Hi H_P,

Don't let the setbacks get you down. I have to agree with Litchfield, when these things come down on you it is easier to think in short-term goals.

I remember when I hoped I would have 5 minutes that it wouldn't hurt. That eventually became 1 hour, then 1 day, so on and so on. Now I can't tell you the last time I felt truly sad. Well I can actually. It was Dec. 31. I played a song over and over and cried for about 2 hrs. I think it was a kind of letting go, start a new year type thing. Now I do feel sad sometimes about what we have lost, but it doesn't hurt anymore. I think you will find this too. I think you will always feel sadness and guilt about what happened, but, the pain it causes you will fade.

Oh, and that song I cried to. Now it makes me happy. It is about commitment. Clint Black's "When I said I do" It is now a goal for me. It is the type of love I want to have with someone someday.

Take care H_P. I'll check on you.

Sharon

<small>[ April 23, 2003, 09:08 AM: Message edited by: footballwidow ]</small>

H_P- I wish my WH felt as you do. I have been understanding and forgiving from D-Day, people
make mistakes. He confessed his affair, and realized what he was losing. Now he is on the fence again. It's been a few years, and I just keep reading about these WS who want forgiveness from the BS and want to come back and make the marriage work, and I just want my WH to realize how lucky he is that I am forgiving. I just try to stay hopeful.

Hi H_P

Just wanted to pop over and say hello from very sunny warm London (yes, these nice days keep popping up!).

H_P when you likened your feelings to that when you lost your sibling, understand that is exactly what it is. It's grief, it's missing someone, you can't just pick up the phone and have a chat, talk nonsense, share quiet moments, watch the telly. Whatever, it's all of those things.

As Sharon said, the good days are out-weighing the bad for me now, but that doesn't mean that I don't miss H and regret everything that has happened.

Take care of yourself.

Lisa

H_P,

I do hope things get better. You mentioned that you sometimes just get the urge to go over to his place and say Hi! Well, since I live on the "left" coast "
random acts of kindness" are encouraged. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> So sometime, do something nice for him. That would be my take on it. Then just leave him with it.

I suspect he knows how you feel, but he doesn't really know how he feels.

God Bless,

JL

Just a bump H_P to see how you are doing..

Sharon

Thanks, Sharon, for bumping this up. I guess when I came here over the weekend I replied to others' threads, and not my own.

There isn't much new to say at all. I feel better somedays, indeed. However, most of the time I do feel rotten about what's happened.

I dream I'm with my exhusband each time I remember my dream at all. Isn't that sad? I must say that it's only during these dreams of restored marriage that I feel happy and at peace. Then of course I wake up and remember it was just a dream.

I am not as depressed, as I mentioned before. I'm keeping up with things around here, and not just at work. I'm so sad though, I never wanted my life to be this way.

I sent him a 'love expression' email on Sunday. I never heard back. I sent another one today. Perhaps this is the wrong thing to do, but I love him and he needs to know it.

I was out with friends (female) one night this week. I had to call him as I couldn't reach DS's . He helped with that, and was very gracious and kind. In fact, that call to him was after I sent Sunday's note. I think it may have been Tuesday..yes, it was. At first he sounded halfway interested in hearing from me, but I was only calling to ask him to help me with the boys. I really don't know what to do besides these expressions of love and continued devotion to him from afar.

I have no interest in dating anyone else, or thinking of a future with anyone else at all. I still love him.

Thanks to those who replied...

Litchfield,
I like your idea of thinking of a shorter time scale. I will do that! Good idea, indeed. I don't feel I think of him as much during the day, but then I have these dreams. In my mind we really haven't divorced. I haven't accepted it at all. Thanks, as always, for your kindness.

Sharon,

Thanks for your kind words, too. I'm glad to hear that you've gone beyond sadness, and haven't had it since December 31. I'm doing better, although I had a good cry last night and today. I just can't accept this too well.

I looked up the lyrics of the song you mentioned..."When I said I do". It is a lovely one. I always thought I had a marriage like that, and I know I did for awhile. I truly lost my head when I got involved with OM.

Laurie,
Thanks for your understanding too. I hope that your husband gets off that fence, and joins you again. I'm sorry for your pain! You're right, he is LUCKY that you forgive him.

