I learned through a third-party that my H has moved in with OW. Probably yesterday. I got a brief email today about this from H. He spent only 4 days, at most, in a neutral third place. He can't stand being alone.

I phoned him up to discuss (again) theater tickets. He is going with her. He never got back to tell me so. Definitely Fog Land. I was sweet as pie. Tone of conversation affectionate. Presumably in front of her.

A friend who knows OW said he will give me a string of pearls if this lasts more than a month. He says OW is very unbalanced, and my H is going to see this living with her very quickly. He's giving it two weeks.

Things could hit the wall very fast now. But maybe not.

Maybe my calling her every day and having pleasant, affectionate phone calls with my H will hasten things along. Maybe that's mean, but this is war. Maybe making sure he sees me around, being warm, though not letting him back to homestead until it's over with OW.

My H said he is feeling "strange" already. His health is shaky, so are his emotions. He's done too much too fast too violently with a strange woman.

My temptation is to keep Plan A but from a distance. He's too deep in Fog for Plan B to make much of a dent, I think. He is kind of an "out of sight, out of mind" person. He tends to drift aimlessly from thing to thing. Maybe subtly reminding him he has a home to go to, so that when things crash... People are blown away by what he's doing. (For all I know, he's headed for a breakdown himself.)

See earlier thread on "Is my H trying to NC me?" for background.

Redhat, I don't even know how to begin to bargain with him to take him back. Don't even know how I could take him back. Don't know what the terms will be -- though I know there must be some. I feel a crash coming, and I don't know what's going to happen. I can begin to reason with him after the crash. And after the crash I'll know if I can take him back...I guess.

<small>[ March 26, 2003, 02:35 AM: Message edited by: A.M.Martin ]</small>

Hey AM,

Yhis is the time to let him crash and hit bottom. He is already with the OW, pull back and let her meet ALL his needs.

JMHO, it is hard but if you do this you may not have to go through all that I did back 2 years ago. I am much stronger now and don't think twice about implementing plan B. When I show that card, then WS quickly straightens up but I don't threaten him. I bring it out for me because my boundary is NOT to have the OW in my life.

See if you can bring in your support group. Pray for a clear mind and a calm heart. You are going to need it.

take care,
L.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by A.M.Martin:
<strong>A friend who knows OW said he will give me a string of pearls if this lasts more than a month. He says OW is very unbalanced, and my H is going to see this living with her very quickly. He's giving it two weeks.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Based on the above statement, I am more convinced for you to do tough love. OW is not ready to take your WH !. I don't mean for you to bargain with him ... he has to follow your boundry. Minimum is follow How A should ends ... NC letter and all monitoring in place. Getting IC/MC conseling ! and start following MB to recover your M. Take his NC and use it against WH, no more contact until he is willing. Change your door key, keep financial separate, and get a middle person to get the message, no contact with him. Or if you are strong enough, use email but reply as if you reply to a brand new customer. Talk to a lawyer, not to file but to check what are your right.

I got some question on your other post about him and comment ... some are 2x4 ...
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>This is a man who doesn't know how to have a casual affair </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you have an open M with H ?. ONS is fine ? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>He is naive</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not, he is cake eater for sure and you enableing him to be wayward spouse. You 've trained him to be one. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>This, I think, is the problem. Plus he has a whole bunch of unaddressed emotional problems</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Send him to crash and burn so that he could address his problem until then he will keep repeating this kind of actions.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Redhat, I honestly think this guy is a "out of sight, out of mind" kind of person. I think if there is any, any hope of reconciliation, I had better keep up an occasional sweet, businesslike email, dropping hints but making no promises. Meanwhile, moving ahead with my life.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nope, use "tough love" ... withdraw all contact and all ENs supports. I am absolutly in agreement with Orchid and she could really help you with "tough love".

-rh-

No, there was no open marriage. Point is, each time he has an affair it ends in a marriage. He's only been with five women in his life -- three were wives, and this is the fifth. (He's 58.) That's what I mean by he doesn't know how to have a casual affair. If he comes back to this marriage, it will be breaking a pattern for him.

I think he could be headed for some kind of breakdown. What you call "cake-eating" I'm not sure isn't some kind of weird sickness. Frankly, my treatment of him is more like he's a psychiatric patient, rather than Plan A. I'm pleasant and kind and affectionate but brief. It's after midnight, I'll think about what you say. I have some more questions.

One question: everyone said I hadn't done Plan A enough -- is there a way to soften Plan B so he doesn't use it as an excuse that I've cut him off? He would like to do so. We live in a small community -- would I have to avoid friendly eye contact and saying hello? Problem with finances: I'm one of those women who didn't even handle the checkbook. He did all the money stuff. Redhat, what about the divorce-busting stuff you recommended I read?

