Thanks, MTD. It's okay if ya don't remember details, I was just curious really. Every situation is different, I realize, so just because something worked for you or the timetable is similar, doesn't mean it's going to happen the same way at all with W and I. But of course, yeah, any extra insight is always great.

Last week was definitely the strongest it's been yet, regarding her expressing her feelings about herself, and being upset with herself in a lot of ways. Unfortunately I have no idea how strong her R with OM is, though I feel it's still holding pretty strong and that is a major stumbling block right now. If that were to end, I would have a much better chance of saving this marriage.

I hope she is serious when she tells me she doesn't see it lasting with OM. I hope that's not fogspeak just to try and downplay her relationship with him to make me feel better or to make her seem like a better person. I just don't think she WOULD honestly tell me she had planned a future with him as she feels that would hurt me too much, and she's hurt me enough already. Honestly though, as much as it would hurt I'd rather hear the truth. It just doesn't make sense to me for her to be with someone she doesn't feel she has a future with, so I have to think that she hasn't totally ruled that out.

I do think she is realizing she will miss me if we get the D. I don't know if that will be enough to convince her to try again, but it's something. It's been 9 days since we have communicated at all now, so I'm doing okay. Solid 9 days with NC. I guess that's good, she hasn't made an effort to bring by Dv papers or anything. She must be thinking it all over.

So I guess I'm already in Plan B a little bit now, though I didn't send a letter. I don't know if I'll have a chance to give her any more great Plan A moments, everything I've tried to do to interact with her she's turned down. Every time I have seen her since she moved out, it's been at this house.

Like your W, I feel my wife's guilt is a big roadblock for her. She not only is holding onto past mistakes I have made, but I think she is also being hard on herself for what happened, too. She told me openly that she does not like herself as a person, that she feels horrible about herself and carries a lot of guilt. I did my best to work on that with her, perhaps alleviating that guilt will not make it easier for her to stay with OM, perhaps it will have the opposite effect and make her more comfortable to come home.

Anyway, get back to me when ya can, I'm gonna go practice some more guitar (I learned to play "Blister In The Sun" today...I am the coolest. heheh)

ALS

Just figured I'd do a status check, give myself a bump, and get a few opinions here.

So, everyone think I should keep going on this path? Today marks 11 days since ANY communication with my W at all (I am pretty sure this is the longest since D-Day). Even though I didn't send an official Plan B letter, it's starting to feel like Plan B has sort of just started here anyway. But that's okay, I do feel a little bit stronger with each passing day.

I must admit, it's curious that 11 days ago, I was very accepting (more than I should have been, probably) of my W's plea for me to sign Dv papers, yet she has not made a step towards me to get them signed now.

As you might recall, after our last huge conversation, in the end, she asked if we could talk more sometime. I told her that I would love to, and that she should get in touch with ME whenever she wanted to do that. So I basically left the door open to her to contact me when she was ready.

So, the question is this -- You all think I should keep up with the NC and take a wait and see attitude? I'm certainly not breaking down here with the NC, I'm doing well on my own, I just want to hear some opinions...If anyone thinks NOT contacting her could be a bad idea, I'd like to know. I'm hopeful that taking this NC stance will sort of show her that I am okay on my own and that I am willing to give her the space she needs. I just don't want her to get the idea that I don't care though, or that I don't want to talk more. I felt like finally talking about all of our issues was a big step.

I remain hopeful that she will contact me to talk more about us, and not to get the divorce papers done, but I'm still prepared for anything.

So, am I doing the right thing here in just waiting it out?

ALS

ALS:

Quickly:

♠ I don't think you're ready for plan B yet, but I may be in the minority. You don't want a DV, and I don't think you're ready for that possible outcome of plan B YET. You have to be prepared for that first.

♠I gather that you not contacting her first is a means of keeping the pressure off her, not "force her" to see what life without you would be like (plan B). This is your call. Contact her if you want, is my opinion. Don't contact her if you don't want. Just don't expect anything if you do.

