleep's not going to be an option!!!

What the heck is wrong with my H? He's such an unattractive controlling man at this point. I don't want to be with him.

(Sorry this is so long, and thanks for reading if u made it this far.)

Jen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

<small>[ March 11, 2003, 12:37 AM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

PS: The apparent reason why he came over (other than a desire for sex, or to be nice enough to try to fix my computer, or to talk) was that his mom had a really bad day, was very emotional, he went to try to comfort her, and she went off again about how he should forgive me and get back together with me. He wanted to know if I'd been talking to her again (I haven't in over a week). I think she keeps on pressuring him about me b/c if he and I got back together it would be one less thing in her life that's fallen apart, I even told him this (to which there was no reply.)

Again, my big question of the night is: What the heck is wrong with my H? Why doesn't he have any interest in pursuing me or forgiving me like most of the BSs on MB???

JB <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Jen,

Just a short reply. I see you needed to vent but have some questions. Your H is angry and no matter what you do he will find a reason to pick on you. Difuse his anger bubble.

How? Don't give in. You love the good part of him not this angry part. Eventually mine got over his anger when he saw is was NOT moving me. I was no longer able to be manipulated.

Does that mean he doesn't like the new you? Yes. But not for the right reason. Inside, deep inside, he is probably glad you are moving forward. He is also just as angry that he can't be where you are.

take care, Jen. I am not posting much right now because I need sometime to figure some stuff out. Sorting things in my mind, I guess.

I am reading though, take care, ok? I am proud of you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

L.

Jen your WH(he is one now) seems to be realize that he can't manipulate you anymore thru isolation and guilt ('Who's coaching you?'), so now he has decided to pay you visits and apply the guilt face to face, hoping that it will work its usual magic on you. Thankfully, you are not playing his little spoiled brat game and he has decided to throw the threat of not seeing you for awhile. I'd like to lay 10:1 odds that his threat won't even last one week, before he rings your doorbell and does his tired little number on you.

As I said on your other thread, the day that you move on (and he realizes it) will be the day he will come to you a courtin'. In a strange way, he's doing it right now.

I don't know, Jen, maybe its just me, but you sound emotionally VERY healthy with a VERY strong self esteem. You seem to be setting VERY reasonable boundaries (this from someone who is not very good with boundaries - me!). Maybe the reason he is criticizing you so much is that his self esteem is so low and he is resentful of your healthy self esteem? Just a thought.

BB

Hello Jen,
Your H sounds a lot like mine except that he is the WS. He is proud and refuses to accept any responsibility for the problems that existed in our marriage. He continues the A and refuses to consider any form of counselling(oh except for me because I clearly have self esteem issues!!).

Jen, be strong. It seems to me that if he can't reach out to you, attempt to communicate with you and demonstrably show that he is willing to do most things to save your marriage....do you really want to be married to someone who will NEVER put you first?

I think I am asking myself this same question. I fear the answer too.

Like Lisa In London, you recognise the pain you have inflicted on your BS. I think it must reflect the BH's personality traits that they are unwilling to forgive and work on things.

I hope you stay strong Jen.

Regards
Deluded

Hi Jen,

Just my thoughts... but I think that your H is trying to reach out to you the "best" way that he knows how... His comments and anger could be from his realization that HE needs to make some changes.

I know that it took me quite a while to come to that fact and I was angry and tried to place all of the blame on my FWW...

Keep up your Plan A and give him some time... I think that he might just start to come around...

Semper Fi,
RIF90

I'd say the other posters are pretty much right on the money. His self-esteem is in the pits, and he can't stand that you seem confident. You've been dealing with your problems in a much healthier manner, that is the big difference between the two of you. He has been wallowing in booze and self pity while you have been searching for what caused your marriage to unravel and how to improve yourself from within. You are willing to take part of the blame, while he is not.

Too bad you got your night wasted over that. It's like same ****, different day huh? Tell me something I HAVEN'T heard... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Orchid: "Difuse his anger bubble....How? Don't give in. You love the good part of him not this angry part. Eventually mine got over his anger when he saw is was NOT moving me. I was no longer able to be manipulated." Hmmm...so there's still hope is what you seem to be saying, as in he may finally change his behaviour if I stick to my guns and don't let him manipulate me. Interesting.

