You have received some good advice. The best is your response, " I am moving into a new phase" you are starting to concentrate on what will be best for you and make you happy. You can only do so much and then time tells you its working or it isn't. When it isn't then you shift gears and go another direction. I see alot of my husband in yours. Totally self absorbed in whats best for him and wanting to be the controller of the situation.I was told never to bring up subject again or he would leave. Hows that for control. It worked and I hate myself for letting him do it . Amazing how they can assume you can just forget about an affair because they tell you too. ha So cold and totally without empathy like their feelings are only ones that matter to them. I too find myself having less anger less emotion, less of alot of things. After time you get beaten down with frustration trying to make things right in marriage and your spouse seems to be happy way things are. Total denial. Let your husband go on trip alone and see how he likes it. If he likes it you haven't lost a thing. Your right that "they" have no empathy as to what they do to us, bottom line for them is, whats best for me. Some are lucky and have spouse who makes things right and really want to and maybe you will work it out, hope so. I know with me Im just getting tired of walking on ice all the time and feeling I have to leave my home in order to feel calm at times when he is around. I use to worship ground he walked on and believed all he said until almost 3 yrs ago and then he started lying to me. Actually the lies started much earlier only I was foolish and didn't know it. He is and was I thought a decent man but this has really thrown me. Some times are great howver but to many times Im not comfortable being with my husband as Im not sure what he is up to or I look at him and feel I just don't know him anymore. Do what you feel is best for you not what everyone else tells you however. No one but you knows the real situation and knows yours husband. Got with your gut instinct its usually right. Best to you.

Dear Chardondeere,

Thanks for your reply - I feel the same way you do - I read what you said on Bradnessa's thread about how can one forgive - and it seems that for you, as for me, the issue is trust.

Someone here once told me that you have to rebuild trust before the rebuilding of love can happen. Your H may have ended his A (was it a physical affair?) - but since he refuses to answer any further questions on the subject, you are blocked in your efforts to recover your relationship with him. Yes, he is "blackmailing" you by threatening to leave you if you mention it again - in other words, "I'll stay with you and we can have good times together, but only on my terms". I would say that if you suspect he is still in phone or e-mail contact with her, then the affair is not really over. If that is true, then he is still maintaining his emotional contact with her, which drains something off your marriage - like tapping the sap off a tree - if you drain enough sap off the tree, the tree will die.

Are you both in MC? Or are you the only one in counselling now? I would say that if you are both in MC, that you should ask the MC to help you focus on rebuilding trust between you - and let the counselor tackle his resistance to opening up to you.

If you are not both in MC at this time, but you are in counselling for yourself, then like you said, try to focus now on yourself - making yourself strong, and taking steps to be more independent from him. I am in this position myself - I feel very anxious about finances - I feel like I need my H in order to be able to raise our two boys. But what happens to me is that I let myself get emotionally overwhelmed about the feeling of emptiness in my marriage - what has happened, what we have lost, what we could be if only we were both trying in the same way, how my H has changed. I think about these things all the time, instead of "switching all that off" and turning my mind to my own self and trying to pursue my own career development. That said, I think it is very hard to live with someone on this basis - when you believe in marriage, honesty, loyalty and mutual respect - it is hard to live with someone that you suspect is withholding part of himself and sharing it in secret with another woman. It makes one, over time, lose respect for your spouse. Like a lot of people have said to me, I feel like I am coming up to a turning point - when I will have to choose for myself how I want to live - do I want to live the rest of my life with only half a husband, and someone who has decided that lying is the only way he can get what he wants out of life? Or do I want to break out and choose not to live with that anymore and risk being alone? For me, there is also the question of the boys. It is hard for me to justify leaving, if it is only my own happiness at stake - if he is a good father and is not abusive to me, then, for their sake, perhaps I should stick it out the few more years it will take for them to grow older - they are 7 and 10, and five more years would make a big difference in terms of their stability. I am struggling with all these questions to decide what is the right thing to do, even though I am unhappy with the situation.

You sound to me to be very sad - I wonder if there is anything you can do - just one thing, that would help you feel stronger in yourself.

For me, one of the things people have told me is that I write well, and I should write. Well, I never get around to it - I have lots of ideas, but never do anything about it - I am lazy and procrastinate a lot. Well, I subscribe to this Flylady website which has taught me how to manage my house by instituting routines, and I now know that if I REALLY want to write, that I will have to make time for that and work it into a routine, otherwise, everything and everyone and his brother will come between me and writing anything at all. So I told myself today that I have to figure out a time during the day, every day, and incorporate it into my routine, even if its only for 15 minutes a day. And my next rule is: I am NOT allowed to write about my problems with my husband. In my "my time" writing, I will not allow myself to expend any more of my personal energy focusing on my husband - I have given him enough of me already. And if I do that, none of my other ideas will ever have a chance to develop. It would be like trying to raise a cuckoo's egg - the cuckoo lays its egg in the nest of other birds, and the chick which hatches is bigger than all the others, and eventually crowds them all out, so they fall out of the nest before they are ready and die. So it will be with my ideas - they will all be crowded out by the obsession with my H, if I allow myself to let him invade that space I have made for myself.

Can you find something - whatever it is - some kind of activity that you do alone - like playing tennis, or going to the gym, walking for half an hour a day, painting, drawing, gardening, taking a class in night school - anything, that belongs ONLY to you, where you tell yourself you are going to do this just for you, not to make him happy, not to better yourself so that he will be more attracted to you - just for you alone. I think that would be a good idea for you.

Thank you for sharing your feelings with me - I do understand the dilemma you are in - I am in it myself. I hope I have said something that helps.

Take care,
LIR

Hi LIR,
I have read over your recent posts and as usual there is a lot I would like to say. I wish I had two or three hours tonight, but I am too tired to write much. I don't do well late at night anyway, but I need to say a few things.

I find I must disagree with you strongly about something for the first time since I began reading your posts.
I am lazy and procrastinate a lot.
Now, I only get what I read here but I don't get the picture of a lazy person. With the stress you are under It is a wonder you get done all that you do. Stress sucks the energy out of a person and leaves little energy left beyond doing the basics. In fact, it is very hard to do the basics many days. Please recognize that you can only do so much. I believe as you continue to grow personally your energy and ability will grow also and you will be able to reach your other goals.

You have simply put first things first and that is as it should be. Often when we don't reach goals we consider ourselves lazy. I am sorry if I upset you but I believe you are wrong about this one.

I still see signs of hope in what your H does and says. He is far off course but at least he is asking for directions, and that is unusual in men. He may even be asking for the wrong reasons, but asking is good.

Once we spoke a little about communication and I never finished my thoughts. Even if he communicates for the wrong reasons you can lead him along. I see no way it will be anything but a long hard road but I am not seeing a bad end yet. As Jante once said, you still have him there where you can work him over good with a baseball bat from time to time, just don't let him up until you are finished with him. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
Actually, she didn't say it quite like that, but I think I will let it stand for tonight.

