so ive not posted in a while..

ive been patting myself on the back for doing so much better personally, making better choices doing things better etc.

i have been doing some other work that is more pesonal, or introspective so to speak.

the premise is that people treat you the way you teach them to. and I find that to fit really well for me.

as those of you who might remember the cycle in my marriage is or was, I act weak and she takes control, she takes control i see that as a need or desire of hers and in order to please her i act weaker. and so on....

so as i do this work i come to a place where i have to list my emotional needs, much more detailed process than the harley ENQ but similar none the less. the next step is to identify which ones are not being met, then to own what behavior i present that solicits this lack of responce.

most of these turned out to be my not doing anything to include asking for what i need because of fear of not being loved or abandoned.

and then the next part is what i am stumped on.

i am supposed to declare what i could do or what i could change within myself that would solicit the responce i want from my wife.

I honestly answered "I dont know" to every one.

so im open to feedback,

if i my need is SF and its not met, what is the appropriate responce?

if my need is financial support, what is the appropriat responce?

if my need is domestic support, what is the appropriate responce?

i mean really, what change in me would solicit a different responce in my relationship?

clearly doing what i think she wants isnt helping, 3 years of avoiding LB's and meeting her needs without expectation arnt changing things.

i feel completely powerless, I want control over our finances, or at least to have money of my own to do what i want with, and i dont have a clue how to get it without LB's and her being angry.

I want more and better sex, Intimacy, and affection. and i dont have a clue how to get it without actually saying that i want more and better X,Y, and Z. that would be a definate LB

I want a different kind of life!! less hurried less stress more loving and nurturing..

chazbutler,

I don't know your story but one striking point in here is What are her ENs and how good you fillin hers ? from her point of view ?.

Don't take it personally my answers ...

cb: if i my need is SF and its not met, what is the appropriate responce?
RH: right hand or left hand ? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

cb: if my need is financial support, what is the appropriat responce?
RH: get better job by training or kiss [censored] to get promoted. Fill in that saving account that you open under your own name.

cb: if my need is domestic support, what is the appropriate responce?
RH: Clean the house yourself, learn how to
cook ... etc.

Now let get serious <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>i mean really, what change in me would solicit a different responce in my relationship?
clearly doing what i think she wants isnt helping, 3 years of avoiding LB's and meeting her needs without expectation arnt changing things.

i feel completely powerless, I want control over our finances, or at least to have money of my own to do what i want with, and i dont have a clue how to get it without LB's and her being angry.

I want more and better sex, Intimacy, and affection. and i dont have a clue how to get it without actually saying that i want more and better X,Y, and Z. that would be a definate LB

I want a different kind of life!! less hurried less stress more loving and nurturing..</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fillin ENs is only one of the 4 rules of recovery, it is "care" part. Now you might miss the others; the concept of LB !, LB doesn't mean you avoid making her mad at all cost. You are growing a monster cake eater. Talk to her !. As long as you are not doing it in angry out burst, disrepectfull judgement, unreasonable demand and so on .... you are not LB'ed !. The out most big piece that you miss here is Radical Honesty !. MB works but you have to do all of 4 rules of recovery and do it right.

IMVHO, go and read "Language of Love". It is powerfull for convey a dificult message and open up heart to heart. Find appropriate word picture to construct and describe your feeling to her.

I am Dv but living happier ... I fillin my own needs. For now I rather live alone happy than live miserable with someone. Life is too short.

-rh-

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by chazbutler:
<strong>i am supposed to declare what i could do or what i could change within myself that would solicit the responce i want from my wife.

I honestly answered "I dont know" to every one.

so im open to feedback,

if i my need is SF and its not met, what is the appropriate responce?

if my need is financial support, what is the appropriat responce?

if my need is domestic support, what is the appropriate responce?

i mean really, what change in me would solicit a different responce in my relationship?

clearly doing what i think she wants isnt helping, 3 years of avoiding LB's and meeting her needs without expectation arnt changing things.

i feel completely powerless, I want control over our finances, or at least to have money of my own to do what i want with, and i dont have a clue how to get it without LB's and her being angry.

I want more and better sex, Intimacy, and affection. and i dont have a clue how to get it without actually saying that i want more and better X,Y, and Z. that would be a definate LB

I want a different kind of life!! less hurried less stress more loving and nurturing..</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Chaz, there are two problems with this approach.

1. The needs have to be met by someone else
2. That someone else lacks the motivation to leave her royal power position in your relationship to meet your serf-persona needs.

Literally, your relationship has revolved around her behavior, and her demands, and her negligence, and lack of caring and protection of you, your feelings, and your love for her.

Yes, she's a wonderful woman. You've said so many times. But she loses nothing if she doesn't take care of her relationship with you because you're willing to endure her behavior, demands, negligence and lack of caring, protection, etc.

