Well folks. Here's what "happened" and how I feel about it this time:
A while after I got home last night, my W told me that she had talked to RM on the phone. She's needed to get hold of him about some boxes that haven't been returned yet, and had been leaving him messages because he's been out of the office a lot. She then said that he was going to be in town this weekend, and if he finds the samples, he'll drop them off at the office. Thankfully, my W and I will be out of state this weekend!!!! ;o)

I said little, mostly just sat there. I was a bit annoyed with HIM for losing track of yet another set of samples, but I was pretty numb about my feelings about how my W "handled" it. Most of my emotional reaction came up later as I was thinking about it.

Though I didn't express my hurt much, or so I thought, my W held her arms out to me and gave me one of the tightest hugs I think she's ever given me. I held her back and said "I'm just a little scared, that's all." She didn't reply but just kept hugging.

♠Stuff I "know:"
♣Well, maybe "know" is too unequivocal a word, but I've known that contact through work has continued, and she told me she talked to him on the phone in January after I'd seen his number on her cell bill.
♣He will likely be consulting for her for several more months.
♣He's hard to get hold of. There could be a whole host of reasons for this, not the least of which his life is in a mess, or it has been.
♣My W really is "trying" to the extent that she knows how and is receptive (pretty much not) to being "educated" with methods and principles.
♣This is where I missed some things she said: When she said he'd be in town this weekend, she said something like "ironically, he'll be in town..." or "unfortunately, he'll be here when I'm not". You can see the distinction. One is cool, the other is "I miss him" or something like that. I honestly don't know which she said, but it actually felt like she may be relieved that she won't be here, but not as relieved as a similar "event" last May (but she didn't know I knew he was going to be around then).
As with blowups in the past (though this wasn't one at all), she was very friendly the rest of the evening and this morning. The "truth" is that it would have been extremely easy for her to not even tell me about the call, let alone about the numerous attempts to contact him before this call. So, I give her a lot of credit for doing that.

But what do I do now? I was pretty floored, though not all that emotionally affected, by the news, and so I believe I actually missed some things she said about it. Like I surmise that:
♣My W still feels she needs to contact him personally, because the coworker that she had planned to train to handle that part of the work has not worked out sufficiently enough to deal with his input competently. Or doesn't have enough time. These are distinct possibilities, but I still wonder how much of it is just an excuse to talk to him again. In any case, I could TELL that something was still standing between us the past 3 months since the last big discussion, and based on my experience, it wasn't too hard to guess that contact (and being jerked back into those feelings) was the issue.

Regardless of the news and what it signifies, I FEEL very different this time than even in the very recent past. Sure, I still want our M to work out and will continue to work toward that goal. But no, I don't want to keep us together at "all costs". Meaning, if we're not mutually committed to each other, to the exclusion of all other emotionally and physically intimate relationships, particularly with previous A partners, then I will figure that out and make it clear that I won't stay under those conditions. At this point, I believe I am getting to a state of mind where I could make that clear without LBing. I'm not ready to do it yet, though, because I don't think we're in a "dire state" at this point, or I haven't figured us out enough yet.

♠Things I need to do SOON:
♣I need to ask her about the significance of this contact from a personal standpoint. How did she feel? What did they talk about, specifically? (I realize that I may not get answers to those questions, necessarily)
♣An update on how much longer he will be consulting for her. Remember, she's threatened to quit several times over the past 6 months or so. I'd encourage it if I didn't think it would come across as a control issue. I think I can tell her that I would be relieved because the need for contact would end, and I think I could say it without LBing.
♣Depending on what's going on over at HIS end (which my W would have to confide in me regarding for me to really "know"), I may contact RM myself. At the moment, it "looks" like his M is broken, but his coworkers/employer don't know that his inappropriate R with the person he's consulting for is the cause of that breakup (assuming they even know his M is broken). If I contact him, it will be to wake him up a bit so he doesn't hold out hope that, if he just waits a while for me to get complacent, he can resume the A. I don't really have any desire to be vindictive, but it's really hard not to be viewed that way by him or my W no matter what I say or do. And, in the end, do I really need to do anything? After all, like I said above, I can tell our M isn't put back together. I can tell that there's an emotional distraction still going on. Being vindictive, or even being perceived that way, will undo a lot of progress we've made back together. It's just that, with all this time, it's sometimes very hard to feel like there will really be light at the end of the tunnel someday. But I'll hold off, if that's what's called for.