I have some ideas for you but it will probably be another long one. I am still thinking about it.

You are still causing him to think about things and if he continues to think, he will see someday see the truth.

I believe you still have a lot of strength left and I believe you will even be able to gather new strength as you go - as noted before, the refiners fire is a cleansing and strengthening fire.

Thank you for that great post on Lisa's thread. I believe you did just right. You have some of the best thought processes of anyone here, and you give excellent advice.

I must go, I wish you well. I agree with your thinking on staying a few years more - but only if the abuse does not continue.

SS

Lady in Red, reading your reply to me was like seeing myself, I could have written same things. I have a good man I think worth "keeping" at least I tell myself that, he has bent over backwards to be attentive and nice to me and I would like to think its his way of saying he's sorry. HOWEVER, we all know that you can;'t build a good relationship on lies and have one partner in the dark. He is hiding things and I don't know why so can only guess and therefore like most, we imagine the worse. I know it could all be over , all of it but until he talks I have to assume its not. Really pretty sure he hasn't seen her in 3 yrs but finding out how things are is a dif story emailing or phoning her.The not knowing eats at you. I am financially well off so leaving would not be a problem and our children are married adults. I want this man I know he could be all I need but he is destroying so darn much of my feelings for him by his secrets. They just don't get it. If its over why destroy the marriage with secrets and lies??? Thanks for replying you really said it all very well. Shifting problem to us is typical tactic isn't it? He has done all the classic denial things we all recognize ha They don't see it of coarse. Keep posting we all help each other. MC doesn't help much as just as confused as I and once after found out he went and sat and said nothing and MC let him. Was terrible. He would go but sit there and say I imagined it all and I simply could not take it. I will some day reach my bottom line and he will tell me or I will leave and Im getting stronger about that. I love him I think but I don't want half a husband even if that half is wonderful. I don't want to wonder every time he leaves or I have to leave (we have two homes) if he will see her. Must go, later.

Lady in Red, reading your reply to me was like seeing myself, I could have written same things. I have a good man I think worth "keeping" at least I tell myself that, he has bent over backwards to be attentive and nice to me and I would like to think its his way of saying he's sorry. HOWEVER, we all know that you can;'t build a good relationship on lies and have one partner in the dark. He is hiding things and I don't know why so can only guess and therefore like most, we imagine the worse. I know it could all be over , all of it but until he talks I have to assume its not. Really pretty sure he hasn't seen her in 3 yrs but finding out how things are is a dif story emailing or phoning her.The not knowing eats at you. I am financially well off so leaving would not be a problem and our children are married adults. I want this man I know he could be all I need but he is destroying so darn much of my feelings for him by his secrets. They just don't get it. If its over why destroy the marriage with secrets and lies??? Thanks for replying you really said it all very well. Shifting problem to us is typical tactic isn't it? He has done all the classic denial things we all recognize ha They don't see it of coarse. Keep posting we all help each other. MC doesn't help much as just as confused as I and once after found out he went and sat and said nothing and MC let him. Was terrible. He would go but sit there and say I imagined it all and I simply could not take it. I will some day reach my bottom line and he will tell me or I will leave and Im getting stronger about that. I love him I think but I don't want half a husband even if that half is wonderful. I don't want to wonder every time he leaves or I have to leave (we have two homes) if he will see her. Must go, later.

Hello everyone -

Thank you Chardondeere for your reply - I think you are doing very well, given that your H does not seem interested in doing what it takes to recover your trust.

I have to be brief, because I don't have much time - I just want everyone to know that I have had a rough few days and I feel quite low. I got your e-mail, Lisa - I will reply to you when I can - I am thinking about you - I hope you are OK.

Basically, H walked out of MC on Tues, not completing the 3rd out of the 6 sessions he committed to. He got angry at the counselor and accused her of being in an "alliance" with me. He said that it was clear that she wasn't impartial and there was no use in going on. He left the room after his angry tirade. She managed to get him to come back in again and discuss the fact that he needed to decide where he wanted to go from here - he said he didn't have any more money to spend on counselling. She said we needed to go to someone neither of us had seen previously so that it was totally neutral. I reminded him of two priests who we could see for free, who have been mentioned to us before, one of whom we met with for one session two years ago, who offered to come down from London and counsel us for free. It was important to say that so that he cannot say there are no other suitable options. We left separately and I told the counselor I want to come on my own next week.

The catalyst to this happening is that we had something of a row on Tues. AM over the computer - it has been messing up since last Thursday - I suggested then, and a number of times since, that it may have a virus. H insists that it doesn't, but in his usual manner, he is dismissive. All he would have to say it "Well, maybe it does, if it doesn't clear up, I can always take it in and have it scanned." But no. It's "no, it doesn't. I am right." Period. I got fed up and went downstairs. He came down. I said angrily "I would like to talk to you in the kitchen" - he brushed past me, refusing, getting angry and saying that I was being "inappropriate" - that the children were in the house. I lost it and muttered angrily under my breath "It's like living in a f*****ing prison here," not even looking at him, going past him into the kitchen. He got mad and said I was being aggressive. I said I wasn't, I was just expressing how I felt.

He took YS to school and called me on his mobile on his way home. I said that I was sorry for what I had said and could we talk about it at our counselling session that night. He agreed that that was the place to talk about it. So we go to the session, and the counselor asks how we have been - I said we had had a couple of conversations and also a couple of arguments. She asked H if there was anything he wanted to contribute and he brought up that morning's argument, criticizing me for getting mad at him. I gave my version of events, and whilst I said that I recognize that swearing was not a good thing, it was a sign of the frustration that I have built up inside me, and that in fact, I have not used any swear words in at least a year. She let us argue for a few minutes and then intervened, saying she felt there was a battle going on in the room. She commented that he often looked at her and asked why that was. He said he expected her to referee. She said she was there to facilitate between us, but not to referee over who was right and who was wrong. She looked at him directly as she said all this, and that's when he exploded. He accused her of staring at him in an aggressive manner and being on my side, not being impartial. It all came apart. At the end of his tirade he said, and this is what really gets me, he leaned forward and pointed at me and said "What's REALLY going on here is that SHE has a hell of a temper that she can't control, and she is FORCING me into playing the role of the aggressor! I can see that this is not going to accomplish anything!" and he walked out.

OK, I know what you all are going to say - I see it myself, that he is refusing to take any responsibility for himself. I can see that. But its what the implications are that frighten me. On our computer yesterday, I found the full text of a letter he had written to his own counselor describing this session. He described me as coming to the session on an "angry roll", and that I had leveled a non-stop "stream of invective" against him that the counselor had done nothing to stop. He portrayed himself, without any question, as the long-suffering husband of an abusive wife. He said he thanked God that he could talk to him. I just broke inside when I read this. I think my H will go to any length to tear me apart rather than admit that there is anything wrong with himself. And I am sure that he has convinced the friends that he has talked to that this is the person he is living with. Anyone who knows anything about co-dependency will see the Martyr and the Victim read loud and clear in his statements, but they are so far removed from the reality of what is happening inside our house. He actually believes that this is the case - he has convinced himself. And I can also see that all my attempts to talk about our problems, and heal our marriage, all my own admissions of my own failings have been taken up into his mind and he uses them against me. He is not responding like a "normal" WS. He has got some other problem. I always knew he was "difficult" but I never expected to be on the receiving end of this kind of distortion of reality.