I don't see I'm giving him any ENs right now -- a couple brief phone conversations over the past week, a couple pleasant emails, also brief. I don't know that Plan B would get through... He's not allowed in the house, anyway. (Except by appt. with son when I'm not here.) We've hardly had any contact at all. Am I wrong? He's already proven he's willing to give up the marriage (I told him no contact ever when he moved out, changed to more Plan A on advice), but I don't think he's in his head. He has all this Fog Talk about how he never loved me and it never would have worked. He's very rational -- just out of his gord. Completely different from what he said two months ago.

Everyone thinks he'll figure out this woman is nuts. I'm not so sure. He's known her for years. Involved with her for four months -- she's not crazy enough to call 911. I think he's too naive to know what nuts looks like -- or maybe he's gone nuts himself.

Went to theater tonight. H and OW were there. Community is aghast. I'm brave little Mother Courage. This is all very public now, and it's a relief.

<small>[ March 26, 2003, 03:02 AM: Message edited by: A.M.Martin ]</small>

Let me put it this way: this is a man who desperately wants other people to make his decisions for him. I kicked him out last week -- hence he used it to justify moving in to OW's. If I cut him off completely, he will use it to justify turning his back on the marriage completely. He's already 95 percent turned. But some part of him is still holding back...

I think if this woman pushes him for a divorce, he will file tomorrow. She might already be doing it (since I haven't had a substantive conversation with him in weeks, I don't know what he's thinking).

I guess I feel he's not really getting anything from me (I guess the Plan A email yesterday was a mistake, even though it was brief) except a warm smile and a few brief verbal exchanges. My intuition tells me to slow down a bit and let the craziness build on their side.

By pushing off when it's still rosy on their side, I'm pushing her into his lap. He's not getting anything from me anyway -- no home, no dinners, no kisses, no hugs, no conversation, no warm fuzzies. What ENs am I giving?

It's late; I'm wordy. I'm not trying to argue, but I do need a little persuasion. Right now I feel he would do anything for her -- I feel I should let a few doubts creep in on his side. But how? This man is obtuse beyond all measure.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I kicked him out last week</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You can not plan A someone who you kicked out. It's mutually exclusive.

<small>[ March 26, 2003, 03:20 AM: Message edited by: 2MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

A.M.Martin,

Don't bang your head with plan A. He definitly has issues on his own. OM is the same way, 3 Dv 3x & multiple A, emotionally damage good. OMW now ex, try to plan A but it was taken advantage and to no avail but misery living in coaster for almost 2 years. Finally she is ready to shut the door down. Could you imagine that OM is trying to play mind game with his ExW and still sleeping with my ExW ?. You could plan A if you want to but H has too much issues, he has to break the a pattern of cycle himself. Even in MB recognizes that any personal issues (that involve addiction or abuse) has to be resolve first.

I have a few question. How old are you and how old are OW ?. Is your H a mama's boy ?. Were your M started as A and you were OW yourself ?.

I have not recomended divorce busting by Michelle, it is a good book, a step by step one type of plan A. My problem is one dimensional plan A, not for every one.

I am glad that A has seen the day light. You should get busy learning about MB and leave H alone. You should understand well 4 rules of recovery and how A should ends. Please list his complaints about you in M, you need it for "care & LB". Get back here to vent or to ask questions or post to others.

-rh-

AM,
I think you've got good instincts.

You're pleasant, polite when you talk to him.

You've set boundaries, he can't just walk into the house without calling--I did that too in about the 4th separation (slow learner <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ).

DIVORCE BUSTING by Michelle Weiner-Davis, good book to read when you are separated. My other favorite on separation is HOPE FOR THE SEPARATED by Gary Chapman.

I'll be honest, I failed at Plan B, twice, 4th separation & 7th. With no relatives nearby & my friends worn out, I couldn't impose in order to acheive no contact with my H. What my counselor suggested was to "act if divorced" when I dealt with my H. Not meeting needs, cordial about the kids, boundaries about the household, set visitation times, no more talk about reconciliation.

It was enough of a difference that my H noticed and wasn't comfortable with that vision of our future. Maybe your H would notice, maybe he wouldn't.

But like Orchid & Redhat are saying...the situation with OW blowing up in his face is a good outcome and probably needs to happen before you offer reconciliation again.

But, in the mean time, if you can keep yourself emotionally at a point where you are willing to reconcile if he straightens out, that would be your personal goal for now. That idea comes from the book RECONCILABLE DIFFERENCES by Jim Talley, another favorite of mine that helped me focus on the long haul, not the daily crapfest.

<small>[ March 26, 2003, 10:27 AM: Message edited by: Lor (Lor) ]</small>

Perhaps you're right. Time to cut the cord. What little of the cord exists.

