Dear MB Friends,

I haven't posted for a while, the last time being when I got a Christmas time e-mail chain greeting from the OM which is printed below:

"They say it takes a minute to find a special person, an hour to appreciate them, but then an entire life to forget them. Send this phrase to the people you will never forget and remember to send it also to the person who sent it to you. It
is a short message to let them know that you will never forget them. If you do not send it to anyone, it means you are in a hurry and that you have forgotten your friends.

Jack, Merry Christmas to you and your family and have a great new year.
Regards,
Joe."

I posted it asking for comments which ranged from that's pretty cheesy to do what ever makes you feel good. So after a a while I sent the following:

"Joe,
Your note took me by surprise and I have been pondering for a long time whether to respond or what to say if I did. I could only think the simple truth, that I loved and valued you as much as any friend I ever had. There is nothing I would not have done for you or your family. I know this is true because even in the middle of all the bitter pain and devastation there were even times when I wondered how you might be doing. I guess I still felt like a friend no matter how badly it hurt. The past year has been a rough one, as rough as they ever got in my case. It was hard enough to deal with one betrayal much less two and at times I wasn’t sure which one was worse. One became the subject of wondrous healing and renewal, but the other remained a sad and lonely void. Maybe that is because I could see how I had failed in some areas of my life but I could never see how I had failed as a friend. Even as all the sad and painful details were revealed to me I kept wondering was there no point when you said, hey wait, this man is my best friend, he has shown me nothing but kindness, I can’t do this to him? I could not understand how a friendship which meant so much to me could have meant so little to you to the point where it counted for nothing.

I struggled so with trying to understand why in light of what was happening you spent so much time with me playing golf and having drinks and dinner and having great fun doing all the usual friendship kind of stuff. I have never been involved in something like this but it seems to me I would want to keep the other guy a thousand miles away , much less pal around with him. It made it all the more painful and turned otherwise happy memories into one long continued nightmare. I remembered how on the day before I found out our families were all seated at the Thanksgiving table at my house and I shuddered at how much harm this could have caused the children, yours and mine. Little Joe and Tommy are such good friends you can feel their warmth and tell they will probably be life long friends and I am happy for them but sad for us that we could not have been the same. Perhaps they will get it right, and maybe that is the saving grace, that it can be kept from destroying them like it destroyed us.

Finally, Joe, I have to tell you that even in the face of everything an apology sure would have helped. I was so sure I would get one I checked my mailbox for a month and when it never came I had to face what I dreaded most, you weren’t sorry. I thought by extending my forgiveness first it would make it easier {note to MB'rs- I sent a forgiveness card a month after d-day}but the holiday card you sent in return was so disappointing. But that is the good thing about forgiveness, you can forgive someone whether they ask for it or not and its vitality is the same.

In the end these things are so cruel and foolish and everyone gets so hurt that they defy an answer. In my case I have finally come to accept that “no answer” is also an answer. I am far from understanding life either, but I know that it is so rich and that each of us is so fortunate to be able to live wherever we want, work where we want, pursue whatever interests us, believe what we want, and enjoy its many forms of happiness so fully, that I have always believed that the very least we can do is not harm anyone else in the process. No one’s happiness should ever have to come at another’s expense. Some of the ideals I believed in have been lost forever, but not this.

I have probably said too much and maybe it is nothing you don’t know already. Maybe the traditional New Year’s song contains all the advice we need, "should old acquaintance be forgot and never brought to mind," but as your note suggested it may take a while. Good luck in the New Year I hope everything works out well for you.

Jack"

So last week I get the following:

"Hi Jack,
Well, right off, I am deeply sorry and regret my actions. I realize that
these few words will never right the wrong that I have done. I am totally
aware of the hurt that I have caused you and your family. This is the same
hurt that I have caused for me. It hurts very very bad. There is nothing
worse than losing the trust of one's best friend, when this happens one
loses
ones best friend, that hurts deeply. For that and my stupid actions I am
sorry and will carry the terrible feeling with me for the rest of my life.
Jack, I regret my actions and there is nothing that I can do about it now.
Please realize that I miss you as a great friend and realize that I am aware
that you will never accept me into your life as our friendship was, if ever.
And I don't blame you. I have wanted to talk to you many times over the last
year and I am so ashamed that I have not contacted you in any way, believe
me
when I say that I have wanted to. I have wanted to ease the hurt that I have
caused you and have wanted to try and help myself, ( I am not quite sure
what
that means or how to do it ). This is a release for me in writing this to
you
and I should have done this sooner. I am not sure where to go from here.
Again I regret my actions deeply. The events that took place have gone
nowhere and never will. Thank you for the opening to let me converse some
thoughts.
Regards,
Joe"