Hi Lisa,
Your words always are a comfort to me, too. I read your thread and follow your happenings there. You're right...as you said,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It's grief, it's missing someone, you can't just pick up the phone and have a chat, talk nonsense, share quiet moments, watch the telly. Whatever, it's all of those things.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The good days don't really outweigh the bad for me. MY saving grace is that I'm a super-achiever in my job. That keeps me sane. On the weekends I wish to be with exH, but that's impossible. Work is a refuge, really. Recreation with other people doesn't do much for me. He and I were always close, and when he worked awful hours I turned in the wrong direction, in an immature fashion.

Oh, if we could turn back the clock!

JL,
As always, you are a beam of light! Thanks for your support and wisdom. I agree that 'random acts of kindness' would be good. I do that as much as I can, and I still send the mushy letters. Maybe that's wrong, but I can't just not let this man think I've forgotten about him.

You're right, I'm sure, that he doesn't know how he feels. It is so sad. I NEVER thought our R would end. I just can't picture ever being interested in another person, at all. Does that seem odd? I prefer being alone.

Thanks to all who've read this post. I admit it has been a 'down' phase for me the last 48 hours. I simply am having a hard time letting go.

Take care,
H_P

Hi MB folks, (Bumping up my previous thoughts)
I'd last spoken on my thread the 22nd of April...thanks for your replies. I wrote again on the 1st of May, but now I'm bumping it up in case anyone has anything to say.

I could really use encouragement of some sort. I still love my husband, (oops, exhusband) and I ache to be with him again.

I hope that a WS such as myself can be a reminder to anyone who's considering an extramarital affair. What a disaster for my life. To all of you BS's who forgive your spouse, God bless you!

H_P

H_P-

I don't have much in the way of advice but wanted to throw in a little encouragement. I really think you're taking the necessary steps in this whole healing process. This path we find ourselves on happens to be a very difficult route but going the distance is the only option.

IMO, it's not odd that you can't envision yourself with someone else. That is the way it is...All it tells me is that you really believe there's alot of stuff left to still be examined between you and your XH. Sometimes I wonder about that with my XW but she's now on the other side of the country. Your XH is there, in the same town, so the possibility of R is real. Only time will tell so Good luck to you!

H_P - I know only too well about the dreams. Kily and I went through a phase at the same time, dreaming about H/ExBF, and it can be really un-nerving. After that, I went through a phase dreaming about OM, and in one dream, they were both in it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> Talk about messed up!!!!

Early on, you said you were prepared to give it 4 years, the length of the A. Well, it's been nowhere near. I wonder if that is healthy for you, but you seem like a determined lady, and I admire that. You have done so well so far. I truly believe that if it is meant to be, it will be.

For me, sadly, I know it isn't. I hear nothing from H, and his behaviour towards me at times has been so outrageous, there is no point in even trying to worry about him and what is going on there. I have been very proactive in trying to recover for me. For now, that is the only person who will be looking out for me, and it is vital that I live my life and not allow myself to be consumed by sadness, depression and regret. That's the easy thing to do, the difficult thing is to pick yourself up, dust yourself down and carry on - you're doing that, and doing it well.

Take care H_P - it's sunny and warm in London again <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Lisa

Hi H_P:

I've been thinking of you and your life. The perfume is pretty full still as I do not go out much.

I'm glad to see that you are still moving forward, even if it is very slowly. I relate to the not wanting anyone else feeling, I'm there too. I've reached a new place though...What would I do if X turned around tody and wanted to work on it? THAT my dear is even MORE scary...I can't answer that any longer...I simply DON'T know WHAT to feel anymore.

You're doing great!

hi hopeful. greetings from the ward. Im just taking a brief excursion into the world of craziness. from time to time I get up the courage to leave this haven of sanity and venture out into the work a day world. read some of your posts. you mentioned you didnt know what to do? so you continue to do the same things. as I once said, repeating a worn out phrase. if you keep doing the same things you have been doing you will keep getting the same things you have been getting. remember. you situation calls for drama. it takes daring and a willingness to assume some risks. maybe I have you attention now. so I will wait untill you are ready for suggestions. you said that ex doesn't know how he feels. refering to jls comment, I think it was. I bet you he does know how he feels in many areas of his life. from your posts, it seems he has made some decisions and those are the hallmarks of someone who knows how they feel. one such example, quoting you, he told you that he was angry , very angry? anger is not always a bad thing. it can protect us. maybe it could speed your recovery if you allowed yourself to be angry. not only at yourself , but at ex, at other man, at providence. I know you will not become an outwardly bitter person. an feel sure that you will be a great person to be around at work and socially. but some anger might strengthen your sense of self. not to offend those who feel as though God is orchestrating their life, but life is often absurd, and recognising that helps us to lessen the dissapointment that fortune often brings. The ward nurse often reminds us how lucky we are to be in here where its safe, and not out there among the crazies. its all in one's perspective isn't it. remember you situation calls for drama. many of us on here want things to go well for you. your nature comes through in your posts God bless

Thanks for your responses,

It's taken me awhile to get back here and address what you've all said. The work week was one of the busiest and most stressful of my life.