I'm 49. My husband is 58. I've known him for a quarter-century. I was a good friend of his first wife, with whom he had three children and a 20 year marriage. The marriage had visible strains -- he often seemed irritable. But what marriage doesn't?

When that marriage went bust for a much-younger woman, we were all shocked. He seemed to lose his mid-life head. I was a strong partisan of the first wife, who was cruelly dumped. But I was outraged when Wife #2 casually began an A of her own, and he was wild to get her back. My friendship with him turned into something more during that time, but he was determined to keep Wife #2, who had no strong feelings about him. I understood, and put no pressure on him to leave his marriage. They were living abroad at that time, anyway. Eventually, she dumped him for a different man. I know you all are going to jump down my throat on this one -- but I really thought he had "learned" something from first two marriages. I thought it was the common pattern: man leaves long-term wife for unsuitable much-younger woman who leaves him, then marries more suitable third wife. Everyone thought we were a great couple.

I was sadly mistaken. The new turn of events makes it look like this is the sad ungluing of a once fine man. He is becoming strange and weird, and the OW this time is not a normal person. He can't see this, he may not see this because he is becoming strange himself. The only difference in the pattern: I want him back, and am willing to work. He does have a home to return to. Other differences: the speed of this relationship, and its inappropriateness.

Others are going to be putting pressure on him. Would it be reasonable, Orchid et al., if I just lay low for a couple of weeks, let the pressure from others mount, see how the wind is blowing, then maybe send a Plan B letter? As someone suggested, keep necessary communication (which he must initiate) to a very occasional cool-but-pleasant email in the interim? I think he, or she, could be headed for some sort of weird psychological breakdown. This is not a normal situation.

He's never come back to a woman -- tends to drift away. He uses everything the woman does -- serving papers, moving out, etc. -- to increase the drift. Aimless.

This is so sad, sad, sad. Really, only God can save it -- and I pray for that intervention daily. Nothing that has happened is greater than His mercy. No, this relationship did not begin on a good note, but I gave it my best. I really did weave together a reconstituted family into a strong loving unit (my daughter adores his son, and really regards him as a brother); it's been shattered.

One last question, that will seem like an irrelevancy: my oldest stepson's birthday is next weekend, and he is coming to visit. Should I make the kids troop to OW's house? I don't want to have H here, of course. But on the other hand, do I want to force OW to be hostess? My H has no sensitivity at all -- won't sense the tactlessness or incongruity of anything. (I think the community is stunned by his tactlessness last night, appearing publicly with OW.)

Redhat, I have read SAA and MB site, How to End an A, etc. But H has no intention of ending his affair now, and may be moving it to marriage. Watching this man through two divorces, I don't think Plan B will get through. I've learned as much about these things as I can, I think. Am I missing something?

Redhat, in answer to your last question -- he had no complaints about me. Admitted this was all his problem taking me for granted. Only complaints: talking about "the relationship." My tendency to grill him when he was incommunicative. Small irritants I already worked out in MC and Plan A.

Lor, I'm already doing what you suggest, pretty much. Talking as if already divorced -- on the rare occasions we talk. I haven't discussed any reconciliation. What would be the point?

<small>[ March 26, 2003, 11:07 AM: Message edited by: A.M.Martin ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by A.M.Martin:
<strong>Redhat, I have read SAA and MB site, How to End an A, etc. But H has no intention of ending his affair now, and may be moving it to marriage. Watching this man through two divorces, I don't think Plan B will get through. I've learned as much about these things as I can, I think. Am I missing something?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for your honesty in admitting you were ExOW. I still have 2 unanswered questions, you could ignored it if you don't want to answer it: How old OW ?. How close is he with his mom ?. He probably has a very low selfesteem and need alpha-male ego boost and if that need is very strong he might put up with her crap. What is your own take on why he has this A ?.

I agree with you to lay low and to let A play out itself. Now about MB. If WS rejects plan A, i.e has no impact, then there is no option for BS but to go to plan B. The key is when to go to plan B. Plan B is a gamble since it is not viable to continue plan A. One should go to plan B just before one would say "I don't want WS anymore regardless what WS would do, I am ready to start over but not with you." It is the last straw and you are fine with Dv as an outcome.
Since you understand MB, you should decide if you are at that point or not. Of course WH won't want M, he wants to prolong A. Decide if you go to plan A or plan B ... there is no in between. Divorce Busting is an implementation of plan A, tough love is an implementation of plan B. If you are in plan A then do the best B-Day that you son wanted and invite his dad to see what he would miss if he Dv you. If you are in plan B then still do the best B-day that your son wanted and told your H not to come. As for OW being a hostess ... you should wish that she will try to compete with you !, let your son and others to see OW up close and personal <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> . I start learning how Venusian lady mind works, scary, I could only blame it to Orchid. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . Do the best B-day for your son and this probably your last time to make him happy B-day.