Good news! I found my R books! I just opened Greg Baer's book and read this this morning:

"One-Sided Loving:

In the beginning, we all need to be loved by people who are willing to stay with us while we learn to tell the truth and feel their love. We need to be loved while we have nothing to give in return, and while we still use Getting and Protecting Behaviors. Our partners need the same experience. Are we willing to sometimes be the one to do that for them? Are we willing to love a partner who gives us little or nothing in return? If not, we'll never learn to be loving and will not have loving relationships...
...Many people refuse to give love in a relationship when they're not immediately rewarded with something in return. They abandon their relationships whenever the exchange of love is "unfair." Such people cannot create loving relationships. Before a relationship can break out of a pattern of self-protection and trading Imitation Love, one partner must be willing to tell the truth about himself and find unconditional love without any promise of cooperation from the other. He can then bring that love back to the relationship, which will then unavoidably change. Waiting on our partner to take the first step, or even to cooperate and take each step after us, is selfish and unproductive."

This certainly true in the case of surviving infidelity. And I've been able to demonstrate it in my own case for the past 6 or 8 months (when I'm not LBing, at least), by following these kinds of examples and applying the approach to my sitch. But it certainly wasn't easy at first (hence the massive LBs!), but it's getting easier with time.

It really is a conscious, nearly constant effort to keep this in mind: That I can't expect my W to do anything "for me." I can only practice what I've learned will be productive for my future life. If it's with her, then I've not only succeeded in fixing myself, but I've made our M attractive enough to her that she won't leave, or continue her A.

So. Did I ask a question? Or just make a statement? ;o)
♥Qfwfq

Hi Q-

I think you were just reaffirming the concept of uncondititonal love. Now here is the question...

How long are you willing to offer this one sided love? How much time has to pass without any returned love before you decide to move on?

I agree wholeheartedly with that you've proposed. My questions are based from my own sitch. My sons father has someone moving in. It seems hopeless. Am I wrong to give up? For everything that has happened, I still want to make it work....even now. The last conversation we has, he asked me what I want...I said: "For this whole f..king nightmare to go away." He said "it will NEVER happen. Should I ignore words and actions and go on my gut feelings which are telling me to hang in there......he is getting married and I'm still believing that I can love hihm back to me...

K/Q.. this whole thing about unconditinal love is really straing to get me confused..How long to we have to keep going.. I myself am trying to pary as much as possible.. many of the gang here says that he won't let you down. Also have faith and believe..I am trying to keep up with Plan A as well not sure how much luck it will do.. just keep saying that you believe in your marraige vows and that you love your WS.. I really am not good at this advise thing since my mind sos so screwed up at present..but I am remaining faithful to the end...

You can always love a person even if you are no longer living with or taking care of him/her. A good example of this would be adult children who have grown out of their dependence of their parents. Why not an ex-spouse to?

It's been said that the opposite of love is not hate, but indifference. If we beleive this to be true, then unconditional love could be defined in terms of caring, even when it is no longer possible for us to be in his/her life.

What I'm trying to say, is that divorce does not necessarily end love for the ex-spouse, even in the face of remarriage for one or both.

But love is never enough to build a marriage or a relationship on. There also has to be a sharing of values and a common vision of the future, otherwise it will not endure.

kily:

"I think you were just reaffirming the concept of uncondititonal love."

Indeed.

"Now here is the question...
How long are you willing to offer this one sided love?"

Well, indefinitely, I guess. Otherwise it's a "test", it's conditional. That doesn't mean that I have to STAY, though.

"How much time has to pass without any returned love before you decide to move on?"

Not going to put a time limit on it. Because every time I did, I set up expectations and disappointed myself and frustrated her. But that doesn't mean I won't move on at some point. I just don't know when. And by not saying "when" I'm not blinding myself to the progress that does happen because I'd be trying to control the outcome. My W is pretty loving. Not 100% loving, but better than most of the past 12 years.

"I agree wholeheartedly with that you've proposed. My questions are based from my own sitch. My sons father has someone moving in. It seems hopeless. Am I wrong to give up?"

Not at all. So long as you can say that you did all you could, you've maximized your chances that you WILL have a rewarding R in the future.

"For everything that has happened, I still want to make it work....even now. The last conversation we has, he asked me what I want...I said: "For this whole f..king nightmare to go away." He said "it will NEVER happen."