-Qfwfq

Yeah, it's yet another weird situation I've found myself in. I wish I could just stick to a cut and dry plan with all of this, but I keep having all of these second thoughts about Plan B, or even what I'm doing now.

Plan B wouldn't be a lot different than what I'm doing right now, been 11 days with absolutely NO contact and that's been going fine for me. Just so long as my W doesn't think I'm not interested in even talking anymore due to my NC. I would love to be able to let her know I'd like to talk about us some more, since she expressed interest in that when she left the house last time, but I did tell her at that point that she should get in touch with me when she wants to do that. So I'm thinking maybe I should just wait it out as long as I can, but I do worry that instead of contacting me again to talk, it might just be with divorce papers in hand.

It's a tough spot for sure. Many have recommended Plan B, though I'm not sure what a letter can say that I haven't already said, except to build a wall between us yet again by me telling her I absolutely refuse to see her. For me, PB seems a lot more tailored towards cake eaters or spouses who are on the fence...My W, on the other hand, hasn't really been a cake eater (she doesn't rely on me for anything anymore) and she's not on the fence from what she's told me, she's always been up front about wanting a divorce since D-Day. Though maybe our last conversation put her on the fence, I think she climbed on, and was clearly on OM's side before that. So perhaps it was progress.

Anyway, lots of mixed emotions going through my head lately. Surprisingly, though, a few weeks ago, when I felt the rift building between W and I via email (her very short responses, etc) I was starting to think I needed anti D's or something, now since I talked to her, I've been feeling pretty good, generally. Wonder why?

ALS

I disagree. I think your W is very much cake-walking. Think about it. She spends her time with OM, yet every so often, has to come over and see you, e-mail you, etc... Yet she hasn't brought the D papers to you yet. JMHO. There is some EN you are meeting in these brief contacts that OM is not.

Anyway, lots of mixed emotions going through my head lately.

Which is why you have a coach, and a darned good one I might add. What does she say about this? Is she still pro-PB? Has she been wrong yet? Yeah, I know, it took me a while to learn she knew everything too <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

MTD

mtd is right, ALS. Your W is a cake-walking, fence-sitting, crawling... Well, maybe not crawling! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

" So I'm thinking maybe I should just wait it out as long as I can, but I do worry that instead of contacting me again to talk, it might just be with divorce papers in hand."

Yeah. It's possible that she may just say "no, I did NOT just pull my head out of my butt and realize just what a terrific M we had and how wonderful a man you are! I realized that I'm on the exact right path for me right now. I use the snot out of OM and love it, since I don't have to care how he feels (he gets to use me, too, so everybody is happy, right?). No, I want this DV, and your plan B letter is just the admission from you that you want it too that I've been waiting for!"

In all probability, she won't say anything like this. This is why plan B DOES work as well as it does. But it doesn't always get you the results you hope for. And that's why I stress that you have to be ready for the possibility of DV as one of the outcomes. It could go that way.

Having said all that, even with your LONG posts on this forum, your coach knows better than we do. What DOES she think you should do?

-Qfwfq

Hey, I got responses, whoo-hooo!!!

Hi guys. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Anyway, yep, I've been talking to Cerri about things. She is wise and she is good. She has been doing a wonderful job for me and I'm incredibly appreciative of all she's done.

Yes, she is still recommending a Plan B, but has also been very receptive to my feelings as of late, and my insights regarding what the conversation W and I had meant. For that reason we are still working on the PB letter but not as urgently as we thought we'd have to. We are in a holding pattern but the letter WILL still be sent eventually if no further positive things come out of this.

I do see it as a positive that 12 days later, there was still no attempt to deliver me any Dv papers. I really am basically in a PB situation now, just without a letter. W has made no attempt to contact, nor have I. And so far, I'm doing well with it so I am sure I will be able to do a PB for myself as well. I just worry that W will jump on the defensive if a letter is given to her. Her attempt at regaining control then may very well be pushing those Dv papers. I certainly don't want to rush into that if I don't have to.