I should also say that the woman singer friend did not come down the next day - my H had got a cold, so he said she did not want to catch it.

I am going to go to our local women's centre and see what they can do to help me. I also need a counselor skilled in dealing with abuse. I am also going to go get a full psychological evaluation of myself and leave it on file with my lawyer. I am so upset that he sees me in this light and so afraid that others will believe him, and that if it comes to the end, he will try to keep the children. I feel, though, that I have to try to go through with counselling with a neutral third party, even if that ends in disaster, in order to be able to say I tried everything. Most people, and even his own brother, think I have put up with enough already. But it really bothers me that he could convince some of the friends who have known him a long time that he is right.

Please pray for us.

LIR

LIR

Ooooooooh - you poor thing!!!!!!!

I think the worst thing is that your H believes himself to be right. I see this pattern with my H (lieing to me about the breakdown of his first M, and lieing again to SH, he believes it). Your H believes you are this mad angry woman. He has convinced himself this is true.

Make the plans you mention to protect yourself and your children in the future, whatever that might be.

I will e-mail you directly again, but I am here for you.

Lisa

Hello everyone -

Hello LIR.

I have to be brief, because I don't have much time - I just want everyone to know that I have had a rough few days and I feel quite low.

Been wondering about you, I try not to worry...........

Basically, H walked out of MC on Tues, not completing the 3rd out of the 6 sessions he committed to. He got angry at the counselor and accused her of being in an "alliance" with me. He said that it was clear that she wasn't impartial and there was no use in going on.

You almost predicted this a long time ago. You didn't come right out and say it, but it was there in the back of your mind all along.

He left the room after his angry tirade. She managed to get him to come back in again and discuss the fact that he needed to decide where he wanted to go from here - he said he didn't have any more money to spend on counseling. She said we needed to go to someone neither of us had seen previously so that it was totally neutral.

She's good, but perhaps no one could be good enough in this case. What has happened is that he's been found out. She sees through his facade and he doesn't like it. Or in other words............ she caught him being himself. Lets see though, I am not here today to try and validate you really, I had better go on.

I reminded him of two priests who we could see for free, who have been mentioned to us before, one of whom we met with for one session two years ago, who offered to come down from London and counsel us for free. It was important to say that so that he cannot say there are no other suitable options.

Yes, you should probably do this for peace of mind, but I encourage you to learn about how to protect yourself along with this. I suspect the next one may go much the same. People who live in a fantasy world really expect to find people who agree with them, and become increasingly angry when others won't go along with them.

We left separately and I told the counselor I want to come on my own next week.
You need this, and perhaps she can tell you her opinion after meeting with him in private as she has already done. I am sure you will ask her what she thinks you should do, and I believe she will probably tell you straight out. I would ask her not to sugar coat things. Perhaps she has seen worse cases resolve themselves and can give hope. She's the pro, so value what she says. I don't believe you would have kept going to her if she didn't know what she was doing. You wouldn't stand for a "feel good" person that didn't say some hard things sometimes. At least, I don't think so after reading your thoughts for nearly a year.

The catalyst to this happening is that we had something of a row on Tues. AM over the computer - it has been messing up since last Thursday - I suggested then, and a number of times since, that it may have a virus. H insists that it doesn't, but in his usual manner, he is dismissive. All he would have to say it "Well, maybe it does, if it doesn't clear up, I can always take it in and have it scanned." But no. It's "no, it doesn't. I am right." Period.

You still make me laugh.........actually no, you are just the messenger. It is the similarities between he and I that I laugh about. Finally I can say " no, I don't believe it is that because of these reasons," and I give the reasons. I don't mean to make light of what is happening, but laughing is better than crying, so I laugh.
BTW, you can download a 15 day trial of Norton anti virus from here:
http://nct.digitalriver.com/fulfill/0001.69
I don't know how long it takes to download - or what type of computer and software you have, but it may tell you what you need to know.

I got fed up and went downstairs. He came down. I said angrily "I would like to talk to you in the kitchen" - he brushed past me, refusing, getting angry and saying that I was being "inappropriate" - that the children were in the house. I lost it and muttered angrily under my breath "It's like living in a f*****ing prison here," not even looking at him, going past him into the kitchen. He got mad and said I was being aggressive. I said I wasn't, I was just expressing how I felt.

I am not really sure from how he uses the word "aggressive" what he meant, but would you be mad if I kind of agreed with him on this one? I say kind of - you have reason to be angry but you know from a previous discussion on charity what I am getting at, and no, I don't always do it the right way myself, and I admit it.

As you already understand why I am saying this part, I'll go on. ( and please don't think I am taking you to task because you don't need that, this is just for the future.)

He accused her of staring at him in an aggressive manner and being on my side, not being impartial. It all came apart.

Translation:
She's not going to let me get away with what I had planned, so I had better do it another way.

At the end of his tirade he said, and this is what really gets me, he leaned forward and pointed at me and said "What's REALLY going on here is that SHE has a hell of a temper that she can't control, and she is FORCING me into playing the role of the aggressor! I can see that this is not going to accomplish anything!" and he walked out.

Translation:
The longer I talk, the worse I look, I am going to cut my losses and get out before this gets any worse.

However, it was already a complete loss, and she knows what he was doing and she knows the truth about your interaction with him - just from that evening.

OK, I know what you all are going to say - I see it myself, that he is refusing to take any responsibility for himself. I can see that. But its what the implications are that frighten me. On our computer yesterday, I found the full text of a letter he had written to his own counselor describing this session. He described me as coming to the session on an "angry roll", and that I had leveled a non-stop "stream of invective" against him that the counselor had done nothing to stop. He portrayed himself, without any question, as the long-suffering husband of an abusive wife. He said he thanked God that he could talk to him. I just broke inside when I read this.

When you love someone ( when you have charity) and you want to help them, you approach it from a different point of view. You suffer long, and are kind, you are not puffed up. You seek all avenues for help that you can possible think of. You repeat back what the counselor asks you to repeat even if it makes you feel like a child at school. I am not seeing that kind of help from him. I feel bad for him. Please understand, I have shed tears for you many times, but I have faith in, and hope for you, and I see less of that now for him.
I never thought I would use this one in this context.
John 13: 34-35.
34, A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. 35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have alove one to another.

I believe this is charity as described in other scriptures, and you know what that is. If we want to help someone, we care for and protect them as we seek to understand how to best give that help. I am not seeing care and protection from him. I am afraid for him, but for different reasons than I fear for you.