An interesting dialog, actually. HIs answer just may have been to say that the past can't be changed. Or a subconscious realization that dwelling on what's happened won't fix anything.

"Should I ignore words and actions and go on my gut feelings which are telling me to hang in there..."

I think so. I know that's what I'm doing when I'm most successful (meaning, content with myself and what I'm doing).

"...he is getting married and I'm still believing that I can love hihm back to me..."

Maybe this is the wrong objective. Love him for who he is right now, or decide that you can't accept who he is and move on. This is what unconditional love is about. It's not about "taking it", putting up with bad behavior for some "vain" hope that you'll "win" the WS back. You certainly can love him all you want (and loving unconditionally will reward YOU, not just him). Just don't expect. He has to get past the resentment, and it seems like his current actions - this new R and impending M - are driven by resentment. That's not a rewarding existence!

I don't know if that's really the case in your sitch, though.

Remember, too, that my W has never left me and for the moment has promised to be at least physically faithful to me while she decides whether she wants to stay long term or not. Often, that strikes me as silly. After all, she has said in no uncertain terms that she doesn't want to be M'd, doesn't want a H, still calls me "spouse", but what do those things really mean? She's certainly come a long way back to our M (though I've been careful NOT to point it out that way) over the past year and a half since she last saw RM. Does that mean she'll someday realize that she DOES want to be M'd, and DOES want a H? I don't know. I sorta think so?

I've been viewing the past 3 months or so more as an experiment of sorts. I've made some significant progress:
♣I'm so convinced that I can "tell" whether our M is 100/100 or not that I not only don't have any desire to snoop anymore, but I've updated all the system software on our computers to the extent that I can no longer recover erased emails between my W and RM that I had seen last year. I don't want to read them again. I don't want to be tempted to ever read them again (or have them fall into the wrong hands). Dwelling on them just rewinds and replays the tapes in my head.
♣I truly feel better about my own abilities to be a "good H." I'm not quite to the point where I would say "I did all I could to save this M" but I can see THAT light at the end of the tunnel. And in the meantime, my vision is clear enough that I can watch the progress on HER end and so be able to decide whether I'm the right companion for her in the long term. All without resentment, or time limits, or LB$ hypotheses...

She asked me the other day what I would do if the company that I interviewed with out of state last August were to change their minds and offer me a job (they turned me down at the time). This could happen in my business. I don't even remember what I said in reply, because it hit me that if I did accept an offer, it would be entirely without spite for the past 12 years. At this point, if they did offer me a job right now, I'd seriously consider it. And I'd likely go alone unless she were to decide that she wants M and me as a H. If an offer came later, who knows? (I actually did get urged to apply at another location while I was in Houston last week, but that's not the same as an offer, and they pay considerably less than I make now).

Upshot of all this is I have a lot of R work to do yet. So I'm not ready to move anywhere at the moment, I don't think. But I could if I had to.

-Qfwfq

Some ranging comments:

Talking about the future
If you do have the talk about "emotional/physical exclusiveness", consdier talking about it as a "I'm concerned about ..... in X situation" rather than "X situation isn't good enough for me.". It's a lot more subtle than that, and I know you know about that issue (since you mentioned getting it to a non-LBing way), but I'm not sure if you need to wait until dire straits to talk about it.

Talking to OM
I do see some potential benefits from incenting OM to limit talking to your W. Especially in light of the current effect of contact. Those benefits might be worth some short-term fireworks. Good luck with coming to a decision and/or plan for that.

Unconditional Love
Since what many people are willing to call "unconditional" love is in fact, based on conditions, I wonder if it wouldn't be more helpful to call it something else. And reserve unconditional love for those truly capable of it. I'm not saying that what people call "unconditional love" doesn't exist. I just believe that it is something of a misnomer when applied to people situations, especially couples.

est:

"Some ranging comments:
Talking about the future
If you do have the talk about "emotional/physical exclusiveness", consdier talking about it as a "I'm concerned about ..... in X situation" rather than "X situation isn't good enough for me.". It's a lot more subtle than that, and I know you know about that issue (since you mentioned getting it to a non-LBing way), but I'm not sure if you need to wait until dire straits to talk about it."

This is a great point. It is amazingly subtle, isn't it? I think I'll be okay with this. And since we'll have some time alone this weekend, I'll consider talking about my concerns some, without LBing of course.

