Thanks Q -

My expectations aren't any higher than they have been, and I'm still fully prepared for her to bring papers over or for Plan B, whatever comes next. Her calling certainly wasn't a major breakthrough by any stretch, I just think she got curious. NC for 3 weeks definitely had her wanting to talk to me, though, I could sense that for sure.

So we'll see what the week brings I guess. Treading very lightly, and I'm not really making any efforts to contact anymore. I did it once, I can continue with it as much as needed. It gets easier with practice. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

ALS

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by T00MuchCoffeeMan:
All right mr smarty pants, get ready to get your fanny whipped by my kangaroo hide bullwhip.

If you are going to be following SH's advise to another MB poster, then WHY are you then wasting Cerri's time?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ROTFL......

Ohhhhhh... ALS... is that why I don't hear from ya anymore? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

We'll talk when I get back from training with Michele (Weiner-Davis). I have to say, the more I read her stuff, the more I see that's it's as misinterpreted as Willard Harley's.

Don't whip him around too much CoffeeMan, or I'll have to call you with computer woes.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

C <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Cerri,

Actually I was a little ashamed that I was considering other options instead of yours, Coffeeman made me feel bad!

Plus I knew you were bizee this week, so I am giving you a break due to all your DBing and stuff. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

So are you saying that Michele's stuff is really just stealing from MB principles, or that it's a lot more similar than I'm seeing? I do of course see a lot of similar ideas with different titles, but some differences as well.

ALS

Actually I was a little ashamed that I was considering other options instead of yours, Coffeeman made me feel bad!

And for your penance you will read and answer my email for a week!!

Plus I knew you were bizee this week, so I am giving you a break due to all your DBing and stuff. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Mr. Considerate all of a sudden??? LOL

So are you saying that Michele's stuff is really just stealing from MB principles, or that it's a lot more similar than I'm seeing? I do of course see a lot of similar ideas with different titles, but some differences as well.

I wouldn't say it's stealing. I would say she's a pretty smart woman who has used very similar methods with very similar success. Yeah, I do think it's closer than what it appears on the surface, but I'll know more next week at this time!

Stay outta trouble.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> til I get back next week!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

C

Stay outta trouble.. til I get back next week!!

Yeah, as if....

ALS, how ya doin'????

MTD

Cerri -

Answer your email for a week!??! NO WAY, NO THANK YOU!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

And I've always been SORT of considerate, haven't I? Except for emergency situations. Haven't had many of those lately though. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Look forward to hearing what you pick up in Michele's classes!

MTD: I'm actually pretty much staying out of trouble. I was fine going back into total NC again after last Thursday, but unfortunately the dentist's office called on Monday to remind Aimee of an appointment she had on Tuesday. She made it 6 months ago (before D-Day) so I was sure that she had forgotten. So I decided to send her a 1-line email to let her know that she had an appointment. I figured she'd cancel so I even gave her the number of the dentist. No more info than that, no small talk.

So she wrote back that night with a short email that said something like "Hmmm...I don't have a dentist appointment! Hmmm..." But I figured I'd got the message to her so I did not respond.

Well wouldn't ya know it, yesterday the dentist's office called AGAIN. W never showed up for her appointment and didn't call to cancel. I hate how irresponsible she can be sometimes, that's just rude to not at least give them a quick call to reschedule. I thought about calling the dentist to give them her new phone number but I don't want to cross that line, that should be something W takes care of.

Anyway, that's about the extent of it. I am doing great staying in NC for now, but wary of Cerri's advice to check myself every day, and make sure that I am not growing resentful to the point of not wanting my M anymore. That day is coming, I just want to be careful to allow myself a Plan B before I am totally done.

Thanks for asking!

ALS

I had to take a little MB break again, I need to do that sometimes, I get to wrapped up in this board and that's not healthy. So from time to time, I get away.

Not much going on, but I do have a small report. It's been a week and a half since the last contact with W, as you may recall, she broke my NC after 3 weeks with a phone call.

Today while I was home for lunch, the phone rang, but I let the machine get it. It was W calling from work, a sign she is looking to avoid long conversations, else she'd call me from home in the evening. She left about a 1 minute message, letting me know that she was going to be headed home to her family for a long holiday weekend, and would not be able to pick up the car registration until next week, unless she can come by tomorrow. She asked that I e-mail her to let her know. She also told me to remind her to bring over some things of mine that she has (a sign she might be wanting to finally sever the final ties, though I'm not sure, she might just be making a nice gesture).