So now I feel like burying the hatchet but guess who is mad? My W! She feels liek she is being betrayed, is jealous, "he never wrote me a letter like that," and thinks his remorse come at her expense. In other words the more he says he made a great mistake the more he seems to be saying his friendship with me is what he values most. Additionally OM has new flame, took less than a month, and W feels like she is "replacable," but Jack isn't. So she feels like crap. My dilemma is that I "lost" a marriage and a best friend. I have "fixed" the marriage, it has been better than ever, so why can't I fix the friendship? Then the nightmare is over for me all is restored. It feels like I have the capacity to overcome everything, so why not employ it? THe other thing is thta if W has told me once she has told me a dozen times that one of her greatest regrets is that she destroyed this freidnship of mine, so now I can get it back and say no harm done, and whoa, she says, hold on, maybe its better destroyed! I just can't figure it out, so I came back to th "well" one more time. Sorry for the lenghth.

JACK218

Married 25 years, dday Nov 02, OM was best friend of 15 years, A was 2 years long, W and I went to Retrouvaille, no contact observed faithfully, marriage has been great.

Jack-

I just want to commend you on your power for forgiveness. It takes a REAL strong person to be able to offer the gift that you are willing to give.

Your wife's reaction is based on unresolved issues in herself. She is thinking that it's all about HER. Her remorse should be incorporating the things that are necessary for YOU to heal. Unfortunately, part of recovery means POJA and radical honesty. You BOTH need to come to a mutual decision about this in order for it to work out.

You can offer forgiveness to this man. It sounds as if he is sincere. I'm not certain if allowing the freindship to bloom will work without your wife on board.

Good Luck and thanks for the update.

DON'T fix the friendship! Forgiveness is one thing, reconciliation another. How can your wife continue NC if he is your friend? If I was your wife, I would think you were putting his friendship above me. No, no, no!

Is that strong enough?

Your post has brought tears to my eyes and thank you. My XW was having an affait with my best friend and move in with him straight from my bed to his. He has shown no signs of regret or remorse and has lied straight to my face on many occassions.

I think it will always hurt and has changed all of my friendships.

Curiously. How do your mutual friends perceive Joe?

Jack218,

Have you spoken with a therapist about your current situation? Do you really wish to invite Joe back into you and your wife's lives? What is your motivation?

How was retrouvaille? I credit Retrouvaille with providing us the tools to save our marriage. Frankly, I am suprised that Retouvaille gets so little press.

During the past three months, on a weekly basis, I have been stocking very small numbers of Retrouvaille brochures (spanish & english) in our church's information rack. Can you believe that in three months over 70 brochures have been taken? Our parish only has about 1,300 families.

Jack, I truly feel that there are so many couples out there with a thirst for healing.

http://www.retrouvaille.org/

Jack-

In this case it might be best if you let the sleeping dog lie, so to speak. IMO, bringing this person back into your life could potentially harm your M unnecessarily. What this guy did was beyond selfish, so he should expect nothing from you. Just because your capacity for forgiveness is so great doesn't mean you can expect the same from your W.

Thanks all, KIly what is POJA?, JohnH-thanks for slap in the face, its one of the things I love about my MB buddies, IDIDIT - best friend scenario is the worst maybe topped only by brother or sister, hang in there though, you gotta forgive whether they ask or deserve it, in the end you do it for you, JIMTEX - yes seeing shrink tomorrow but wanted to screen it here first! Litchfield-I am not going to let Joe back in as friends, I think I could but like you I think it would be no good for W, I think I just want to hug him and say peace and move on.

JACK218

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She feels liek she is being betrayed, is jealous, "he never wrote me a letter like that," and thinks his remorse come at her expense. In other words the more he says he made a great mistake the more he seems to be saying his friendship with me is what he values most. Additionally OM has new flame, took less than a month, and W feels like she is "replaceable," but Jack isn't.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Consider this emotional revelation, as the opportunity to inform her that what she is feeling is EXACTLY what you felt when she had her A with Joe. It could be a great step in her developing true empathy and not simply simpathy for your ordeal.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">what is POJA?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Policy Of Joint Agreement. If you wish to know more, here is the link: The Policy Of Joint Agreement

TOOMUCHCOFFEE,

Yeah, good point, fine line between empathy and sympathy too. JIMTEX, sorry I missed your question on Retrouvaille, it was the best, and a real key to recovery for us. I am not very religious either and have told everyone I know not to worry about that, the program is great for all.

Jack

Hi Jack,

This is just my spin on why your wife leans toward leaving the freindship destroyed as opposed to reparing it.

I think for her, it would squealch any lingering fantasies she has left about the affair and OM. It would say the whole thing was truly a fantasy and never anything else.

And I tend to believe she may want to hang on to the idea it wasn't, but can't if you and he repair the friendship.

There may also be an element of realization that she would be placed in a uncomfortable situation. With you and him becoming close again and her having to eventually face him as your friend.