I think my H will go to any length to tear me apart rather than admit that there is anything wrong with himself. And I am sure that he has convinced the friends that he has talked to that this is the person he is living with. Anyone who knows anything about co-dependency will see the Martyr and the Victim read loud and clear in his statements, but they are so far removed from the reality of what is happening inside our house. He actually believes that this is the case - he has convinced himself. And I can also see that all my attempts to talk about our problems, and heal our marriage, all my own admissions of my own failings have been taken up into his mind and he uses them against me. He is not responding like a "normal" WS. He has got some other problem. I always knew he was "difficult" but I never expected to be on the receiving end of this kind of distortion of reality.

Once long ago we had kind of a talk about how you can't change him and you should work on you.
You have done a great deal of work on you - and have in great measure succeeded in improvements to yourself. Much of your energy lately has been in an effort to help him. I know you know you can't change him. You are working to help him see the truth and change himself. I just think it's time to back off a little bit right now. I don't know what to tell you to do - I wish I was more help with this part, but I can ask some questions - it is probably best to wait until after IC next week, and as I think more on it, you will probably come and list the answers without me even asking.

I should also say that the woman singer friend did not come down the next day - my H had got a cold, so he said she did not want to catch it.
Perhaps she senses something, and is using any excuse to stay away. I suppose right now I know even less than you, so I should just be quiet about it. I think I would snoop. I think you need to know what is going on. Actually, I wonder if his anger is the anger of rejection - do you understand why I am asking that?

I am going to go to our local women's centre and see what they can do to help me.
Please be vary careful - I concur.

I also need a counselor skilled in dealing with abuse. I am also going to go get a full psychological evaluation of myself and leave it on file with my lawyer.
Also wise, and put in writing the reason you are doing it and leave that on file too.

I am so upset that he sees me in this light and so afraid that others will believe him, and that if it comes to the end, he will try to keep the children. I feel, though, that I have to try to go through with counseling with a neutral third party, even if that ends in disaster, in order to be able to say I tried everything. Most people, and even his own brother, think I have put up with enough already. But it really bothers me that he could convince some of the friends who have known him a long time that he is right.
My first reaction is to say that you should not worry what others think,. but I see why the worry. I wonder if he would go that far - to take the children so as to cause pain for you. I don't know how it is at your home, but it doesn't sound like he would want to be a caretaker to them. Perhaps he is thinking boarding school for YS also, but I can't see this one. ???
Help me out here with this part.

Please do what you have to do to protect sons and also protect yourself. It looks like you have thought this out in advance, but ( as usual) I worry. I would speak to counselor about your fears and see what she says.

Please pray for us.
This is ongoing daily, and will also fast this weekend for your family.

How is your mother, and does she understand what is happening to you? Are there things she could be doing to help if she knew more?

SS

Hello Lady,

Boy, does this latest behavior sound way too familiar. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He is not responding like a "normal" WS. He has got some other problem. I always knew he was "difficult" but I never expected to be on the receiving end of this kind of distortion of reality.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dear xDIL is the master of perceived reality, which has nothing to do with REAL reality. There is nothing you can do when H's reality is not real. Some people make up the reality that allows them to live with themselves and to justify their position. The scary thing, psychologically, is they convince themselves that unreality is real. Pretty spooky because you cannot reason with unreality. You are right. This is not a MB thing. It is an issue of an emotionally ill person. There cannot be resolution of an interpersonal problem if one of the people involved lives in unreality. Progress is impossible until that person resolves the issues that are eating him up psychologically.

This is not a WS/OP issue. This is the issue of self-deception to protect ones own psyche. You are an outsider in his battle, and his battle is not about you. He has convinced himself that it is you because it hurts less to blame you than to assume his own blame.

You cannot fix this problem, and you cannot reason with fantasy. If you did everything PERFECTLY, he would still find fault with you rather than accept blame himself. He's freaking out because his smoke screen has not fooled the MC. He knows it and feels vulnerable and exposed.

Work to save yourself first, then the marriage if possible. You cannot reason with nonreality. You will always come out on the losing end because H will make sure that you, not he, looks like the bad guy.

xDIL adamantly professes that the M failed because my son persisted in an unChristian refusal to forgive in spite of how hard she tried. Hel...lo! Excuse me?? Psychologically she is so far out in left field that she wouldn't know the truth if she sat on it (which is that she is an immoral liar). She is a lost cause. But a rational person can easily start thinking he IS crazy.

But you are not who he contends you are. You know that. Consciously conduct yourself in such a way, publically, that no one questions who you truly are. (I suspect that people who know your H know the real him.)

OK. That was probably a lot more nonprofessional psychology than you need. Remember, this not about you; it is about him. It is about him. It is about him. Work on yourself. Maintain your dignity. Stay in counselling. Protect yourself psychologically. Stay strong.

Sometimes a person has to take a big fall before he gets scared enough to face reality. It may be time to step back and watch while H self-destructs.

Take care, Estes

<small>[ March 29, 2003, 01:02 AM: Message edited by: Estes49 ]</small>

Hello everyone -

I have to be brief, because both sons are home and playing downstairs. Thank you ss for your support and prayers and thoughts - as much as I would like to attribute his behaviour to the presence of another woman (and there is that possibility), I have decided not to snoop - I don't think it is wise - I don't want to live my life on that level, and I am not ready to gather evidence for a divorce yet - also, I know that whatever I saw would upset me terribly and probably lead to confrontation which would be counter-productive. In other words, even if I did snoop, it would make no difference and probably make things worse, so i think I had better not.

What I have done is talk to my friend who works with the community centre, and I am going to go to the drop-in clinic on Thursday morning - use some excuse to get out of the house. I also talked again with our psychiatrist friend - he talked with me a long time, trying to convince me that my H is hurting and feeling the same as I am - alienated, depressed, hurt - trying hard to get me to see that if my H sees things from his own entrenched viewpoint, that is "normal" - and, he tried to point out to me that often, when we have a problem with our partner's behaviour, we often have a problem with that area ourselves - I have a problem with my H's temper, therefore, maybe I have a problem with my own temper (take the plank out of one's own eye first, in other words). I understand everything he is saying, but it works both ways - my H appears to believe that I have a problem with his temper so maybe, just maybe, he might have a little problem with his own temper as well. My H is feeling hurt and alienated - it might occur to him that I feel the same. If he thinks his own feelings are valid and justified, he might try to think that my feelings also are valid and justified. In my opinion, I have tried to see things from my H's point of view, but I see no evidence that my H concedes that I have feelings which are valid, let alone justified, or that he wants to try to DO something to rectify the damage he has done to our R by A) his temper and need to control and B) his secret involvements with other women. Until and unless I see evidence of this, I cannot trust him and try to rebuild our R. I ended up telling the psychiatrist that I had had enough and I need practical advice and a counselor with experience in dealing with abuse - he said he would try to find me someone by Monday. He tried to encourage me to persevere.