Anyway, I also got the impression that she is looking to stop by at lunch rather than in the evening, which is usually when she wants a quick visit with me rather than a long one. Again, that's fine, at this point I'm not going to angle for anything more. I already do have plans for lunch tomorrow though, so she'll have to stop by at night or else wait until next week, anyway. I'll e-mail her tonight very briefly and let her know this.

I actually don't anticipate she will bring over the divorce papers, but I suppose it's possible. I still feel she is holding off as long as she can in the hopes I will bring up the papers and thus take some of the burden off her to start the process. I will not give this to her. She can bring them over, but I'm not going to ask about divorce or anything. If she brings them up, we'll discuss.

For when she comes by, it was recommended me (by Kily, I believe) that I should really make it visible that I am moving on. Pack up the rest of my W's stuff, and put it away, so she can see I am detaching in a big way when she is at the house. Considering she might be coming by tomorrow, I think I am finally going to put away the rest of her things (there's not much left) from the bedroom, as well as put away the photo I have of she and I that sits on my desk downstairs. I don't want her to see me as the weak guy who is still pining away for her, but more as the guy who has accepted her words and is capable of moving on as she has, if that is the choice she is going to make. Anyone have any thoughts on that?

Will keep you all posted.

ALS

Hmmm, I think I didn't post often enough, and I lost all my friends! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

ALS

ALS-

I think you changing up the house a bit and showing that you're ready to move on is a very good idea. It's something I never did and I'm now D'd (which I'm finding out might be the best thing that ever happened to me, go figure!). Anyway, you still have reasons to hope for R as it sounds like you're getting this NC thing down pat.

One thing I was wondering about your sitch is if her co-workers ever heard the whole story? You mentioned before that you don't know many of them but is there anyone you could confide with? I'd look at revealing the A as one of a few cards you're still holding...These office romances really don't like the light of day shining down, makes em go away in a hurry! And if this knuckle head is out of the way, your chances for R improve drastically of course. Good luck!

Well, the drama thickens. Ay yay yay.

Last night I sent W an email inviting her to come over and pick up her car registration tonight. Never got a reply but then about an hour later, the phone rang. It wasn't W, but a friend's sister to tell me some bad news -- My friend's husband had just suddenly died on Sunday. He was 27. What a terrible tragedy. Apparently it was natural causes, just out of the blue. I'm realizing how frail this life we live is right now. You just never know.

So tonight is a viewing which I feel I need to go to. So I had to send W an e-mail this morning and let her know that, if she was planning to come over, I had to cancel on her, that I have to step out for something unexpectedly.

Well, she responded back and told me that she wasn't planning to come over tonight anyway, becuase she is not feeling well at all, and told me that she "coughed up some blood this morning". Well she is 23, I know that's not something that's supposed to happen. Not ever, but especially not now. And naturally given last night's news about my friend, it's very jarring to hear about that.

I was doing well with NC, but now I am filled with this sense of concern about her well-being. I'm not sure how to proceed, I hate to say it but I almost wish she wouldn't have told me she was having health problems. I mean I totally believe she is having problems, but I'm wondering why she felt the need to tell me about it unless she is looking to see if I am still concerned. Not sure. But now I am and I'm not sure what to do. I know I care and I am worried for her, I hope she feels better soon.

I decided to just simply write her an email back, told her I was sorry to hear that and I hope that she will take care of herself. I also asked her if there was anything I could do. I figure that's a fair response given the present situation. I am very concerned for her though, especially given the current news I'm dealing with.

Ugh, what next?

ALS

<small>[ April 15, 2003, 09:30 AM: Message edited by: ALostSoul ]</small>

Thanks, Licht.

Actually I am doing great with the NC, generally (see above post though, I really want to stay in NC, but a few things have happened lately that have caused contact, though I seriously am not looking for excuses to contact her, I am trying to stay out of it as much as I can).

I don't know for SURE that her co-workers know the full story. I am almost positive that her co-workers and bosses must know she is seeing her co-worker though. Their company grapevine is nasty. But I never once met a single person she works with, weird huh? She's only been there a year and has kept it seperate.