TMCM: Indeed, he couldn't manipulate me through the phone (I wouldn't answer or wasn't home) so he had to show up and try it in person. I guess one thing I'm losing a little sight of here is that he does want to be with me somewhere inside that heart and head of his (or he wouldn't keep calling and visiting me as he says, hoping he can forgive me), but is struggling with how I behave. I'd say better than 10:1 odds that he won't keep his "months" promise. His word doesn't carry much weight any more as far as those threats go. He doesn't have the strength to last.

Brit's Brat: "Maybe the reason he is criticizing you so much is that his self esteem is so low and he is resentful of your healthy self esteem? " Sounds reasonable, and I hope this is it, but even if this is it, what next??

Deluded: "....do you really want to be married to someone who will NEVER put you first?" Good question. No I don't. And I'm able to say that without cringing this time too.

Maybe you're right, maybe it's just my H's personality not to be able to forgive. He's so used to taking things I've done wrong and throwing them in my face for his own advantage, why would he want to forgive me now?

It's odd how I remain strong and somewhat angry this time, and not sad. I worry that I'm perhaps really somewhat selfish and callous, like he says. But I'm so thankful to hear several of you tell me that I am just keeping healthy boundaries, and showing healthy self-esteem. That's what I thought I had until he tried to mess with my mind yet again! NO MORE!

JB

Jen,

Well if you do have the list of traits he suggests then yes you will have a hard time finding a man to put with them. I will touch on that a bit more in a moment.

But, let's review the list:

selfish? Yes, one affair with his BF,and two other (I don't know what to call them)

Callous? Yep, you didn't worry too much how this was going to affect your H or your marriage.

Short sighted? Yes, you have been that.

However, it seems to me many of the things he complains about you, are in fact HIS traits and characteristics. From what you have said he has some serious issues from before the A's and they have become worse.

He has become worse with the A's and with the lose of his Dad, but that doesn't explain what he did before.

My take on this is that he is going to have to do the work and he isn't. I presume by his 2 months comment that you have a waiting period before divorce. I guess my recommendation is to wait and see what he does. Unless something changes I would be recommending that YOU file.

But, things do change, there is time, and there is always hope. I do think right now keeping away from him is the best approach. He must sort this out. He has been seriously damaged both by you and the loss of his dad. So time should help. Will it help enough? Time and patience is the only way to see.

Hang in there.

God Bless,

JL

Jen,

I'm very happy for you right now, even if you don't feel quite the same.

You've definitly got him thinking right now. He is at a crossroads. The threats and intimidation that used to break you down are no longer have the disired affect.
That's probably why he was a little more callous in his remarks. Trying to dig a little deeper and get a reaction out of you. Desperation does that.

It's great that your showing him that you don't want to be treated like crap anymore. Keep it up.
But don't forget to let him know that you still love him and want to work things out. (unless you don't)
He may not be particualarly attractive right now, but he's only doing what has worked for him in the past.
Hopefully he will see that love and respect will get him what threats and controlling will not. There is huge potential for him to become a better, stronger and more respecting person from this.

Way to go,
Brad

Thanks JR and How?. Get this, TMCM is right again! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> My H called here 2x tonight. I got home very late from work, so when I saw his number on my phone I gave him a quick call to let him know I wasn't ignoring him, but was not home yet. He made some goofy remarks about "were you out with some hot guy on a date? did you use a condom?" blah blah. I just kept saying no. Keep in mind I'm exhausted and sound that way. I told him I felt that way, and then asked how he is. He gave me his usual sarcastic "splendid" reply. I asked him what was on his mind. He said nothing. I said you sure? He said yup, I guess I'm going then, and we said goodbye.

Odd little call from someone who was so disgusted with me yesterday.....it would seem he really does wish he could love me again (or still does); why else would he contact me so much?

Sleepy Jen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

Thinking on the positive side, one could say you are in a win - win situation.

On the one hand, your H realizes and changes the way he treats you and your relationship becomes stronger and more meaningful than it ever has.

On the other hand, your H is unable to give up his controlling tendancies and finds an easier target. If this is the case then you are really better off without him.

Either way you are a winner. As long as you continue to build the part of you that has been stepped on for so long, you can't lose.

I'm not saying it's all that easy. Just a thought I had.

Brad

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Get this, TMCM is right again! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's the java juice <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

I wonder what he would have said (when he asked you if you had been out on with a hot guy on a date) if you had responded with the following:

"Yes I was and he is everything I want in a man: Kind, Gentle, Attentive, Faithful (with no female friends to compete with), Respectful and Loving. I want to be this guy's wife so much. Unfortunately I don't know where he lives. I wonder if I'll ever see him again. Do you want to know his name? His name is (your H's name). Do you have any idea where I can find him? I guess you really don't, do you?"

