Could it possibly be that, in your case, your WW's A was an exit A?

"I wonder if the state of mind of the WS is basically that so long as they don't come back to their M (whether the A ends or not), they were NOT wrong in leaving."

Definitely! And further, I think some WS's feel the need to continue the A after D to further justify their decisions....

Kily: Thanks, will look for your mail later.

TMCM: Exactly, that's kind of what I thought it could be. But she certainly didn't say anything to me about being discontent in the M before having her A, there were no threats to leave or anything along those lines, so I do believe that she needed to find someone else before she was comfortable to leave. But yeah, I wrestle with the thought that she was done with the marriage regardless but still needed someone to comfort her through it, she herself has admitted to me that she needs a guy in her life to take care of her, that she wants to be strong enough to do it on her own but she can't. And I think she stays with the OM for that reason, because otherwise she'd be admitting she was wrong in leaving. Not to mention, she feels like she barely knows me anyone, after hardly having any communication for the last 6 months (her choice). But I am losing faith in how Plan B, NO communication whatsoever, is going to make her change her mind about us. We don't have a family or a very long history together, if this keeps up, soon she'll have spent more time with OM than she's even spent with me in her life.

Learnin: I think the point I got to was, like you said, I realized that PB couldn't make things any worse. You should go there if you are prepared to be divorced because that's what might happen. And I decided that I was willing to face that, because staying in Plan A for longer than 6 months never seems to work anyway. It would ahve worked by then.

Licht: Yep, sad but true, I think a lot of times a WS might have doubts about what they're doing, but they try and stick with the A just to justify their past actions. In truth, coming back to the M is the hardest, but in the long term, the best for the conscience and the soul...But they only see the present, and in the present, sticking with the A makes the most sense to them, and keeps their actions consistant.

ALS

<small>[ May 06, 2003, 09:18 AM: Message edited by: ALostSoul ]</small>

I still hold to the beleif that it's imperative that you find a way to deliver all of her remaining items in your home, to her. The presence of her items in your home, IMNSHO, puts in question the seriousness of your resolve to implement plan B (in her mind), and probably holds you back emotionally from eventually moving on.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"But I am losing faith in how Plan B, NO communication whatsoever, is going to make her change her mind about us."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Agreed, BUT plan B will definetely make it easier for YOU to move on.

<small>[ May 06, 2003, 09:24 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

YOU have mail...

ALS- You have the same rational fears of any BS when they go into PB. PB is not designed to sway the thinking of the WS, it is mearly designed to protect yourself. Its main goal is to protect your love for your W by removing yourself from the A and also to prepare yourself in the event the WS does not come back so you can start to live again.

Regarding your other question, I remember a post a while back talking about how WS's use the A as a reasson to leave. I know my W filed for Dv because it was easier for her to file than to have to admit to herself, me and others what she had done. As we all know it is easier to walk away from our problems than to admit our mistakes. The only problem with walking away is that it always turns around and bites us in the butt.

We all make mistakes, it is the big person who can admit them and try to make changes accordinly. I hope some day your W will be one of those.

Harley warns that PB usually doesn't work?? Did I miss something???

I know he says that it's risky and that you need to do a good Plan A first, but he also puts pretty tight time and pain limits on what he calls a "good" Plan A. Certainly never the doormat feeling lifestyle one might read about.

Anyway, rambling. Back to Harley... he does say that almost all affairs end, that most marriages don't end due to infidelity but to failure to address the conditions that led the affair once it has ended. Soooooo..... Plan B risky, of course.... and so is doing Plan A too long. Usually doesn't work? Don't think I've heard/read that one.... but I could have missed it.

C

Uh Oh, now you've got Cerri involved! We are all in trouble now! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Kily, got your mail, expect a lengthy response later tonight (my wordiness is legendary around here, ask Cerri.)

Cerri is always involved, by the way, STTSI, she is always watching and sometimes I think she just sees me say something stupid and can't resist posting a response here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Cerri: I may have misquoted Harley and I need to be careful about doing that. It's probably more something I read here at the forum which is of course NOT Harley. I think what I exactly read was that more M's tend to recover from an A during Plan A rather than Plan B, that Plan B was sort of a last effort but at that point it's a lot closer to divorce.