I also went to the electronics shop and looked at voice-activated tape recorders - I think it would be a good idea to have some evidence of his temper on tape, if that's possible.

As to H - he is now totally calm again. He is sweet and kind - has hugged me several times, is genuinely trying to be loving - going out of his way to be gentle - last night when I came in from rehearsal, he got up from watching television and made me a cup of tea, which he never does. He has kissed and hugged me and tried to talk and joke with me. I know that he can see my reticence.

I would just like to say that I would still like to save my marriage. I love my husband and I believe he is a good person. But he is deep inside his own problems which are distorting his view of reality and of other people. He could still get the right kind of help, and for all I know, it is possible that the IC he has is the right person - but his problems are such that it will take a long time to change his perceptions - the question is, will he have a marriage left by the time that day comes? I don't know.

Dear Estes - thank you for talking to me here - I got your e-mail and agree with you - I am going to take the step to be open, but I have to prepare the ground by warning all my friends that he has the password to my e-mail account - I will still be able to get private e-mail at work, but will only be able to access that at work. I want to live by example, but still feel the need to protect myself. I am thinking that I would also like to take this step within the context of being in MC with a new counselor - but that may take some time - I may do it within the month, though, regardless.

I do agree that H's view of reality is distorted - this is something I have always been aware of, since I am a close observer of his professional relations, as well as of his interactions with ordinary people - he perceives antagonism towards himself where there is none, and creates antagonism due to his aggressive defensiveness. You are right - this is about him, not about me. I just feel so tired sometimes. I find it hard to concentrate on myself and my own goals because I feel so tired. This is where being with a counselor who is skilled in the right way, I think, could help me.

I have to go now because the natives are getting restless. I am feeling very tired today, and I want everyone to know that I appreciate your support.

LIR

OK, I feel a lot calmer today and have had some thoughts that I'd like to share. ss - you asked about what my mom thought and I had a long talk with her yesterday - she is a wise woman who has been through an enormous amount herself. I called her partly for a "reality check" - on myself. Now, a mother is bound to be biased, but my mother is very objective and has already lost one son to mental illness, has suffered depression herself and knows all about my own periods of depression. Since my H made some comments in our counselling session about me and my character, I thought I would ask my mother about myself - what kind of person was I, what kind of child, what kind of temperament did I have as a child, and as a young woman. A loving mother is the keenest observer of a person's character traits (and sometimes one's harshest critic, as we all know).

Specifically, my H said that I was "so competitive that I couldn't stand anyone else having a differing opinion". My own feeling is that this describes him to a T, but is NOT me. I more often suffer from indecision, and haven't got tons of ambition to achieve - I am basically contented with the many blessings I see that I have. But I was raised in a talkative, intellectual household, and I am not afraid to say what I think, or to explore issues. I was raised to respect others and I expect respect back - it upsets me to find myself being steamrolled - if I feel that is happening, I say so. My mother said she would never describe me as competitive, but she said that I was the most "daring" of the three of us - although I appeared shy, I was not afraid to try new things because I was so curious. When we went to an airshow once, I was the only one who wanted to go up for a helicopter ride. I do think it is my curiosity which has got me into trouble - set me into relationships where angels fear to tread.

The second thing he said was that I have a temper I cannot control. This I feel so totally alien to me. I was the middle child of 3, and I grew up between a brother and sister who fought like a cat and a dog. My mother says that I was the peacemaker, who got along with both of them and in fact, made peace so that we could all get along. I sometimes lost my temper with my brother (he WAS difficult) - but even that was rare. I was not subdued - I genuinely loved both of them and found ways to have a good relationship with both of them. I was a very pleasant child who was not easily irritated - took things in my stride - which sounds a lot like my younger son. To be accused of "having a temper I cannot control" is very wierd. I know where he gets that from - its from when I had PND the first time - then I WAS explosive - but it was so un-me that I took myself to the doctor and said there was something wrong with me! The anger that has broken out of me over these years is due to the frustration I have felt at being controlled and my wishes and feelings ignored by my H. I'm sorry if this sounds like a cop-out, but it is not. I have learned to react differently now, but the pressure is still the same, and my H has not changed.

The last thing I need to say is that after talking to my mom, and thinking back over some of the things H has said, I feel concerned for H. It does look like he has a very distorted picture of "reality" at this point. He is a very creative person, and I sense that he is in trouble deep inside himself. Because of my experience with mental illness, I am aware that too much emotional stress on a person who is fragile inside can drive them up the peak towards breakdown, then they crash. I do not want H to crash. I do not want to push H up that peak further, until he crashes. He may crash himself without any extra push from me, though. But even if his perceptions at this time in our life together are askew, and that is unjust towards me, H's mental health is more important to me than what anyone else thinks of me. I cannot see that counselling has helped H at all - in fact, it seems to have made it worse. I am having the feeling that it is probably best to just drop it for now - leave things as they are and not mention counselling, e-mails, other women, etc. again - at least not for quite some time. Give things time to calm down.

And for me - get the right kind of help and advice, and continue to get my ducks in a row, in case things heat up and I can't cope with living with him.

So those are my thoughts for today. I had a good UK Mother's Day - I took my boys out for the day to visit a castle or two and we had a nice time - its sunny and all the daffodils are out. I'm looking forward to summer.

Thanks everyone for keeping up with me, and for all your prayers and good wishes. it really helps to know that others care and that when I am upset, there is someone to talk to who can help me see straighter.

LIR

Email if you need anything. I will be reading your posts here.

For clarification, does this quote refer to H's relationships with others, not just between the two of you?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">he perceives antagonism towards himself where there is none, and creates antagonism due to his aggressive defensiveness. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Estes

Hi LIR,

I'm still working ( in my mind) on another big post but I am trying to figure out if it would be of any benefit to you.

What your mother said should confirm your own mind to you. I kind of figured she could do that, and I think you needed to hear it from someone that knows you as well as a mother does.

I only have a minute before I go visit my parents, and would like to ask a few questions.

1. What do you feel will happen with your M in the next year?
I don't intend for you to answer this here on the forum. I wanted to ask you as a lead in for something else. I believe you already have an idea and answer to this question in your mind.

2. If you do have an idea of what may happen, what does this tell you about your chances of success based on your feelings and your faith in a good outcome?

I am not really sure if I have figured this out correctly but perhaps these questions will help you see where you are. I apologize if I cause any distress.

Your original idea for beginning counseling was to find out what he expected from marriage and see if it was similar to what you wanted and expected. The things I am working on are along these lines - what I expect, and what my W expects. I was wondering if you could write it up for your H and ask him to tell you what he thinks of it. I'll think about it more and get back to you.

I want to make some comments about your counseling experience but am prevented from discussing it now. Not sure why.

My biggest concern right now is for your mental health. I smile, I am not concerned that you may go crazy but more for your happiness and agility to smile, be happy from day to day, and give this same gift to your children. I don't know how to do any thing about that, so I continue to pray for you. Added fasting to prayer today for your family, hope you don't mind.