-rh-

AM,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lor, I'm already doing what you suggest, pretty much. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's why I said you have good instincts <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> . Seriously, I do see you going through a very well-thought out process, taking into account your H's weaknesses, your strengths.

I'm not sure that I disagree with Redhat a little in that there is nothing in between Plan A & B, but Plan A can have all sorts of graduated degrees from unconditional love to "as if divorced". I see situations where aspects of Love must be tough works in Plan A.

I believe in MB, it works, I use it. However I also think when the WS is not soon remorseful, when separation(s) occur, that Plan A works with natural consequences, like house visiting with prior notice.

And, I think Plan B absolute no contact is exceptionally difficult with children, when you both do attend the programs, games, concerts, events or like my situation, there wasn't a likely go-between for visitation. Even the MB famous K had some contact for the children during his Plan B.

OW is somewhere in her forties. Younger than me, but not by much.

His mother died in 1999. H is not close to anyone -- this is his problem.

What she gives him, and I couldn't, or didn't, was unqualified adoration. She has always draped herself over him. Despite his alpha male status, apparently he feels like crap inside, all the time. I think that's why he can't see she's weird and nuts -- because it would devalue her praise.

I think it's for this reason he has trouble turning away female attention of any kind. He craves it. That's how he dropped into this bucket. He got enmeshed and can't get out. I warned him about this for five years.

For that reason, female attention from me in Plan A still works. He is affectionate/flirtatious, even -- weird as that might be under the circumstances, and sick as it might be. Outside the theater last night, he was alone and anxious and I would swear he was looking for me... My instinct tells me to keep Plan A, from a safe distance. Keep him wanting more -- like looking for me outside the theater. I've even thought to call OW's house LOTS with messages for him and drive her nuts, though that might be unwise.

With this particular man, this is the only thing I can think of that might get through. But he might serve me divorce papers anyway -- while flirting with me. OW needs a green card.

He would never admit he needs admiration, but he craves it. And as his behavior to me became worse and worse, I stopped giving it. I think that was an error. (On the other hand, Wife #2 didn't give it, either... Wife #1 began LB in a big way at separation time... I want to be smarter than all this.)

H is an incredible distancer; difficulty being close to anyone. No close friends, not close to family. Anything that offers distance he accepts -- hence, I think, the futility of Plan B. He wants to be wanted, but he can't give anything back. Apparently, he hurts on the inside.

So, Redhat et al., I want to know if you think my instincts are totally off on this one. They may be. But the only thing that seems to get through to him is adoration and stroking.

Lor, I want him to miss his home. He helped create it, and I can't help but believe some part of him doesn't miss it. The dog misses him! He's severely compartmentalized, however. It's always hard to know what he's feeling.

I have trouble with the idea of cutting the cord forever. I still feel he's my husband, however messed up.

<small>[ March 26, 2003, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: A.M.Martin ]</small>

You are no far off. You know his A will end, not now and not yet ... even might be after Dv and OW dump him after getting her green card.

About no plan in between A&B, the dangerous is sending the mix signals to SO. They are soo deep in the fog that we need to send a very clear and simple message.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by A.M.Martin:
<strong>I still feel he's my husband, however messed up.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are you up to the challenge to fight for your M ? plan A ?. Only you could decide. If you decide to continue plan A ... call him and ask his help to organize the B-day party for S, thank him and stroke his ego. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> . You know when to go to plan B.

-rh-

Re mixed messages: How about send an email to the effect of, "I continue to love and care for you, and hope that you will return to our marriage. I am not going to discuss this with you until you end your affair, and I don't know how long this door will remain open. Until then, I must assume your decision is final, and act accordingly. The dog misses you, the kids miss you, and I miss you, but I will not bring up this subject again until you do. Please don't forget that you are loved." Then I could continue to be affectionate, pleasant, when he phones, etc. -- but not give him a whole bunch of space in my life. Lots of stroking.

How is that for a compromise?

Re birthday party: my stepson must be 20 or 21. It's never been a birthday party kind of family. Wife #1 kept inviting my H back to her house, did things together. He just used her like a doormat. I don't want to repeat that error.

Or better to low-ball it for a few weeks.

there a way to soften Plan B so he doesn't use it as an excuse that I've cut him off?
No. When you go to Plan B, your spouse will (almost always) get pissed off and blame you for everything. When you ar etired of it all you go to Plan B. You aren't worried about any "excuses" he has.

How is that for a compromise?
Terrible. You are not going to talk about reconciliation/marriage until he ends the affair, but you WILL continue, "to be affectionate, pleasant, when he phones, etc. ... Lots of stroking."

That is an EXTREMELY mixed message.

This one would not get "pissed off" with Plan B.
I don't think it would make much of a dent.

To deal with financial, etc., stuff, we probably could use a middleman.