"Talking to OM
I do see some potential benefits from incenting OM to limit talking to your W. Especially in light of the current effect of contact. Those benefits might be worth some short-term fireworks. Good luck with coming to a decision and/or plan for that."

I think I've already decided I don't need to do anything about him on HIS end. Don't need the fireworks either. I think I made my position clear to my W last night as to where I stand at the moment. And in spite of my complaint yesterday that "actions don't speak", I'm a lot better than I would have given myself credit for at reading her actions and expressing my feelings through my actions.

"Unconditional Love
Since what many people are willing to call "unconditional" love is in fact, based on conditions, I wonder if it wouldn't be more helpful to call it something else."

We do. It's called conditional love or as Greg Baer prefers to call it "Imitation Love." No, unconditional love doesn't need a new label, people need to learn what it is and realize they're not practicing it.

"And reserve unconditional love for those truly capable of it."

Being who?

"I'm not saying that what people call "unconditional love" doesn't exist. I just believe that it is something of a misnomer when applied to people situations, especially couples. "

I don't. Unconditional love should be the foundation of "romantic" or "chemical" or "conditional" love within a M. M is a contract, and contracts are full of conditions. But that doesn't mean that the love between M'd couples has to be or even should be conditional.

-Qfwfq

Wow Q,

First of all I'm impressed that your W did such a great job telling you about the phone call. She clearly sees how her past secrecy has hurt your relationship.

You handled the information very well. It's so easy in the shock and initial hurt of hearing this type of news to strike out! You didn't!!

Plus the hug on her part, seems like she recognizes your pain and wants to comfort you.

What neat progress. You seem to be in a good place now - which bodes very well for your future!!

What great timing that you'll be out of town together. How very irritating for the OM! HA!

Blessings, CSue

Q,

I agree with CSue...your wife is taking some steps forward, even if small. she is definitely pointed in the right direction.

In His arms.

CSue:

"What great timing that you'll be out of town together. How very irritating for the OM! HA!"

I gotta 'fess out. I giggled a number of times on my way in to work this morning. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

-ol' Qfwfq

Q,

It's nice to see this progress being made. I'm seeing both progress with you personally AND with your R with your W. All good stuff. Sure, you still have a ways to go, but this all sounds like positive progress to me.

I agree that the statements your W made to you reagarding the necessary contact with OM are good. At least she is being honest about it, and I don't think she is looking to spend extra time with him. Like you said, though, you have made your opinion on this known, she knows how you feel about it, and that's all you can hope for. She is being validating of that as well, which is good.

Have a great weekend with her and keep up the great work, you're controlling those LB's very well from what I can see, and I sense good things about your future as well.

ALS

I guess it sounded from some lines that the OM was being borderline pesty. You know having someone waiting for you to fail is a downer. I don't think you need to speak to OM, but there is the potential to help. Especially if you feel that the continued contact and "accidental" reasons for contact are affecting your recovery.

To restate it, a goal of yours is to have NC between W and OM. I know you've thought about this for a long time, so I'm not going to say much. I just thought this was one realistic way to acheive that goal.

Back to unconditional love. My point is that most love is conditional. Chemical, romantic, "foundation", etc. In my mind, only God is capable of substantial amounts of unconditional love.

Here's an logic exercise. Let's take all your feelings of love regardless of description. And let's say you're subjects to tons and tons of abuse and neglect. She maims you and puts you into huge debt. You divorce and it's years past. What you have left is "unconditional love". Since most people would have nothing or very little left, that's why I think "unconditional love" is a misnomer. Most (all?) of the love went away when the conditions for it went away.

On the other hand, there is obviously something that keeps you going. And lots of people call that "unconditional love". But as I point out above, it can't very well be unconditional if it goes away when conditions change.

But it's really just different words for basically the same thing.

I sort of regret that all I'm offering now is just some debate points. At least let me wish you continuing strength.

ALS:

Thanks! I think you're doing well, too!

-ol' Qfwfq

est:

Thanks for your post!

"I guess it sounded from some lines that the OM was being borderline pesty. You know having someone waiting for you to fail is a downer."

I've thought about this a lot. When I get "down" is because I feel like he's being a pest. I really have no idea whether he is or not, because I don't hear from my W all that much about what he's up to. Last time she said he said he didn't want her to leave her family. Well, even that can be interpreted as infringement (e.g., RM wants to resume the A and let my W continue to cake walk). But even his December request that she come live with him could be interpreted as simply taking responsibility for the mess he's caused. Well, alright. Maybe that's going too far!! ;o).