That being said, I do understand that A's normally end eventually, and that is very likely not the ultimate reason for the problems in my M. If we can't reconcile, it won't be due to the A as much as it's due to the fact that W refuses to address the conditions that led up to it. I'm afraid that she might find it easier to run away, like STTSI suggests.

STTSI: You say some very true and profound things here. I read things like that and say to myself, "If only W could read and understand those words, she might see that what she is doing is wrong." It is MUCH easier for her to file for Dv than admit to herself and to me that what she has done is wrong. Of that I am certain. And she herself has admitted to me that she is a runner. I asked her once if the shoe were on the other foot, if I had an affair, what would she have done? She said she would have run and never looked back. She runs from her problems instead of facing them. She wants to face her problems but she can't let go of the past to work through things.

So yes, a very true statement. It IS easier to just walk away from things and start over somewhere new. In the short term it's the solution that makes her life the easiest, but one day it will likely bite her in the butt. Maybe not tomorrow, or even next year, but one day, if not already, she is going to question if she should have come back, and given our M the effort. I hope one day she can be strong enough to admit that she made mistakes as well as I, and willing to work through it all.

Harley's Plan A and Plan B method I believe, though, as I read them, seem to indicate that Plan A usually involves the couple cohabitating, with Plan B being the physical separation. Traditionally. I feel like I was VERY close to a Plan B situation already 6 months ago when W moved out. So, I don't expect that a complete Plan B is going to result in any dramatic results, for either W or myself. Right now, it really doesn't feel any different to me than it did during Plan A, either. Her A doesn't hurt me any more or any less than it did 5 months ago, really. I guess because we were already not living together and basically completely split up, the A was never really in my face or causing me hurt by having to watch it happen. I've never witnessed it really except for maybe a week or two between D-Day and when she moved out.

ALS

ALS... you goof.... I'm not just lying in wait for you to say something stupid... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> LOL

I check in to see how ya are and if you need anything but haven't bugged me yet. (Oh yeah... like THAT would happen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> )

Now, if you happen to put foot in mouth.....JUST KIDDING!!! Really, I just try to keep up with what's goin' on with you..

Actually, I don't see many instances where Plan A is sucessful. Some I think because it's a flat Plan A... without honesty, confronting and exposure (see my April 2003 NL).... and some I think because like all addictions the unfaithful partner needs to hit bottom before they decide to get out and get help.

Anyway.... I like Plan B. I like a short, well defined, hard hitting, fully played Plan A... followed by an immediate Plan B when you are at the top of your need meeting form... before you start to slip and LBer again..which we all do when the pain gets to be too much.

Dragging out the process and living with (read: enabling) a spouse's affair only weakens an already beleaguered marriage.

C

You are right though... Plan B is risky and should be after you've done the other hard work of Plan A. (Read my rant on that at pg 9 of this thread <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

But don't you see this over and over around the boards..... A poster's spouse is having an A. They do Plan A.. and they do Plan A... and they do Plan A.... (or what they call Plan A, I don't because there is no honesty, no confronting and no exposure) and then one day that's it. They're done. They've had enough pain and misery and they either file for divorce or let it happen naturally.

Now tell me... how is that saving a marriage?

See Plan B is a simulated divorce. Live apart, don't have contact, divide up the finances, exchange the kids at the convenience store on rainy Sunday nights... BUT it leaves the door open for reconciliation. So the message of Plan B is not "I don't want to be married to you," it's "I want to be married to you, but I don't want to be hurt by your current actions."

There's a very different energy that is sent with a good Plan B letter. It's a taking back of dignity, empowerment and self respect. Saying I love you, but enough is enough.... call me when you're ready to respect me and the marriage the way I respect me and the marriage. I like that message, and it follows very naturally and very well on the heels of a properly executed Plan A.

C... who is avoiding working.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Well hey, all that being said, I guess I have done this fairly well. Not as perfect with the confronting of the OM as you'd liked, but for the most part, I did as much of a Plan A as I could while we were separated.