Of course, I don't want to let her be a cake eater/fence sitter either. Right now yes, she does have the option to see me if she needs to, but trust me when I say, aside from the long conversation last week, I have not had many chances to meet her ENs. I'd welcome more, if only to show her changes and the fact that I AM able to meet ENs that I wasn't before. Turning my back on her in a PB is going to definitely show her that I give up on meeting her ENs again, and, while my few opporunities HAVE been good, I do wonder if I've done ENOUGH in Plan A to make a lasting impression.

So Q and MTD, you're right -- She's not going to wake up overnight and realize that she was wrong and the M is what she wants. But I am sort of still open to the idea of further conversations about us, or, even better, some contact away from the house, a lunch or something. But if she is dead set against that, and I don't see any effort or progress soon, PB it shall be.

For now, I'm still working on that letter and staying in NC. A holding pattern of sorts. Soon I will have surpassed (if not already) the longest period of time without a communication between us, including email. Perhaps this time to think without pressure from me will do her good.

ALS

<small>[ March 24, 2003, 10:24 PM: Message edited by: ALostSoul ]</small>

ALS-

I ENTHUSIATICALLY agree with CERRI!

Your wife is definately starting to see the FOG bank! She's been walking blindly for a long time and now she knows it. I'm completetly CONFIDANT that she will come out of it SOON!

Here is where we are at:

She is thrilled by the positive attention and support that you have given her in the last few months.

She is shocked that you were willing to work on M. Remeber when she left, she was either extremely ANGRY and FRUSTRATRED. This translates into you ignored me, you didn't care, yatta yatta yatta...

She is starting to sway back in your direction because you now seem more appealing than OM. You have been filling some EN's and he hasn't. The memories of your R are now reswurfacing for her and she is starting tot see what she REALLY had instead of what her ANGER allowed her to see.

Now, What will PLAN-B do:

Shock her into reality.

When you finally do a succesful PLAN-b, the EN's that you were meeting during PLAN-A will no longer be filled. OP will not be meeting them because he is consistent with his behavior. He has complete confidence because your wife is NOT being honest with him about her inner turmoil. Once those EN's aren't met, she will realize that YOU have been meeting them. She will see that you AREN'T going to meet them unless she changes. Based on what I have read, I believe that she will want those needs met by you. She will lower her walls and recognize what it is she's lost. That's when the magic starts....

One of the ereasons I recommended a 180 approach now is to show her that you are capable and willing to be with other women. What's nice about 180 is that it outs the illusion of this in the WS's mind. Once she realizes that you are NO longer her territory and that the old patterns don't work, it wilol pull her towards you faster than anything else. The idea that you want someone and not her will also shock her out of the fog....

Trust Cerri - She is right on.

Kily,

So, I think what you're trying to say is you think it might be a good idea to go to an immediate Plan B? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

An ENTHUSIASTIC agreement with Cerri! I tend to do that a lot too. I probably should have followed her advice and rushed right into a Plan B immediately after our last talk, but I was just afraid it was going to be a contradiction in words and actions from all that we'd talked about. Now I'm in sort of a funny place.

Here's what scares me the most: I send the PB letter, she immediately bounces back with divorce papers. PB puts a lot of people on the defensive, just because she'll see me as attempting to take control, also I'm sure it will anger her. Her response might be to immediately jump into the divorce. And to be honest with you, if she brought me papers, I'd sign them. I'm not going to fight for a marriage with someone who obviously doesn't want it anymore. If she still shows doubt, it's one thing, but for her to take the step to get those papers together and bring them forward, well, I think that's making a pretty bold statement. I can't continue to drag my feet on a divorce that she wants, if she wants it that much.

On the contrary though, I looked at the beginning of my post here today when I was responding. Notice I said that she wanted a divorce ASAP? That was the impression when that conversation started. When it finished, I wasn't sure. And now, here we are, 12 days later, and still not a peep from W, no divorce papers brought to me or left in the mailbox. She's gone silent. I have a feeling she might actually be thinking things through for the first time now, seeing the reality of the situation. I think this is GOOD, and I am a bit afraid that a PB letter could very well destroy any progress the converstaion we had made.