"I don't think you need to speak to OM, but there is the potential to help. Especially if you feel that the continued contact and "accidental" reasons for contact are affecting your recovery."

They probably ARE affecting OUR recovery, but they're strengthening MINE. I really mean that. I'm getting better at showing my W that I love her in spite of RM. I consider continued contact as a challenge. At the end of the process, if I'm doing well, he's going to look like the proverbial turd in a cesspool. I just need him to get to the point where every time he opens his mouth it's to change feet! My W is starting to see this now, but again I base that on what little I hear about him from her (and my D, because she works for my W now, and so is aware of how thoroughly he screws up work!) ;o)

"To restate it, a goal of yours is to have NC between W and OM. I know you've thought about this for a long time, so I'm not going to say much. I just thought this was one realistic way to acheive that goal."

It still might be. But for now, I'm going to play it by ear. And vision! (reference to actions versus words!).

"Back to unconditional love. My point is that most love is conditional. Chemical, romantic, "foundation", etc. In my mind, only God is capable of substantial amounts of unconditional love."

This is cool. A lot of people feel that way. I'm an atheist, though, but even if I weren't, I think that ulove, like perfection or peace, is something we should strive to achieve, even if we're usually unsuccessful at reaching it.

"Here's an logic exercise. Let's take all your feelings of love regardless of description. And let's say you're subjects to tons and tons of abuse and neglect. She maims you and puts you into huge debt. You divorce and it's years past. What you have left is "unconditional love". Since most people would have nothing or very little left, that's why I think "unconditional love" is a misnomer. Most (all?) of the love went away when the conditions for it went away."

But that's just the point. If there were conditions, it wasn't unconditional, was it? It was something else. "True" ulove would not be affected by that scenario. Doesn't mean that people who espouse ulove are 100% successful all the time. They're not.

"On the other hand, there is obviously something that keeps you going. And lots of people call that "unconditional love". But as I point out above, it can't very well be unconditional if it goes away when conditions change."

I think that's what it is. In reference to things like the LB$, I can see that my romantic love for my W might waver, but that's not the same as my acceptance of her as she is - I can do that without being M'd to her. In fact, it might be by that acceptance that I decide to NOT stay M'd to her. That's love, being willing to accept that staying with me hinders her quest for happiness. Currently, I don't believe that it does, but who knows about the future? But it's not bloody likely that RM has a clue about REALLY accepting my W for who she is!

"But it's really just different words for basically the same thing."

I agree.

"I sort of regret that all I'm offering now is just some debate points. At least let me wish you continuing strength."

Thank you very much!
-ol' Qfwfq

~Q~

Just need to express the parental voice from within me right now.

Stay on your toes.

There is sometimes a tendency for a fence-sitting WSs to reveal a part of the truth , while withholding another part of the truth. (Just ask any FWS here)

I am just saying....

Be careful here.

Say little and pay attention.

Pepper

<small>[ March 25, 2003, 08:12 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Pepper:

Now that's an interesting post. Hm... I'm pretty sure she's keeping secrets from me even now. Heck, she'd have to, wouldn't she?

Anyway, I don't think it would be sensible for me to drop off my toes.

Something my D said in January when I mentioned to her, after my W and I had that last argument about the phone call: I told her that I knew my W was keeping her hotmail account to communicate with RM. She had opened the account speciffically for that purpose in about May or June. Well, my W had been telling me for the past 5 or 6 months that she's been using it for other correspondence as well. I wasn't sure whether to believe her, but my D said that she's seen her account open on her laptop at work, and hasn't seen RM show up in a while, though she was communicating with him about work using that account. Most of the time, she used it to talk to her friend/coworker, because their work ISP was pretty flakey. Now, she's using the work and a new home ISP account more. I have no idea whether she's using the hotmail account still.

Another thing I realized. When I told her last night that "I'm just scared", I noticed that I wasn't all that sincere. At least not about my feelings about MY hurt. I was scared for her more than myself. I really didn't feel all that hurt. Maybe more "resolved." I don't mean to imply that I'm ready to toss in the chamois and DV her. I'm not. More like I'm feeling pity for her plight.

Does that make any sense?

-ol' Qfwfq

"Does that make any sense"

More than you know big guy. We are suffering big time here with this "kid" issue .... and I'm a regular half wit most of the time currently.

Pep

<small>[ March 25, 2003, 08:43 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>