I am glad you are e-mailing Lisa. She is of like mind to you. Very smart, and she cares about you and has good advice. Sometime you should meet her and have a good visit in person. It would do a world of good for both of you.

I can hear W has come home, time to visit parents. I hope you are - I don't know what the right word is.......I hope you are doing better than just getting by. I know you probably won't say GRRRRREEEEAAAATTTTTTT like tony the tiger right now, but I hope you are up somewhat.

SS

Hello - just checking in here - I am home alone for the first time in ????? - a day off to myself with no children - at least until 3pm. Amazing. I'm trying to get my head sorted about what is the most important job for me to do today.

Dear Estes - things have calmed down, and thanks for keeping up with me - to clarify your question - he has this problem of perceiving antagonism with most people, not just with me. He has problems with people who call trying to sell you something on the phone, salesmen, the bank teller, city council building inspectors (when we were doing work on our house), colleagues, potential colleagues, policemen, the government, etc. - he comes in from work most days with a story about how awful someone was to him. It's like, he perceives the world as a hostile environment to him and everyone in it a potential enemy - you could say he has a huge chip on his shoulder. For example, he is currently upset about the fact that our neighbor dumps cigarette butts in the gutter - yes, dirty habit, but me, I would contact the city council first and go through the proper channels and complain - this is something that is starting to bug H every day, and he wants to go round there and tell them off himself - I am trying to caution him to be more moderate. That's my role in his life - trying to calm him down. I have been with him when we have had confrontations with strangers in the bank, in car parks, on the street - its like he sees himself as the world's policeman - has to tell someone they jumped the queue, parked in the wrong place, spit on the pavement - he can't just let things be and not get involved.

Now, this sounds like my older son - who I suspect has some tendencies towards Asperger's syndrome - a type of autism - its possible there is something to this - some underlying cause for this behaviour other than just being a total pain in the **s. I am trying to get my older son to see things from other's point of view, but it is very difficult. I worry about older son - what he will be like when he is older and what kind of personal problems he might have. But I look at him, and look at my H, and without trying to toot my own horn - I am praying that older son will benefit from having me as a mother rather than the parents my H had. My H's parents NEVER talk about feelings - and I know they NEVER talked to him about how he felt, or were ever interested in the slightest in what he thought. When I say never, I MEAN NEVER. Not a sausage. So whereas I take the time to talk to older son when he has conflicts with younger brother, or people at school (he has found himself having problems at boarding school for taking it upon himself to tell the others in his dorm to shut up and stay in bed), H never had anyone to talk to - it makes sense that he would become entrenched in the view that the world is a hostile place and that no-one cares what he thinks or feels, to the point where he no longer knows himself what he thinks or feels.

I know this is all a bit amateur psychology, and perhaps, rationalization - but I have to try to understand - I am driven to try to understand, and I am a close observer of behaviour, and I see similarities between him and OS. Also, both my H's parents are very emotionally detached people - Grandad is downright wooden (although there is feeling hidden underneath), Granny is uncomprehending where other's feelings are concerned, almost as if she is not aware that there are such things as other's feelings - for her, there is only "doing" and for her, "doing" means doing it her way. She is obsessive about routine - like I have said before, my in-laws behaviour and adherence to routine is the topic of intense discussion in the family. Its so wierd that everyone notices it - anyone who comes into contact with them. So - perhaps SHE has some sort of autism. Attachment to routine is a characteristic of Asperger's. I don't think my H has that quality, but my OS does. But if my H was raised by someone who was autistic in some way, it would not be surprising that he emerged damaged and with a skewed world view.

The thing is - none of this has anything to do with me - these are things that are within my H's family of origin - not mine. My own family has a different set of problems.

I am trying to get my head around what could actually be going on here.

Dear ss - thanks for all your prayers and thoughts. I'm not sure I can answer your questions - yes, it is good that you remind me of what I wanted out of counseling - the answer to the question - what does HE want out of a relationship - what kind of a relationship does he want? In all the turmoil I had forgotten that I asked this question and would like to have some kind of answer.

That provokes me to ask myself what I want and try to answer my own question. I am not sure that I have any idea where we will be a year from now - I will try to start thinking about that - is that what you wanted me to do? Think about it, I mean?

The strange thing is that H seems like he is "back to normal". He seems cheerful enough, and getting on with work. Yesterday he worked all day (Sunday) - it was UK Mother's Day - of course, there were no flowers, card, or present, nothing special. I took the boys out myself - they both gave me flowers they picked in the garden, and YS gave me a little basket with a chocolate in it which he had made at school - they are so full of love, they beamed their smiling faces at me at the pleasure it gave them to say "I love you" to me - it was wonderful. But H didn't get home until 9pm - and he brought me a feather - a long, brown feather - a pretty feather he had found. He gave it to me, and then said "I was looking at all the flowers for sale everywhere - in the petrol stations - at the side of the road, and thinking too bad I can't give C (his brother) flowers for his birthday (it was Saturday - he didn't tell me it was BIL's birthday) - I didn't realize until this evening that it was Mother's Day!" Like it was a big joke. "Well," I said, "Did you send your mother a card?" No. "Well, perhaps you should call her now - I know its not a big thing for you, but it might be important to her." He went off and called her. That's all. Well, I have always reminded him that it was Mother's Day, so he wouldn't forget her - this year, I decided to say nothing - and he didn't notice. He just doesn't notice anything that isn't immediately relevant to him - he's very selfish. You could say he doesn't actually mean to be, but that is what happens - he neglects others because he never thinks about anything except his own concerns - his work and sometimes his children. He won't mention it again. But I think I am just going to stand back now and let this kind of thing happen - birthdays, anniversary, all those things. Let him stand on his own two feet. Not bother him much.

So that's it really - just have to keep going on - and see how it pans out, and try not to get too stressed about stuff - and learn to walk away when he gets strung out. Not take it on - and let him implode, if he is going to persist in doing stuff behind my back. If he does continue to do stuff behind my back, at some point, it is going to catch up with him. And in the end, he is the one who will have to live with himself. Today I feel philosophical.

Tomorrow I see my counselor again - and I wonder what she will say. Will update as soon as I can.

Thank you all for your prayers and support - I appreciate it so much.

LIR

<small>[ March 31, 2003, 05:00 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

Well, my counselor ended her "work" with me last night. She said that after what happened last week, that she had discussed things with her supervisor and felt that she could not continue working with me and be able to remain objective. Her words were that she felt she would be "colluding" with me. I take this to mean that since she has now seen, and experienced herself, my H in action, she would sympathize with me too much and not be able to remain detached enough to try to see things from his point of view. So she said that she could no longer continue to counsel me.

She also said that she felt that I had a strong "inner strength" and that one of my strengths was that I seemed to be able to sort things out rationally to understand what was at the bottom of actions and behviours. She felt that my husband was not capable of making any progress towards working on the relationship at this point and nothing could be done unless he was willing, which he is obviously not. She also said that he was very verbally abusive to me in the session. She also said that he is clearly "projecting" on to me his own problems.