Kily, I admire your confidence in that my W is going to come out of the fog soon! I know everyone is different but the fact that you are seeing that pattern is reassuring. I do think something clicked with her after talking to me last week. She may not think about me constantly, but I bet she at least has me in her mind sometime each day.

What I HAVE been doing good with is my 180. I have not gone this long without contacting her since D-Day. Most of my contact was e-mail but now that has totally stopped as well. So basically I am in a Plan B situation anyway, just without a letter. Though I am still tempted to leave the door open for further discussion if I think it will do good. I don't expect her to leave the OM overnight or decide to work on the M. This is going to be a slow process if it happens at all.

I'm not sure how to convince her I am willing to date others or AM dating others as far as that aspect of the 180 goes. I do know that my W used to be very protective of me when we were together and didn't like the idea of me with other females at all (maybe she was TOO overprotective) but anyway, that COULD be something that would affect her or wake her up to the fact she really will lose me. I don't think Cerri's too keen on the idea of me actually dating someon else, mind you, but planting the idea that I might be doing that I think could be effective. But how?

Remember though, Kily, that I really wasn't meeting many of my W's ENs since D-Day. When given the chance, I was, but I'd say I only physically saw my W in person maybe 7 or 8 times since she moved out, and talked on the phone maybe 5 or 6 times. Not a lot of contact for a 5 month period. So I'm not sure how much it will affect her not having me at all now. My opportunities to meet her ENs since she moved out have already been very limited.

You have a very positive message here, I do hope some or all of what you are saying might be true. If she is starting to come out of the fog and seeing my good points (and OM's bad points), then I do feel I'm in a good position to start a reconciliation process.

I just wish I wasn't so scared that Plan B could backfire and kickstart the divorce process, since we're already on the brink of it. PB would be so much easier if she told me she was undecided about us, not ready to divorce already.

ALS

ALS ... you frustrate me. And here's why. We're a lot alike, always second guessing and analyzing. Stop it and do something. Personally, I think now is the time for you to take a risk. It seems to me that your odds are roughly the same -- at least as you've described them -- if you continue with Plan A as it would be if you went to Plan B. So why not go to Plan B?

ALS:

"I'm not sure how to convince her I am willing to date others or AM dating others as far as that aspect of the 180 goes. I do know that my W used to be very protective of me when we were together and didn't like the idea of me with other females at all (maybe she was TOO overprotective) but anyway, that COULD be something that would affect her or wake her up to the fact she really will lose me. I don't think Cerri's too keen on the idea of me actually dating someon else, mind you, but planting the idea that I might be doing that I think could be effective. But how?"

Is that Florida chick still available? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Just kidding. I feel like what Groucho Marx said about clubs when it comes to dating while I'm M'd. He said "I wouldn't want to join any club that would have someone like me as a member." Meaning, in a roundabout way: I wouldn't date someone that would think it's okay to date a M'd man.

-ol' Qfwfq

ALS,

I think you are missing something. You are worried that Plan B might "backfire." Exactly what does that mean? Does it mean that she might want to come back? When you are not sure you really want or ought to be married to her? It seems to me that IS something to fear. Or does it mean she sends D papers, you sign them because you are willing to "because you don't want to be married to someone who doesn't want to be with you."

I see more to fear if she does come back, than if she doesn't. So what does "backfire" mean to you?

I think you should be fearing inaction rather than action. Yes, time is on your side with regard to her A. If you wait long enough, the A may die. If you are really patient, she could marry the guy, and her marriage fail (the odds on that are really high). So what is it you fear?

I don't think one should do Plan B randomly, or out of spite or even pain. I think it should be for a well thought out reason. But NOT doing it because of fear, when the marriage is already lost unless something changes, seems counter productive.