Oh well, maybe it was just as well that you didn't say this to him.

<small>[ March 12, 2003, 02:57 AM: Message edited by: 2MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

How?, that's an interesting and optimistic way to look at things. I quite like it!

TMCM - My guess is he would've hung up on me mid-sentence (right after the part about female friends - he feels SOOO entitled to them).....or gotten mad b/c OM's name is the same name as my H, so it's a little tedious. Nice idea though.

Jen

Jen,

I must say as I follow your threads that you should have much hope...

This man is pursuing you!!!! I hope you can see that....... Let him.... You have never needed a plan B..

Let's recap...
He calls you..(sometimes over 10,11,12 times in a row) He "drops"over unexpectedly.... He wants to have sex with you....Yada, Yada, Yada..
I would call that pursuit.. Woudn't you?

Have you ever heard the audio tapes of Dr.Dobson?
On the tapes he tells in detail of his early relationship with his wife . It is very good. It gave him some of his views on relationships and what is really going on .

He tells that when they first met he was a"lofty Senor" in College and she was a "lowly sophomore"
He knew she really liked him and because of her high interest level and enthusiasm in winning him, his interested in her was inhibited.

Well it went on like this until he graduated and was going into the army. The night before he left to go to basic training he told her that he thought she should date other guys and that they should break up because he was not ready to get married.... etc..

Her response to him breaking up with her was what shocked him.... They were sitting in his car and she looked at him and said, you know that I have been thinking the same thoughts and I think it would be a good idea if I dated other people.(she agreed with him)

He was SHOCKED!!! He thought she would cry and try to hold on to him, but she didn't. He said he INSTANTLY wanted her back and knew he had made a mistake.. She did not tell him that after she said that, she went into her house and cried all night.

Well after he got out of the army things took a turn in the other direction. He was a college "has been", and she was a Senor in college, a cheerleader, a member of Who's Who in American Colleges and Universities, and one of the most popular girls in the class... She suddenly looked very attractive to him... Suddenly he was pursuing her... Now HER interest was not as high and his was... He began to call several times a day, complain about who she was spending her time with, and trying to find ways to please her. But that was not working... She was inhibited because of his pursuing her so hard now...

He said he sat down one night and thought for hours about what was happening and then suddenly a "light bulb" went on in his head and he wrote down 10 changes he was going to make in the relationship.(he kept that list and still has it to this day)

First was that he was going to demonstrate self respect and dignity, even if he lost the one he loved so deeply. Second he was going to convey the attitude that he was going somewhere in life and he was anxious to get there. I love you and hope you choose to go with me. If you do I will give myself to you a try to make you happy. However if you choose not to make the journey with me, then I can't force my will on you. The decision is yours and I accept it.

You see Jen, by letting them think you have let go, is what brings them back. Once you do that, you will see the many benefits to you. Does not mean you have to go to a plan B.

Allow your husband to be mad or act like a jerk or whatever. Every one of us is screwed up and disfunctional <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> He has the right to be also.

Just learn to agree with his view. Disagreeing does not work. Tell him, maybe he IS right, maybe it can't work out. Maybe it is too far damaged and you can't forgive me. Maybe we should divorce. Tell him you can understand why he would not want to be with someone who he is not happy with. You feel the same way.... etc... etc.... Tell him you don't think you should have sex together anymore because things just don't seem to be working......

Almost as if you are shrugging your shoulders and he gets the feeling that you have finally given up
hope..... If he loves you he will then start to come around, if not, maybe it is for the best. There really is nothing more to talk about...etc..

He seems to like to argue and say and do the opposite of what you say or want. It makes sense to me then, that if you agree with him about things, then for him to argue, he has to start telling you why you are wrong for giving up... Kinda weird in a way, but why fight what works to bring them around?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Keepmvn4wrd:
<strong>You see Jen, by letting them think you have let go, is what brings them back. Once you do that, you will see the many benefits to you. Does not mean you have to go to a plan B.

Allow your husband to be mad or act like a jerk or whatever. Every one of us is screwed up and disfunctional <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> He has the right to be also.

Just learn to agree with his view. Disagreeing does not work. Tell him, maybe he IS right, maybe it can't work out. Maybe it is too far damaged and you can't forgive me. Maybe we should divorce. Tell him you can understand why he would not want to be with someone who he is not happy with. You feel the same way.... etc... etc.... Tell him you don't think you should have sex together anymore because things just don't seem to be working......