So that's that. We discussed where I should go from here, and she agreed that getting practical advice was the best option.

As to yesterday - my H's new "friend" - suspect OW3, came down and spent the whole day with him, here. She showed up at lunch time, and they spent the afternoon making music together. They are both highly trained professional musicians, so this is not, on the surface, something I should object to. I was very pleasant, and served lunch for the three of us. She is about 50 (or older), quite nice, with frizzy gray hair that sticks out from her head! Nice person - I feel pity for her if she is getting emotionally involved with my H. Intuition? Intuition said this woman smiled at me a little too hard - she was not what I would call 100% relaxed - there were awkward silences. But I carried on as if I knew or suspected absolutely nothing.

In fact, I went dancing last night - I left the house at 6 for my counselling appointment, then went on to choir rehearsal. Choir rehearsal turned out not to be happening (I had forgot), so I rang up my girlfriend who had tried to twist my arm earlier in the day to go out with her and some friends for a drink, and then to salsa club. So I did - I went out with her and her other two girlfriends and then we all went to salsa class - I had a really nice time.

When I got home, at 10pm, my YS was still awake, having just gone to bed. It turned out that my H's "friend" had stayed for dinner after I left (my H cooked - bet that made a great impression!) - then my OS had rung from his boarding school to demand his overnight bag so he could pack his stuff to come home today - so they had all gone over to his boarding house together to take him his bag, then come back for dinner. So she spent a nice comfy evening with my H and sons. Great!
If she was just a professional friend, don't you think she would have said, it's time for me to be getting back home (to London - a 2hr drive), instead of staying all day and all evening and leaving just before I came home?

Hmmmmmmmm.

LIR

Hope you don't mind if I post my 2cents worth here but your husband sounds a lot like he has male depression. Depression manifests itself differently for men than for women, the anger, distortion, etc. Please do some research on the net and see if this could be his problem.

Take care,

Kind of difficult to start today. It won't be a normal post for me.

Often I try to say things nicely and I go on and on, but today I think I'll be more blunt.
Now, having said this, it doesn't mean I am right.

I did not think your counselor would be finished with you, I had hoped she would have a way to help you get over the trauma of what happened, and have advice for you on how to better cope with H. I wonder if she is finished because she doesn't know how to help you with him. I wonder what your feelings were when she told you.

When I asked the question about where you thought you would be a year from now, I wondered if you had already made up your mind, and intended to get ready for the worst.

To be honest, I considered counseling to be your best hope, and now I am not sure what you plan to do. You have as much said that you can't go on as things are, and from what has happened, and what your counselor has said, I can't see real hope for change in the next 4 to 6 months, perhaps longer.

It almost seems to me (and I base this on a comparison of myself to your H) that he is happy now because he got out of a situation where he might have had to change. Now it looks like there is no pressure on him ( from outside the M, and he feels he can continue to cope with you) he is happy again.

You sound like you don't know where to go from here. I can't see it either. You can stay and cope or you can leave. You don't feel you can leave, so where does that get you? Feeling trapped.
I wonder if you have just resigned your self to waiting because there doesn't seem to be any other option. I have said ( to myself,) " If she snooped, and he was in EA #3, she could just close things up and be done with it." I believe that is one reason you don't snoop, you are not ready to take that step. You don't want to know - not yet, until you are ready. I also worry about your continued ability to cope with things as they are. I am afraid that one of these days when you are down, you are going to blow things wide open and mess up your timing. You are getting better, perhaps I worry in vain. ( I hope I do. )

I am not seeing good signs from your H. I am not seeing someone that wants to heal their marriage. Does he still not know what is going on? I am becoming more sure that if he does not know, it is because he choose not to know. His refusal to along with the counselor shows me that he was looking for a way out of changing so he set it up to fail. You have had similar thoughts. Go to this thread and read the comments from KaylaAndy on what happens if they are threatened to have to give up their lifestyle.
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=29;t=002624;p=3
Go down to KA's post at 9:49 PM PM April 1st. When I read it, I thought of your H and the counseling. It did seem he tried to do everything he could to prevent it from working.

LIR, you are a very tough girl. You know your choices and to me it looks like a continued difficult time for you, and that is true no matter which choice you make.

I don't know why I am even doing this post, I can't see how it will help you much. I suppose I wanted to say some things that were on my mind. I am a little angry with your H, he has been given so many chances. ( And besides, he is making us guys look bad !)

I know if you stay you will continue to work at improving things, that's the only way you can do it. You may soft sell it, but you will keep working on it.

I did bring up your thoughts about what you wanted out of M, and what H wanted for a reason. As you keep working, you will need an angle. If my increasingly negative feelings about your H are correct, he won't really give you a list of what he wants ( could be used against him) but if you list what you want, he will pick it apart and try to show how wrong you are.
I believe if he does give a list, it will be list for show, and won't be real.
If you do come up with a list, be careful with the wording, think of how he may use it and keep in mind conversations with buddy.

Don't know what to say about your visitor. You can snoop, and know, or you can wait and prepare. Your observations seem to be accurate though.

I don't know, maybe you are just giving him enough rope so he can do it to himself.

Sorry for the bad stuff in this post. I wanted to say some things straight out.
I hope you can pick it apart for me. I can't say that I like it very much.

In closing, all the good things said in the past are true. There is always hope, God is real, and so are his promises. I strongly believe you are going the right direction. Even though dark clouds appear, the time always comes when sunshine floods the earth. Your day in the sun will come, but until then, collect umbrellas, and use them well.
Thank goodness for friends, and salsa classes.

SS

"Ya did good" LIR,

Well done! Especially since there was no use reacting to them or even getting mad. You couldn't have changed things for the better, anyway. Are you a good dancer? I'm not.

IMHO, your counselor put everything into a tidy little capsule. As you know, that is pretty much my take on things, too. (Where do I apply for my license? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

I don't like the way she just dismissed you, though, without suggestions for future support. I still think you need a counselor with whom to talk your feelings through, an IC not a MC. Please consider that.

The war is so sad.

Take care,
Estes

PS: We had a great Celtic Festival last weekend - bagpipers, kilts, genealogy workshops, Gaelic workshops, clan stuff, jewelry <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> , Irish dancers, scones, a doggie parade with prizes for the best costumed dog, haggis <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> . It was fun.

Hello LIR,
Thought I would check in again and chat a little bit.

It is good to hear from Estes, and Estes, how is your son? I can't remember an update in the last little while, but I may have missed it. I hope you are well also, but I take that for granted, you seem to do well all the time now.

LIR,
I thought more on what "I" would do if I was in your shoes. Probably I would keep trying as long as I was there whether I believed there was hope or not. I can't read your mind but knowing you, I suppose it is what you will do. After considering it at length, I have no idea of your next angle, but since I talk a lot, I am going to say some things . I have said before, I come up with lots of ideas, and I hope some of it can be useful. As always, these are just ideas.