To quote old Roosevelt (edited courtesy of Q <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ): "the only thing to fear is fear itself." So if you and Cerri decide to do Plan B for very good reasons, then lose the fear, you have already lost the marriage. THe only issue is whether you will get a chance to rebuild, and I am not sure you are sure you want that chance either.

So as my old football coach used to tell me: "Don't just stand there boy, do something wrong, right once in your life." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Something for you to think about. When it is time for action, make your best choice and then act, don't fear it.

Hope something I have said helps.

God Bless,

JL

<small>[ March 25, 2003, 07:56 PM: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</small>

JL:

I thought that was Roosevelt?

-Qfwfq

By Golly,

I think you are right. I attribute everything to Winston, loved his humor and his speeches. Thanks Q, I think of all the things I have lost I miss my mind the most. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I am reading your posts, but really haven't had anything intelligent to offer. But, I do suspect your W is starting to "get it." I hope so anyway.

JL

PS: Where is SC? He is supposed to heading out my way in the next week or so.

<small>[ March 25, 2003, 07:54 PM: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</small>

JL:

Thanks.

Yeah, I miss my mind too. But just think. If memory is the first thing to go, not second after... ...you know, then the ...you know... is like brand new every time at some point!

Something to look forward too, I suppose!
-Qfwfq

Wow, I go away for a few hours and my thread explodes! Thanks all! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Whippit - Yes, I am guilty of thinking too much. I am basically just trying to think of EVERY possible outcome. Not so much what the likely outcome is, but what every possible outcome could be, both involving me sending a PB letter, and not.

Here's a basic rundown:

1) I send PB letter. W is shocked out of fog after I take back control by telling her NC until OM is out of picture. W decides to work on M.

2) I send PB letter. W is angered and standoffish by my actions. W pushes hard for divorce and remembers why she wanted it in the first place. All PA goodness goes away, W focuses on negative by my refusal to speak with her any more (even though she told me she wanted to talk more about us when we last spoke).

3) I don't send PB letter. NC continues. One day, W brings divorce papers over to have me look over them and sign them.

4) I don't send PB letter. W calls or comes over to house to continue to talk about our R. Progress is made. I meet more needs. OM starts to LB. Contact between W and I drops down walls further. We slowly begin to work on M, her love of OM dies as she sees my changes.

Of course, there are COUNTLESS other possibilities here. But you can see that there ARE other options than just cutting off all contact with her until she agrees to stop seeing OM. There is a possibility that yes, I do have something to lose my sending that letter. Could I also have something to gain? Sure. But I am trying to weigh the options. It's not as cut and dry as it may seem, at least, not from where I'm standing.

Q - Girl from Florida. I never even got her name or number. Oh well. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> But you're right, I am sort of sickened my W would like a man who has no problems dating a married woman, or having an affair with her. I wouldn't want a girl that would date a married man.

JL - Hello again! Hope I'm not letting you down too much here. I am just being honest with myself and my feelings.

What are your thoughts on my possible scenarios above?

Actually, I don't have any fear at all about her coming back. Don't really have any fear about her NOT coming back either. My fear is mostly regarding doing the right thing. If this M has a chance to be saved, I want to know I did the right thing to get us back on track, not the WRONG thing. I am so very confident that if my W put her heart into saving this M, we'd be better than ever. I have learned so much and worked so hard that I know it can be so.

For that reason, I just want to do the right thing here. I feel I am taking action now by NCing her. I really do. It's a change in plan, a change from what I've been doing. Perhaps it's bringing about changes in her that I've yet to see.

If I would have not had the conversation I had with my W 2 weeks ago, I would be in PB by now. I would have felt the M was over. But I felt a change during that conversation. There were some wonderful moments of honesty, of love, of hope that I saw there. I can't help but think the fact that her eagerness to fill out those papers has suddenly disappeared means something. If I have even given her something to reconsider, I feel I've made positive progress, as before that conversation, her mind was made up.