Anyway, while I am pretty sure folks there know she is not with me and is with this guy at work, I'm not sure if they know the full story, that I want to save the M, etc. They probably have whatever impression of me that she wanted to give them. So I could be an abusive husband, or someone who kicked her out and doesn't want her back, etc. Whatever she needs me to be to her friends and co-workers to help justify what she is doing.

ALS

ALS:

Definitely consult your coach on these things. I'd be inclined to see if I could help in any way with the health thing. That could be serious, but it might not be. I'm not a medical person, though, so don't put any stock in what I say.

As for the coworkers. Again, ask your coach. I'd be inclined to inform, though, particularly as you send her a plan B letter, if that's what you end up doing. Certainly to the OM, but possibly to a close friend of hers at work or even her boss, because the OM will not pass the news on any more than your W will. It might shine a little more daylight on the A.

Take care. I'm sorry about the loss of your friend.
-Qfwfq

ALS-

Don't forget the candles!!!!

Also send her a small card.

You can word it something like this:

"W,

I just wanted to let you know that I care and am concerned about you. It is especially hard to see you ill with the passing of _____. You matter a great deal to me so please get well.

with much love....

ALS."

Nothing committal or demanding. Just a simple note that says it all. Sorry about your loss...

ALS,

As I am at work and I dont have the 38 hrs required to read this entire thread...coach is mentioned a few times. Is this your IC or something else.

I have started reading your thread and my heart goes out to you but you are doing really well it seems. I am slowly getting to that place too.

Thanks, everyone, for sticking by me even though my posting has been anything but regular lately.

Q: Yup, I've been consulting with the coach on this and she's been helping me along. I'm still not exactly beahving in the way many of you have hoped, no Plan B letter has been sent yet, but I am feeling really good about the situation these days.

The more I think about it, I am concerned for her, but she is a grown up and can take care of herself, so I hope that she will get medical help if needed. She knows I am available if she needs anything but I am not going to push that issue with her, either. It's possible she told me this because she is looking for some attention.

Kily -

Hello! Yup, the stuff is packed as you suggested and candles, all that is set. She won't be coming over until next week sometime now, and I did send her a short email along the lines you suggested. Not sure on the card, right now that's a lot different than the way I have been treating the situation lately. I think I need to remain consitent with the contact I've been keeping lately (little to none).

So we'll see what happens next, Kily. Another interesting little development, isn't it?

D-Rose -

Hi and welcome to my thread! I've got some real doozy threads around, believe me...Many came before this one! Thanks for trying to get through it all.

I am working with a professional relationship coach right now, I do not have an IC though.

It took me a while to get here, but lately I truly am doing better than ever before. Thanks so much for your comments, if you have any more I'll be here.

Thanks everyone!

ALS

Happy Easter everyone!

Just wanted to drop in and wish everyone who's been following my thread, just reading, or those that respond, a very Happy Easter.

I'm trying to keep this thread going, and I really should have just done this from the start since it'd be easier to follow my story, but still, hope to keep this one alive for a while.

No new updates from me really. I've been coming here less as I think that getting too attached to this board was keeping me attached to W as well, and it's been easier to detach from her when I'm not here, as when I'm here, I find myself focusing on the situation more than I should be.

Still, I'll be here with any new updates, and hopefully checking into some other threads as well, though not to the extent I used to be. And even if I don't hear back from a lot of you, I hope that you'll at least read my updates, perhaps learn something from everything I've been through.

Monday will be 6 months since D-Day. I think I am where I need to be right now. I am feeling better, looking good, feelign strong and confident. Yes, I still miss my W and love her very much. I say goodnight to her every night, whereever she may be. And I wish her well. However, I am also to a point now where I will be at peace with a divorce if she continues to pursue one.

It's not that I love her less, or that I don't care for her, it's just that I feel confident enough with what I've done to save the marriage, as well as my actions towards her over these past months, that if she still wants to divorce me, I see no reason to make it difficult for her.

I haven't seen her in person in over a month, since the post that started this thread, and we've talked on the phone just once since then a couple weeks ago. I have no reason to think she still doesn't want the divorce, aside from the fact that she didn't bring any paperwork over for me to sign at this point. I'd really like to know why, but at the same rate I don't want to bring it up with her either.

So we'll see what happens. I expect to see her next week as she said she wanted to come by and get her car registation. Again, that's the last chance we'll have for an excuse to get together. I'm doing great with detachment. I no longer email her to attempt to get contact from her. I will continue in this way as long as I possibly can.