I was thinking this morning about your H and what he wants. I was pretty hard on him last post, something I never intended and probably I should not have gone that direction. All of us have faults, and good points. I believe you will get much further and be much happier with the time you spend with him if you will be positive. ( I know you already know this, so this is just review, or background to set up the rest of the post) Abraham Lincoln said " if you look for the bad in people, expecting to find it, you certainly will." I think once you listed good qualities about H, I believe it would make the next year much easier if you would find these things again. I am not sure if you are still saying something positive daily to him as you mentioned last summer that you were doing. I hope the negative these last few months has not made that seem hollow and fake to you. If God was to look in on him, I believe he could find some positives, and I am sure you can still find good each day also. Remember that you have an enemy that wants you to always be negative and only see negative about H.

Perhaps it would be good if you could list some things you want from the marriage that H could agree with. Things that you are close to agreement about and would only need a little work to reach POJA about and work on those, and save the hard ones for later. Remember, I am just trying to put ideas in your mind, not tell you ought to or have to do any of this. ( I hope you are still working on the things you know you can change though, that will give you a sense of accomplishment.)

I am going to list some of the things W and I have as goals for our M and things we work on. I am not going to list the things that come from HNHN or this site, because you already can look them up and read them. We do have POJA and meeting needs as goals.
These are not things I feel you need to have as your own goals, I list them for an example of other things you could say besides "No friendships with those of the opposite sex."

1. Our marriage is the most important thing in our lives next to God.
It comes before friends, family, jobs, or any thing else. If we have conflicts in our lives, we use this as the basis to resolve them. Strengthening the M is first. Sometimes others listed are more important on a given day ( the day the babies are born, we don't go on a date, we take care of the baby and the mother.) But long term, the marriage comes first.

2. We pray together daily and we pray singly for the success of our marriage. Someone said once that along with praying to marry the one you love, you should always pray to be able to love the one you marry. I have to pray daily that I will be able to repent and improve so my W will still want me. She does the same so I will want her. We pray together each night before we sleep for our children, and for each other.

3. Listen to each other.
We are so different that we soon get off track and have bad feelings unless we talk regularly and learn to really listen. We listen to understand the others feelings, not to get our point of view across. We really want to understand the others feelings because we love each other and care about how the other feels, even if they feel differently than we do.

4. Avoid nagging.
We each have our own faults, and know that improving ourselves is something we have power over, while we have no power to improve the other. So, we can talk about things that bother us from time to time in a formal conversation, but between, we seek to praise the other and improve ourselves, not to tear down the other person. Another way to say this is " Keep conversation and comments positive" or from the movie Bambi " if you can't say something nice, don't say noth'in at all."

5. Keep our courtship alive by dating and continued kindness to each other.
We try to date weekly. We treasure time together. Doing number 4 has made it so that we crave the time we get with just the two of us. One of the reasons that we do it is so our children will know how important we see our marriage. We have explained to them that in order to be good parents, we have to remain in love and have a strong marriage. A year ago, it was hard for me to find ways to impress her. Now it comes much more natural, and it is fun to see her eyes light up and her smile when I do some nice thing.

6. Be quick to say "I'm sorry."
We try to do this even if we don't think we are at fault. Usually one is not totally at fault but until one of us says sorry there are bad feelings. After one says sorry, the feelings seem to go away, and the other is quick to say " it's not all of your fault, it was partly mine." Sometimes we have to take a time out, but our goal is to make our marriage stronger, and to be in love and we can't do this when angry at each other.

7 Live within our means.
I read an article once where the person quoted the American Bar Association statistics that show that ( at the time the article was written) 89% of all divorces were over money. This has been a very sore spot in our marriage, and we seem to do much better now. I know it is a concern of yours, but your problem is much harder to deal with. I know with you it is not over money, but it is over the fact that you are kept locked out of a room of the marriage house that should be shared, it is over emotional distance that comes from that lockout.

8. Share home and family responsibilities.
If one is still working, the other is working also. There are not your jobs, and my jobs, because we have a partnership. We have "our jobs" .

This is not a hard and fast rule. If she is feeling low, she can go to bed early and I do the work. If I am really tired when I come home, she may say "I'll take care of it tonight, you sit and rest." Because she knows I would help, she is happy, and because I love her, I let her rest when she is not doing well.

Dialogue:
LIR: If we were totally in love and had the perfect marriage, what would it look like to you?

H: What do you mean?

LIR: Well, what things make the perfect marriage? I have listed some of mine, I want to know some of yours.

Well LIR,
These things go along closely with the stuff that DR Harley teaches but they are in our words.
I'll continue to pray for you and your family. Continued best wishes.

SS

<small>[ April 06, 2003, 07:52 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

I just want to thank everyone who responded to me this last week - even though I have not been able to check in and post, I did read everything that was written to me and I appreciate all the support. I can't reply in depth because I only have a few minutes while H is out, picking up a hire car (he is taking our car in to get some work done) - yes, ss, you had some "home truths" to say about my H, and although you felt bad about that, your feelings reflect what I have gone through for so many years - what seems like endlessly trying to understand and forgive, then finally getting frustrated and feeling like giving up.
I AM glad you came back with the thoughts of 6 April - I am going to cut and paste this into a document for myself - I can tell you that I have tried to shift our R around from his "self" centered way of living to your approach, but I have failed. For example, I have asked him to pray with me (I did this before he started having EAs), both on the "everyday" level, and at crisis times, and he refuses every time. It doesn't mean I shouldn't try again, but it is discouraging to fail over and over again. You are right, though - when you look for the negative, you find it - and I am indeed looking and finding negatives. After so long, I am finding it difficult to feel anything, or see anything positive about him. That doesn't mean it isn't there, but the one BIG negative - dishonesty - seems to cancel out all other positives.

I am not saying (today) that all is lost, though - I tried last night to tell him how I feel, and today, he is more "there" - he has been distant and uncommunicative and not touching me at all since our last joint counselling session. I have been the same with him. Last night, though, I made an attempt to explain myself, basically saying that he couldn't expect me to "act normal" when I could see that he didn't love me anymore and that there really was nothing left between us. I said I was very sad and depressed by what is happening to us. He said he didn't know what I meant - that nothing is happening between us - I said, yes, that's exactly it - there IS nothing between us anymore. He was just going out, and when he came back, nothing more was said. But today, he is friendlier with me - I would say he is trying. I think this gives me some hope.

ss -so many of the things you say about you and your wife sound so much like us - and I have to remember that perhaps because we are so different, he REALLY doesn't understand me in the way that I think is so obvious, and vice versa. So there is mutual intense sadness and frustration on both sides. Maybe there is still hope. But I do feel I need to take care of the practicalities and not trust in hope.

I have to go now, but please know that the time you have taken to post has not been wasted.

I will be back when I can.
Take care,
LIR