I guess the thing about my Plan A that bugs me is that, in total, it probably amounted to about 10 hours in 6 months. 12 hours of combined time in person, on the phone, and through email. 12 hours of time spent communicating in 6 months isn't a heck of a lot.

But still, I didn't want to Plan A until, like you said, I was ready to give up, hence the switch of gears to Plan B. I guess I just worry that I saw so little progress coming from her during Plan A that Plan B won't do much differently. I can certainly see Harley citing Plan B as a great chance when you physically separate after living together during Plan A, or if your Plan A involved a lot of communication, but in my case, Plan B doesn't look too much different to her than Plan A did, does it?

That being said, I do believe that I am happy with the way I have followed through with everything. I did the best Plan A that I could, that she'd allow me to give to her, and I think my Plan B letter was very well written and stated my feelings accurate and true.

So, I can at least look back knowing that I didn't just run away myself, like I think W tends to be doing, that I faced up to the situation I was given, and gave my best effort to get my M back on track. I read often about moments that a spouse in an affair just has that moment of clarity where they realize that they want their M back, and hope that might happen with W. I feel I've done my part, now it's her turn to reflect and do hers.

ALS

but in my case, Plan B doesn't look too much different to her than Plan A did, does it?

<sigh> My horror-scope this morning said that I was going to have a communicationally challenged day, and so it seems that I am....

OK.... how it looks and how it FEELS are two entirely different things. You know you can look great, put on a smile, dress well, stand up straight, appear confident, and still FEEL like crap.

Or you can look great, put on a smile, dress well, stand up straight, appear confident and FEEl like a million bucks.

The look is the same... but the energy, the feeling, is different. So it is with Plan A and Plan B. In Plan A you let her know that you were there, you made an effort to contact her, sent her funny stuff... you broadcast energy that said I'm here, I'm open.... You were waiting on her favor.

In Plan B, it's not like that. You send a very different message which says, I'm here BUT ONLY WHEN _____ HAPPENS.

You take back some of the power that you let her have to dicate the conditions of your relationship. In Plan A she decided if there was going to be 2-way contact and you were left wondering if she would respond.

Now, you have that control, and not only do you have it, but you've stated it explicitly. That's a powerful message to send. "I respect me enough not to allow myself to be put in the path of your hurtful actions"

You know how in high school when the R is going bad and one person gets dumped and the other wishes they had been the one to do it first, cuzx even though you don't think you want the R anymore you don't want to be the dumpee? It's very similar.... you just made her the dumpee in a fashion..... you dropped your end of the tug of war rope and she fell on her butt. That doesn't feel anything like Plan A when you are still tugging on your end.

C

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">cerri:

"you dropped your end of the tug of war rope and she fell on her butt." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ROTFLMAO with the mental picture. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Well thank you Coffeeman!! At least my communicationally challenged day is not for naught if I made you laugh.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Hey, I like the new sig line, saw it when I was avoiding working by surfing at the Recovery board. You aren't my fully caffeinated brother in disguise are you?? Oh wait... he's never been married and has no concept of reality, and all his advice is well... odd <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> .... never mind.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

C

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"and all his advice is well... odd <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> .." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That sounds just like me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

LOL LOL LOL

Ok, if you can tell me what String Theory is, with a straight face... I'll really be worried!!

cerri:

"But don't you see this over and over around the boards..... A poster's spouse is having an A. They do Plan A.. and they do Plan A... and they do Plan A.... (or what they call Plan A, I don't because there is no honesty, no confronting and no exposure) and then one day that's it. They're done. They've had enough pain and misery and they either file for divorce or let it happen naturally. "

I resemble that remark! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

-ol' 2long.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Ok, if you can tell me what String Theory is, with a straight face... I'll really be worried!! "</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Can't, but if you give me some string cheese I'll gladly eat it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I resemble that remark! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

{{{2QL whatever the heck your name is today}}}

Sorry, I know you do. As do so many that I read every day. <sigh> I wish I could fix it all... where is that wand I made, anyway??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

C