For some reason, even through I really don't SEE any results, I feel that this NC/detachment thing is doing more for me and for this situation than anything I've done since D-Day.

Will keep you all posted, thanks for all your support and Happy Easter!

ALS

ALS-

You sound like you've really turned a corner with the separation and I think it's great! Taking these steps now to maintain and strengthen your independence and happiness will play a pivotal role in any R that takes place down the road. Expect some bumps but stay the course, you're doing very well IMO...Good luck!

Hi Licht, thanks for that, I do feel I have reached a turning point over these last few weeks. Of course I have still totally not let go of my marriage, that would be wrong, I haven't given up hope but I've reached an inner peace and a level of patience that I had a lot of trouble getting to over those first months.

I am still reading as much as I can, just not posting very frequently anymore. So I hope you all can understand, right now I just need to spend less time here at the board, for me.

Yesterday was the 6 month D-Day anniversary, 6 months since I found out about my W's A. At the time the A had just started, so I'm not surprised that W is still together with OM at this time. I don't expect it to last forever, but I do wonder if it will outlast our M, and cause it to end. That is still a very real possibility.

I guess what I wanted to say to many of you is this -- I think I'm pretty much a textbook case here of what happens and how it can be handled. Sure, there are always exceptions but I've played by most of the rules and experienced a lot of what the Harley teachings tell us to expect.

I LBed a while at first, then got on track with a Plan A, the best I could with a physical separation. Saw some results, some backslides, but overall, the plan did what it needed to do -- Helped me learn more about myself and relationships, and showed my W that I was capable of changing for the better. I have no doubt that my W has seen changes in me. It might not be enough for her to come back for a variety of reasons (pride, the OM, fear) but she has at least seen a different ALS.

The bottom line though is this -- So many people tell you here that the key things are patience, and working on winning back yourself. And it's going to take a while for all of you to do that, but for those of us that have gotten to that point, we can all relate that it truly is the BEST thing you can do. It took me months to get to this point, and probably only a month ago was when I was finally at the point of TRUE patience and detachment.

When you find this peace within yourself, and know that you have done all you can to save your marriage, even in the face of something as awful as an A, it's a very good feeling. When I reached the point where I could tell myself that I am doing all I can for my W and my M, and that she is in the driver's seat as far as HER life goes, I finally was able to do this the right way.

I'm sure it's different depending on the person, but for a guy like me, whose W moved out just weeks after discovery, it hasn't been easy to win her back or show her changes. After doing the best I can with that, for me, backing off, living my life, being patient, knowing that I'm a good person, a BETTER person that ever, and that I'm going to be just fine with or without my W, has given me peace.

Patience really is key. It's been said so many times by people wiser than I, but we have forever to end our marriages, only a short time to save them.

6 months later, I am happy to say I am in a better place than I have been since this all started, and it gets better with each passing day. Sure, I have the occasional moments of despair or loneliness, but they don't last like they used to. And it gets better all the time, because I know I'm a good person and that I've done my best. I wish all this for you as well, and know you WILL get there, some days it just seems like it will never come. But it will.

Will keep you all posted with any further developments. I still will see W within the next week because she needs to pick up that car registration. We'll see what happens, but expectations remain very low.

Talk to you again soon.

ALS

Hello all!

Thought about starting a new thread and I may, depending on how many of you see this one.

I don’t mean to be blowing the board off so much lately. Just been a bit preoccupied with my own sitch so I’ve been sorta busy.

W came by tonight and stayed all of 5 minutes to get her car registration. She was still feeling sick and tired so I can understand, but it was sort of an indicator of sorts. She mentioned wanting to get the rest of her stuff (I think she saw that I packed it all up) and giving me back a few of my things too, a sure sign she is moving further away, not closer. But, she STILL did not mention divorce or bring the papers. Tonight, she rang the bell, normally she just lets herself in after, this time she waited for me to come to the door and open it (I know, a small sign but it seems like a bit of distancing for sure). She asked if I had a hockey jersey of hers, a present I gave to her when we first met, I told her it was in a box of her stuff in the back room, so she went in, then saw the pile of stuff and decided against digging for it. I do think she also noticed that I'd put away the rest of her things. So I'm not sure, but that might have sent a message that I want her to get her things out.