I really don't feel I'm doing so well, in many ways. I again dreamed of my exH last night, and it was so sad. He and I were sitting and talking (something we NEVER do- talk or sit together) and our daughter brought up something that happened when she was little. I turned to say something to him, and to share the memory with him, but I couldn't talk. I began to cry and couldn't go on at all. My voice more or less gave out. It's not surprising I'd dream this, as he doesn't want to hear what I have to say. As JL said, the whole marriage ended with a whimper and not a 'bang'. This is so true.

So I'll keep carrying on. I won't lie and say I love being alone. I married very young, at age 22. I wasn't even done with college. I don't like being single at all. I'm used to having a partner to share things with. I can handle it, but I don't like it. Last night I went out to dinner with some girlfriends. When I see all the couples in the restaurant, it makes me very sad. I so want to be with my exH again. It looks doubtful for now.

This weekend he is going to help my brother with some household jobs. I'm glad they still have a relationship, and I suppose it's a tie he still has that might help him see me in a better light. My brother's advice was to not ask exH for any more chances, to just leave him alone completely. To me though that seems a bit unwise as then he's getting nothing from me at all. There's no 'book' on life, so I go by my instincts in this case and let him know I do love him.

Litchfield,
It's always nice to hear from you. Thanks for your thoughts. You're right, going the distance IS the only option. And yes, indeed, it's a good thing he lives near me. It just seems all the more heartbreaking to me though to envision him a mile away, alone, and me here with the children. IT makes no sense. Before the A, we were always able to work our problems out. We NEVER went to bed angry, and were both able to come to some sort of agreement after any sort of problem. He was my best friend for years, and I do miss him dearly!

Lisa,
I appreciate your words, too. You're right, the dreams are unnerving. I tend to have them about exH at least four nights a week. No wonder I don't feel so rested during the day. There's always a deep sense of turmoil.

I too have dreamed of OM once in a great while,(twice in the last 10 months) but always in negative terms. That is really how I now view him, and all that he represents.

I don't know if it's healthy to give it four years, or not. I just don't feel like doing anything else at this point. Between my demanding job and my children, I have a lot to keep me busy. My daughter suffers from depression, and I feel that she needs a lot of me, even though she's 19. I truly hoped that the diagnosis of depression last fall would help my exH to see that we needed to work and be together, and help our DD together. I know it would help her a lot if we were together. Even that does nothing to motivate him to work things out.

Lisa, it's hard to be viewed so negatively by someone you still love , and by someone you've known for 30 years.

At this point, it doesn't look like it's meant to be, not at all. Maybe someday.

You sound very strong! That's wonderful. You're right though, we have to learn from this, and pick ourselves up..and move on. I'm definitely not consumed by depression, sadness, or regret, but I do still feel it if I let myself. Usually I don't have the time to be so indulgent!

Hi KILY!
Thanks for your words, too. I've been following your thread and will find time soon to respond over there. It sounds like you're doing well.

Yes, I'm merely moving forward slowly, that's for sure! I feel differently than you, that's for sure. Even though exH has basically ignored my words for a long time now, if he were to turn up and want me again, I'd be delighted. No doubts there, not at all. I realize though that your situation is very different.

Take care, Kily.

CHECKERS,
Nice to hear from you. Glad to hear that things in the ward are going well. I've been thinking about what you said, that if I keep doing the same thing nothing will change. I have thought about the 'drama' you mentioned. I just haven't had the energy to come up with anything great to do, or try. My work week is draining, and by the evening I might even have more reports to write for work. There's no time to orchestrate much drama, but if you've ideas, that's great.