Just some thoughts.

Best,
Jo

Jack honey....

Mr. Pepper had an 18 month PA with the wife of his best friend. The intense EA started at least 6 months prior, but, I believe it was actually an EA years and years earlier .... off and on flirting.

Mr. P apologized in person to his friend in my presence. Otherwise, no welcome-home Mr. Pep from me.

I would be highly offended if my H tried to re-kindle a friendship with OW's H .... even after all these (7) years. Let this wound heal without picking at it any further. I thought your letter to him was outstanding. Forgive, and move along. Do not back up. (see my tag line).

This is my comment to your wife after her remark..... "he never wrote me a letter like that" ..... SHUT-UP...... this was a blessing to your husband Jack .... and you have the callous, rude, selfishess to make this about YOU????? SHUT-UP and say a prayer of thanks that you have been blessed with a husband who expresses such love and grace to forgive you and your lover for your adulterous betrayal of everything Jack holds sacred. JUST SHUT .......UP!

Thanks jack, for passing that along to her. She is a woman who cannot see the value of what she has because she is still busy looking at what she didn't "get". Shame on her. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Pep

<small>[ March 13, 2003, 03:15 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Thanks all, and good old Pepper pulling no punches, ouch! Monday I'll let you know what my shrink says. So far I think I need a limited form a reconcilation to finally purge all the demons. Maybe a short beer or a handshake, a broken arrow or something. Then nothing else. One buddy told me once that what it seemed like to him was that I was trying desperately to return a"pre-affair state" where W and I had a relationship, Joe and I had a relationship, and W and Joe had no relationship. Seems like I am getting close. Incidentally, IDITBEFORE asked what our mutual friends thought of Joe, note that Joe has kept the secret, and so has W, no one knows, and note in Joe's letter he pledges to continue to do so.

JACK

jack
Your letter was amazing and very touching. I am sure it touched your friend that you have so much classafter all that has been done to you. I understand your loss of a best friend and how deeply that hurts.
I dont think you can ever go back, because your friend and wife have changed that relationship forever. You have changed in the process and so have your friend and wife.
I dont think your wife is jelous, I think she knows what this could do to your healing marriage and the uncomfortable feelings it may bring back into your life.
I dont know all of the story but if this friend is married, being with your family or you again would not be very healing to them either.
some of us have to have contact and face social situations and have muddled through it, but if you dont have to maybe its best to let it go.
I think you may have to accept the loss of your friend in exchange for your renewed marriage.

Your wife should truly be thankful to have you. I hope things continue to go well. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
I think it took om three years to say I am sorry to my husband, and now they work together and do very well at it.
I made my apologies about a year and a half later when our daughter brought us face to face again.Things are ok, My husband and I have made it and his wife and he have sorta made it, he hasnt changed much , but this has brought alot of healing for my husband and my self.

I have a question, how do you know if you restore the friendship, you wont be throwing your wife and he back together again... are you really ok with your healing enough that it wont bother you to be with him ?
I wish you luck <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Answering your question Mom of Five, I do fear renewal of W's and OM's friendship, no contact has been a savior for me and for the marriage and I have steadfastly insisted upon it. The downside however is that I have always felt like the angry king who locks his queen in the tower, she is safely mine but I don't know what her choice is until I release her. Plus she may need a "triumph" of her own so to speak, the ability to confront OM and shrug him off on her own terms. These are hard questions.
Jack

jack:

"Answering your question Mom of Five, I do fear renewal of W's and OM's friendship, no contact has been a savior for me and for the marriage and I have steadfastly insisted upon it."

I wish I had that! But after 14 months, RM still consults for my W. I don't know how much longer I can stand the contact continuing, but at least I'm led to believe it's not personal anymore. But it has gone on for 2long already. He wasn't any friend of mine, either, and now he could never be.

"The downside however is that I have always felt like the angry king who locks his queen in the tower, she is safely mine but I don't know what her choice is until I release her. Plus she may need a "triumph" of her own so to speak, the ability to confront OM and shrug him off on her own terms."

Didn't she do this by giving you the gift of NC? Or was that forced on her? I don't believe it was, from my feeble memory of your old posts. Let it go.

A similar story. I ran into a friend I hadn't seen in almost 10 years, just before my 50th birthday party. He was my best friend for about 15 years before that. He had stopped talking to me because his W got angry with my W for something stupid, and I told him I thought it was. So, this time around, he came up to me, I hadn't noticed him, and seemed to want to be old buddies again. I was friendly and talked to him for a while, but it never occurred to me to invite him over for my 50th B-day party. And I don't regret not inviting him either.

Just like post-DV. There are a lot of potential "best friend fishies" in the sea, Jack. And just like DV, you can't really expect to be friends with someone that lied to you and betrayed you like that.

Good to hear from you again,
-Qfwfq (fka 2long)