Anyway, she told me she was feeling very tired and sick still, and she was going home to nap. She seemed to perk up when I asked her about the new cat. I asked her how she was feeling as well, she told me she'd gone to the doctor and had some tests, nothing to report though, nothing they found wrong. Told her that I'd hoped she'd feel better soon. Gave her the car registration and she was on her way. When she left, she told me she'd come back some other time, to get the rest of her things. That was sorta sad, sounds like she is moving even further away from wanting to come home if she plans to take the rest of her things. Either that or she thinks I don't want her here anymore since I packed the rest of it up. Which you are right, I don't want her to get that idea. No divorce papers mentioned or brought with her, though. So I guess that is good.

Cerri as well as many of you were highly recommending I do a Plan B. I am going to have to agree with you all now. I think the time is right, since I found the words and wrote a good letter that I feel isn’t offensive, just honest…And also because I don’t want W to get the feeling that I have totally given up on her, just in case she is having any final second thoughts. If anything, I still don’t have those divorce papers, but I fully realize this email might trigger them (though I do think I wrote this delicately enough that it won’t happen, at least, that was my goal).

I am just to the point where I’m done with the stalemate, and feel like doing what I have been doing isn’t working. This last month and a half of no contact with her may have shown her I am capable of leaving her alone, and capable of moving on, but after tonight, I’m also convinced that it’s not going to be the thing that brings her back. Obviously her thinking I have moved on wasn’t enough to have triggered any desire to come home. Else I think she’d have wanted to stay a bit and talk. I tried to start a few conversations but it was obvious she didn’t want to stay tonight. She did admire a few of the changes I made at the house but still rushed out the door.

So, take a look at this if you could, tell me what you think, as this may get sent as soon as tomorrow.

--
W,

It's been great lately when I get to spend time talking with you, but I wanted you to know that it's also still very hurtful to know you are still with the person that contributed to all of our troubles back in October. While you are with him, I am convinced that there is just no chance of anything being worked out or any progress being made between us. So, I think it's best that we spend some time completely out of contact to think about everything. No email, phone calls, visits, nothing. Just some time to decide if this is truly what you want, if you want us to end forever.

I also wanted to tell you that I have not completely given up hope for us or our marriage. I continue to have faith that, once you were ready, we could make this better than it ever was before, and put all of this baggage behind us. I realize this might seem impossible, but I also have faith that if we both wanted it to work, that we could do it. But first, we'd have to take those steps and try. I understand what got us to this point, and have been thinking about everything a lot lately. I hope that you have as well, or that you might give it some serious thought in the future.

If you want to talk about trying to work things out, or coming home, I am still very much up for that. The door here is still open, and if the opportunity presented itself, I would still love nothing more than to start over and build the relationship that we were meant to have from the start. But not until your relationship with OM is over. Until then, it's best that we stay out of contact. It's just too hard for me to keep going on like this, while you are involved with someone else.

I hope you can understand my feelings on this, and moreso, hope that you might consider giving our marriage a try before giving up completely. I feel that we never really tried when things got tough, and that if we did, things could be much better for us, regardless of what might come out of it. I know it would not be easy for either of us, and there would be a lot of things that had to change and be discussed, but I also think it would be worth it in the end, and we'd both be thankful that we tried without just walking away forever. I still look into your eyes and see the same girl that I fell for back in XXX years ago. I know mistakes were made, but I also know that's how we grow and learn and make things better. I know because when I hear things like you being sick, I still have the urge to take care of you, and to comfort you. I'd just hate for us to throw away something that could have been truly wonderful and look back in regret, thinking of what might have been.

With Love,

ALS
--

Thanks all. Opinions on the sitch and the letter welcome and hoped for. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ April 22, 2003, 07:15 PM: Message edited by: ALostSoul ]</small>

ALS:

It's never "happy" to hear that things got to this point. But I think you do need to break the stalemate. I think, based on your descriptions of her visits in the past, that she would be perfectly happy to either stay M'd to you but living with the OM, or DV you and "be friends" with you. She needs to realize that friendships get awfully strained by betrayals this deep, and so the message needs to be conveyed, via plan B it seems, that this "arrangement" she's gotten so comfortable with the past 6 months, is getting less desirable for you, and if she wants ANY relationship with you, she's got to end her A. ...perhaps by realizing, possibly for the first time, that it IS nothing but an A.

-Qfwfq