Again, this could be the ravings of a lunatic here. I'm not sure. I appreciate your inspirational words, JL. Definitely giving me a lot to think about. I know when I take the next action, whatever it is, I won't be afraid, I'll be ready. I just need to be at peace with myself when that action is taken.

ALS

<small>[ March 25, 2003, 10:21 PM: Message edited by: ALostSoul ]</small>

I'm on a shorter time out of the gates (only 1½ months) But I see several similarities between us.

Namely the sketchy contact... Plan A'ing best I can, but only seen her 2 times since she moved out, speak maybe once a week by phone, and then it's just "Chit-Chat" about daily events.

Sadly my WW shows no sign of coming out of the fog.. Says she wants a divorce, "I Can't Try Again", and already talking about having children with OM....

From the sounds of your situation, I believe you would be well suited to follow EVERYONE's advice and move on to Plan B. Show your wife that YOU are in charge of your life. Let her know she can't just keep your heart on a string to play with when she gets bored. She'll get the msg with a good plan B.

Your attitude seems to be a lot like mine at the moment. I'm at the point that I WANT her to come back, and know that we could make things better than ever if we both try. But I have pretty much no hope that she will. It just doesn't seem like she'll see what she's doing until sometime after divorce papers are signed.

I know I can live, with or without her. I am a strong independant person. I'll survive. What I'm struggling with now is doing my best. Right now, I know that 5 years from now, I'll be able to tell myself "I Did Everything I Could To Make It Work".. That's what I want to keep doing. When this is all over, I want to be able to look myself in the mirror. I want to be proud of who I am. And right now, I'm proud of me. Just gotta keep it that way.

Well, believe me, a month and a half ain't much, you've still got a lot of Plan A-ing left if you can do it. I'm 5 months in and still trying to put my best foot forward. With as little contact as we have with our wives, it takes even longer to see results. Plan A is said to go up to 6 months, but that being in mind that you're actually seeing your partner more than once or twice a month...In the book's case, it usually assumes regular contact or, even better, you still living with your spouse. Plan Aing while separated is a lot more difficult.

That being said, I do have a limit to all this, and I'll know when I've reached it. It's been almost 2 weeks since we had the conversation that began with her wanting a divorce as soon as possible. You'd think if that was still as important to her, she'd have gotten some paperwork to me in these last 2 weeks. Maybe she is still thinking. Hopefully she will continue to do so and not jump into this too abruptly. But it may still happen as well.

I'm still debating the virtues over sending her that letter as opposed to just doing what I'm doing now, and staying in NC. I seriously don't think the ping-pong of me being on a string and just being pulled back if she needs me will happen much more. I have a strong belief that our next conversations will either tell me whether she is going to try, or whether we are going to get a divorce. I don't feel that, aside from this NC (PB-like) time I am in now, that there will be any more ambiguity about the situation.

Sorry to hear your W is talking about children with OM. At least my W has told me she does not picture a future with OM. I hope she means that and is not just saying that to make me feel better. But seriously, give it a time, everyone here will tell you that 1.5 months in a drop in the bucket. They still tell me that 5 months is, too!

ALS

Well I made it! 2 weeks with NC. Wow. Now I just need to decide if I wanna go for 3 or if I should break the silence soon with an email to W. I can probably keep doing this for a while yet, I just don't want my W to think I don't care anymore either, especially since I didn't send an official Plan B letter or anything.

After 2 weeks, I do believe I'm going to need to have one more contact with her before sending any letter anyway, not to mention I have her car registration to give to her that came in the mail anyway (one of the last things to come that she'll need from me, since she changed her address).

Decisions, decisions...

ALS

ALS-

What was the longest time period that passed before you contacted W in any way?

She will be anticipating contact from you. DO NOT CONTACT her. Let her contact you. If you have faith in nothing else, please have faith in this...I will bet you a trip anywhere in the WORLD on this one.

When she sees that you aren't calling and chasing her, she will start chasing you...Once she does contact, be receptive to her conversation, but elusive with your life details...