Almost as if you are shrugging your shoulders and he gets the feeling that you have finally given up
hope..... If he loves you he will then start to come around, if not, maybe it is for the best. There really is nothing more to talk about...etc..

He seems to like to argue and say and do the opposite of what you say or want. It makes sense to me then, that if you agree with him about things, then for him to argue, he has to start telling you why you are wrong for giving up... Kinda weird in a way, but why fight what works to bring them around?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Excellent idea keepmvn4wrd, and I wouldn't be surprised if Jen's H ended up reacting like somebody dropped a big bucket of icy, cold water on top of his head. But I doubt that, for now, Jen would try such an approach, even though I too beleive that she would stand more to gain from it than what she could potentially stand to loose from it. Oh how I would love to be a witness to martyr boy's look on his face if she ever that to him.

Forgive me if I am confused here. Isn't TMCM and Keepmvn4wrd suggesting here is a Plan B or somewhat of a modified one? Maybe I don't understand what a true Plan B is.

I agree that he is pursuing Jen and can't keep out of her life. He has always had his way and was spoiled about it. Jen has learned to be that better person - Good job Jen!

But...what is the difference with what you are saying versus a Plan B? I am all for what Dr. Dobson has said and have used his books and tapes in our own recovery. I guess I thought that before you "run out" of love and have feelings run the wrong way you go to Plan B. Have that other person start to realize what is being lost and have them get back on the track.

Jen
Thinking about you. I understand your H is in alot of pain, and I was seeing his side at first BUT I don't think that gives him a reason to mistreat you or talk down to you, which he did before your A's started so he really needs to face reality and change his ways too. You did. It's his turn.

Zoey

I posted an update in recovery

First of all, TMCM, you really have got my H pegged, calling him "martyr boy"! That is exactly who he is!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I've even called him that myself on several occasions!!

keepmvn4wrd, you are so right, he is pursuing me now. Score yet another one for TMCM, he showed up here again tonight (so much for not seeing him for months). I know what you mean about letting him be and just agreeing with him. I've tried that a little. He just gets silent (obvious indication of confusion?) when I agree with him.

It's odd, I recall at one time saying that I needed him to pursue me. Here he is, beginning to do so.

Trouble is, I don't know if I want to be with him. Tonight he told me that he hates one of my best girlfriends, and told me I'd basically have to give up her friendship to be with him. He told me how he threw out some nice figurines a nice couple that we are friends with gave to us. He emphasized that he hates everyone. I am happy and enjoying life b/c I've renewed and been enjoying friendships with people, but he's been isolating himself. It's just not attractive for one, and two, I don't want to cut myself off from the world to be with my H. Sure I still love him, but I really don't know if I want to be with him, not unless he can make some major changes, and he feels so entitled to his current behaviour and attitudes that I have trouble forseeing him changing any time soon.

So, as the kind and wise Zoey said, it's time for him to make changes, but I really have trouble imagining he's capable or interested in doing so.

One of the stories he told me tonight about his mom shows me that she has a huge sense of entitlement to behave however she likes (and treat people however she likes) right now too. She hasn't talked to her mother in over a week (they usually talk 1-2 times per day!) b/c her mother is stressing somewhat about her own health (has apparently got slightly high blood sugar, and needs to attend to it). But my MIL told her mother to stop whining, look how good she has it, she got to live to age 80 and still has her H and all her kids and grandkids. (Never mind that her mother lost her own mom young, lost her sister, etc.) Both my H and his mom think they've cornered the market on grief, and no one had better try to tell them otherwise. Gosh they are so similar it's eerie at times.

So yes, he came over and we spent some time together tonight, but I fear that I may no longer want to be with him. I don't want to lose my friends, and be stuck with my H, hiding out at home, being controlled by him, and not really living. He's going to have to really make some changes to attract me at this point I think.

It used to be that if he came over here, when he left I'd end up crying and sad b/c I love him and didn't want him to go. Tonight I was being polite telling him not to, but wasn't sad when he left, not at all.

For those who mentioned plan B, I'm not going there. I'm just going to look after myself, and maintain my boundaries. Technically, I guess I'm in a cautious plan A still at this point.

I feel sorry for him, I really do. He's isolated himself so much from the world it's sad. As he says so often, he hates everyone. (Incidentally, before he left, he said he didn't hate me at that moment.) Getting back together with him b/c I feel sorry for him just isn't the right thing to do though.

Sigh, I'm not sad or angry tonight, I just feel really sorry for him.

Jen