I agree with this completely--your words about anger:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> . maybe it could speed your recovery if you allowed yourself to be angry. not only at yourself , but at ex, at other man, at providence. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm mostly mad at myself, checkers! I don't know how a level-headed person such as myself got caught up in such awful stuff. I'm only slightly angry with my exH, and that's for not even wanting to try and work things out. I'm not angry with OM--it's who he is. I'm sure he had other affairs, and is used to lying. When I ended it with him one thing I said was, "You've lied to women your whole life, starting with your mom. You're done lying to me, and it's over." You know, before the A , I'd never lied to anyone. So you're right, I guess I am mad with OM for leading me with him down that path of dishonesty.(I guess water finds its own level, but previous to the A I'd never lied--was a very chaste young lady, etc.) He told me at the beginning of the A, "Oh, your husband never has to know....many people do this." He came from a culture known for their suave romanticism, and I fell for it eventually. He knew just what to say, and how to get to me. How could I have fallen so low? I see it as a midlife crisis, as I've said before, but what a price I've had to pay.

You're right, Checkers, I won't be outwardly bitter. I'm one of those cheerful, optimistic people. I can't stand negative people, and I avoid them at work.

This too, I so agree with:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">not to offend those who feel as though God is orchestrating their life, but life is often absurd, and recognising that helps us to lessen the dissapointment that fortune often brings. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The word 'absurd' is so true here. You stated it perfectly.

Any suggestions for the drama of which you speak?

Thanks again for all who've responded on this or any of my threads. I appreciate it very much.

Sharon, thanks for your reply . I answered your words on my previous post on this thread! Hope you're doing well.

God bless,
H_P

<small>[ May 17, 2003, 11:13 AM: Message edited by: hopeful_person ]</small>

Hi H_P,

Good to hear from you again. Hey I'd like to suggest a book for you to read. It is called Rebuilding When Your Relationship Ends by Dr. Bruce Fisher. It will help you with the stages you and your ex are going through. I know you want to rebuild with your husband. I can't hardly imagine what you go through each day. My Ex called yesterday to talk to the kids. His weekly call. I still have a hard time believing he gave everything up. I sometimes wonder if he is as happy as I know he thought he would be. We humans, the things we do for happiness.

I think I have mentioned to you before that I think you will have to completely start over with your ex. I have another friend who's H cheated and they divorced. After 2 yrs he tired of his OW and wanted to get back together. I don't know if they did. I haven't seen her lately. I just know she said it was very hard to start again. She had changed her life, acclimated, and moved on. I have done much the same. We have too. I am sure your ex has too. I can remember mere months ago thinking I would take my H back no matter what for my family, for the old times, for our lives together. But, all that has changed.

I think in terms of attracting your ex back you should be thinking more in terms of how you attracted him in the first place. What did you do when you first started dating? What made him want to marry you? Everyone changes over the lifetime of a long marriage. You need to become the woman he first fell in love with. NOT his wife who cheated on him. All those family memories that you cherish are probably painful to him when thought of in context with you. I have wonderful family memories, but, when I put my Ex in the picture, all it does is make me sad and wonder WHY????

You sound like a wonderful, accomplished woman H_P. One that someone could easily fall for. But is there something missing in the equation? Perhaps in your younger life there was something there that your H doesn't see anymore. It may be as simple as you just NEEDING him. I don't know.

I wish you all the luck. And try the book. It really helps.

Just a side bar. I am doing well. My family is happy. Life goes on I guess.

Take care,

Sharon

Hi H_p

Just a very quick note to check on how you are doing.

Generally you seem to be coping well, and I think that is the best we can do. Cope well with ourselves and prepare ourselves to be better than we were before.

I do fully understand what you say about still wondering how you got to the place that led you to an A. Even my H would say to me "I just can't believe it of you Lisa". Sometimes, I don't even think it was me - I guess it wasn't as I had been abducted by aliens and was on Planet Fog!!! I think I have become better recently at accepting the A. Because of it, I have come to where I am today, and I think I am now in some ways a more insightful and thoughtful person. I know I wouldn't just jump in with both feet in any number of given situations. It was a harsh lesson to learn, but I have learned.

H_P, I feel very lucky at the moment. Things are going along fairly well for me. Work is picking up, I'm going to Switzerland for a long weekend, and I am taking care of myself. Nothing I can do will change what happened, or affect my STBX and his views. As I realised recently, this really isn't about my A anymore, it is about H. You will get to that place too soon I hope.

Take care of yourself and wishing you well from London.

Lisa

Thanks for your replies. It was a great treat to come home from work, check the website, and see that you two had responded! Thanks.

Sharon,
Thanks for the book recommendation. I will seek it out at my local Barnes and Noble. You're right, I do want to rebuild with my exH. It looks very dismal.

Today while working something reminded me of him, again. I truly had to fight back the tears and swallow to try and get rid of the lump in my throat.

I wonder too if your exH is happy. I can't imagine he is, but then on the other hand a friend of mine asserted that perhaps when men are in midlife crisis they only think of themselves. Your exH has no more of the family responsibilities to deal with. Mine doesn't much, either. She also thinks my exH is in one of his own, and likes his life of freedom. I think she's right.

You're right, I must try to attract my exH as I did in the first place. Let's see, when we first met I was a 14 year old leggy, lean, giggling girl. He said he loved me the moment he first met me, and he and I didn't get together for 5 years. We were just friends for years. I don't know how I can even begin to capture that sort of essence of youth again. Suggestions? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I think as far as my exH seeing something when I was younger that he doesn't see now I can only come up with innocence. I certainly don't have that quality now. Also, through the course of a 30 year relationship all of his romantic impressions of me have been shattered. We've been through a lot together- deaths of parents, siblings, a nephew, etc...and so there's no mystery about me anymore. I do let him know I need him, and I still call on him for help and input. I don't know what else I could do.

Thanks for your input, Sharon. Glad that you're doing so well!

Lisa,
Thanks for your words, too.

You sound very strong, and both you and Sharon provide inspiration!

Before I started the A, I didn't have a career or profession. I had too much time on my hands, quite frankly. Class mid-life crisis stuff, and just plain old selfishness. I can accept that now, and I don't feel as bad about me as I used to feel.

Switzerland sounds heavenly. It's a place I plan on visiting one day.

I agree with what you said, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As I realised recently, this really isn't about my A anymore, it is about H. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Some days I do feel that way, completely. However, in the case of my exH I might feel that way but I know it's not true. For me it's only my own rationalization. He truly is a wonderful man, and I blew it big time!!!

Take care, and hope all remains well in London,

H_P

Hi H_P,

Just a question off-topic. How did you get started in your career? I am stagnant. Being home for 24 yrs. with no degree, ugh!! I don't really even know what I want to do. But I have to do something I DON'T like being dependent on my ex. I want to be able to do things for myself. I am working in retail, I like it and do okay, but the money isn't there, or the fulfillment. I know I can do better. But, with the economy, my age, and less than stellar resume, well you get the picture. I plan on going to school. How did you do it? You seem to really enjoy your work.

As far as getting back the mystery. I don't know. I guess it is easy for me to say because I don't see my ex at all. I guess it is something you will have to discover. Well I gotta go wash the color out of my hair.

Sharon

Sharon,

Well, it's never too late! Many people who work with me didn't get their BA until their forties, and many began their new career in their fifties or late forties. Another woman, like me, had the basic BA but had to go back to school to get further schooling before beginning her career. Her husband had passed away, and she needed a decent paying job.

There are many people in my field, as I just said, who are 'late bloomers' and started as mature people. It's been great for me, people simply assume you've been at it much longer by virtue of your age alone. Because of my somewhat detail-oriented nature,I've had many new challenges and leadership positions thrown at me, much to the chagrin of people who've been doing what I do a lot longer. (I'm saying that not to brag, but to let you know that it's never too late! I started my 'career' job at age 41.) I guess what it says is that life experience,diplomacy, and maturity count when you enter the work force at a later age. Look at it as an asset, and not something negative, Sharon!

I truly love my work and look forward to each day. I bring some work home, but it's not something I dread working on at home, most of the time. Most of all I think the job brings an intrinsic reward as I have a people-oriented job. My previous job that I had in business after I finished college and before I had children of my own didn't do this for me at all. It dealt mostly with numbers, and for me it was very unrewarding.

So consider this a pep talk for you, Sharon! As far as affording college, etc, I got a loan to complete my post-graduate work. Still paying on it, but it's not too bad a payment at all. Others I work with got a loan for all of it, in their midforties.

Take care,
H_P

PS Thanks, as always, for your support. I don't know either what to do about 'enticing' my exH to love me again. It seems like a losing battle, but then again JL has said he feels a year after divorce might be a time exH starts to consider it (and me) seriously. I'm certainly hoping he's right. I'll wait several years, but not until I'm in my sixties, as one well-meaning friend has suggested. For me and the way I am, life isn't meant to be spent all alone--pining away for someone I'd lost years ago. I'll do it for awhile, but not forever.

Thank H_P,

You are a good friend. It is good to know there are others just getting started at my age. I am excited and scared but actually looking forward to it. I loved staying home with my kids and raising them. I wouldn't trade that for anything but I am excited to start doing some things for "me". I know that sounds selfish, but I have always put myself last and I don't regret it. But, somehow I got lost, and I feel as if I am finding myself again. Not like I am a different person so much, but that I have confidence and that I am important too. I somehow feel that if I had had this "awakening" a few years ago my ex may not have looked elsewhere. But, perhaps his leaving was what I needed to spur me on.

I appreciate your advice. Yes, I can see how maturity is a real assest. Especially for young minded, attractive, intelligent women like us <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
I can see that in my job. There are a lot of young people I work with and boy, they just view work and responsibility a different way.

H_P I don't know what to tell you about your ex. I know it still kind of hurts me that my ex didn't ever try to reconcile, but, oh well. As I have said only time will tell. I can't imagine you trying any harder, that is, without becoming some stalking lunatic. But, with time either your ex will come around or your mind and heart will change. I know you don't want to hear about the second possibility, but, I also know that you DON'T sound like the kind of person who will be alone, or, deserves to be. I know that I decided I wasn't going to pine away. I just didn't realize that the change would come so soon or so abruptly.

Well, I gotta go meet my daughter for lunch. You have a good week H_P. I will be thinking about you.

Sharon

H-P hi,
Just some words that I hope may help you.
You are getting there, you are realising more and more how completely you have destroyed your marriage.
Please stop making DJ's against your exh. Stop saying he must be unhappy. That is for him to judge. He is what he is. You are what you are.
He is not all good and you are not all bad. He has lived nearly five years without you. Five years these days is a lifetime. For me and for many people careers hopes and fears have all been transformed. You no longer know him.
Please don't live in the past. You have had the opportunity to learn many things and I think you have done so. He owes you nothing and even if you feel you owe him something he isn't the kind of guy to ask for it. In the clearest of ways he has said he no longer wants to know about you. He has divorced you. The only thing you two are is parents. The rest is an illusion.
You now know better what you are. What you need and perhaps more importantly what you can give.
Try to show that with the folks you meet. They will take you into their hearts and you will find comfort with them.
You exh will live again too. Don't feel bad for him. He knows he wasn't there for you when and in the way you needed him.
He knows someone took you away from him and that is not only his deception but his failure.
The dream you once had together is gone. You can't put back the clock. Learn what is to be learnt and then wait for your heart. Heaven knows who it might be. Just make sure it isn't a gigolo who only wants to get into your pants. They are on every street corner.
PS warn your daughter of that too

<small>[ May 21, 2003, 04:56 PM: Message edited by: olderandwiser ]</small>

hi once again hopeful. the ward is quiet for the moment. older and wiser has some words worth reflection. as to your ex., you want to win him over, you have mentioned few times in your posts that you have told him how much you need him. did you hear that statement. how much you need him. the locus of your relationship ,or connection with him is about you. how much you need him. this will not work. i have said before you will have to become a new person to rekindle the flame, or friendship. an important facet of this new person is to change the dynamics of the relationship. how to do that? glad you asked, you begin by changing you. yes you. little ole you. one thing is that you sincerely approach contact with how much does he need you? not much obviously, then your question should be; what does he need? what can you give him? he has to feel this. if the change in your outlook is real any contact with him will cause him to feel this concern for his well being. now to reflect. in the past you concern was all about you. that goes without saying. that is a first step. a next step, this calls for some risk. the risk of rejection. you have felt this from him and he has been decimated by rejection from you. I would suggest that you begin by dropping by his place maybe once a week and ask if you can come in a visit. also , soften this by saying that you don't want him to be uncomfortable but please allow you some time with him at his house. he is not going to like this at first I don't think. but from what you have said about him I think he will allow you to come in and sit a while. only stay for half hour or so. chat not heavy stuff but ask him about himself, his job, his hopes, his interests, later visits maybe together reflect on happy times , tell him a joke or two. this is going to be awkward. if he asks you why this you might reply that you are in need of a friend and that is all you hope for. don't ask for date, don't ask him to visit you. just try to get his acceptance for you to drop by unannounced from time to time. this will be hard for you and him, but maybe the challenge will make it interesting . this is the cold call, or hard sell as its known in the sales trade. thinking on ones feet so to speak, but know the general framework of your approach. that is know what subjects you will avoid.I have given you two suggestions. remake orient yourself and then forceably approach him. tying this is very difficult with mittens but it can be done. its part of our training to increase our sensitivity here. God bless will write later.