There's nothing on the line - and you haven't been willing to risk putting anything on the line to value yourself.

I know how seriously you take your vows; that your promise has significant meaning to you. I admire that about you. At the same time, it's not winning you any points with her. You're as steady as the kitchen clock - she doesn't have to pay attention that the batteries are low until it stops working. She throws in a new battery (throws you a bone) and goes back to ignoring your needs all over again.

But you're not a thing. You can't very well be true to your vows and go out and meet your own needs, so that option is out.

I can tell you that things-are-a-shifting in the KaseyKayla house if that's any consolation to you. I have had a long-time unmet need for Financial Support. It's been 7 years since he brought in sufficient income to help with the bills. And I met that need on my own, for several years - 2000 to 2002 - without complaint. But then I lost my job - and I didn't get my emotional bearings for a while after that. So he's now applying pressure to himself to meet the responsibilities I have carried almost exclusively since 1996. I'm not having to pressure him. He's not quite to the point of earning an income yet, but if he continues, he will get there.

It takes a crisis. Crises are risky. Where you live and what you endure, is at least safe. Not necessarily comfortable, but definitely more comfortable than the unknown of standing up for yourself.

Chaz, I feel for you. It's a tough situation that you're in. But everything that is creating your vortex of unhappiness is out of your locus of control - you have no power to execute change, without violating your core-values, so you remain stuck. What an inner conflict you must go through every day.

A book that changed the way I look at risk, and my life circumstances may or may not be helpful to you - if it does help, let me know. I'd love to know that it helped someone else significantly like it has me. "Excuse Me: Your Life Is Waiting" by Lynn Grabhorn. It helped me focus on what I had the power to change.

Redhat & KA thanks so much for the replys

Redhat, i think that indirectly you have struck on the point exactly!

as for your question about meeting her needs, from her point of view? thats what I do, that what i do well! i abandon myself in order to do that for others, its how ive survived life.

what you clued into was honesty, i am not being honest with even myself about what my needs and wants are, i shove them aside and persue meeting hers with vigor out of fear that she will not accept or love me otherwise.

so i do to myself exactly what i fear from her, i abandon myself. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Kayla,

Inner vortex is right, like a black hole in my gut sucking the life right out of me!

there is an exercise that we use in the mens group i am part of called "Whats at Risk?"

its meant to get you to look at what your doing how its working vs what you want and why you dont go for it.

usually its a paradox, as it is with me, i am miserable with what i am doing yet fear keeps me from asking for what i need and want even though the outcome might be better, or even the same.

the point is not doing anything means no change, and that is where i am.

so how to change and not cause harm? maybe thats the same as asking how to change and not risk anything. which is of course the point of the exercise you cant not risk.

i have to risk

Excuse me while I speak very directly about your wife.

The risk you take is losing control of the outcome. Kind of like an alcoholic, your wife is drunk and oblivious, being satiated as to her needs, but being clueless that reciprocity is in order. She, like a drunk, doesn't believe in reciprocity. Like the royals' attitude toward the serfs - they exist to serve the royals, and the royals owe the serfs nothing.

Like a spouse in recovery, you will have to step into the place where you no longer compensate for the drunk's behavior. The risk that every spouse of an addict takes, is that everything will unravel, and they will get the blame. Their children will grow up in broken homes. and so on.

But the risk of not taking action hardly ever gets a 2nd glance by the spouse of an addict. The risk that the children learn unhealthy roles in their childhood as to marriage, and other relationships. Do you prefer them to identify with your wife's relationship behavior "I don't give a dam& about anyone else's needs. I know you deserve better, but I'm not to be bothered giving it to you." or your behavior - long suffering, neglected, hurt and angry.

What else will they learn? Only you know for sure. But one thing they will not learn with the status quo is how to deal with change. How to adapt in crisis. How to live with principle, and act on core values, while valuing oneself too.

That is the risk of doing nothing - living with the status quo. I encourage you to continue with your mens group. Sounds like you are on the right track.

So to answer your question of how to risk and not cause harm - harm cannot be prevented; it already exists. And change cannot take place without risk. When we try to control every outcome, we take the biggest risk of all. I'll leave you to figure out what that is and to determine if you are willing to risk THAT in order to achieve an absense of harm (an illusion) or change without risk (also an illusion).

[quote]i have to risk. [/i]

Yes, chaz, you do.

God calls us to be transparent. In MB terms, that is radically honest .

It is in being transparent and my H being transparent w/ me that is causing the MOST changes in our marriage.

Did I recomment the Cloud & Townsend books to you? "Hiding From Love," "Safe People," "Changes That Heal," and "Boundaries"

I know MB people have read SOOOOO many books, but these get at the HEART of YOU. Who you are. Why you are. and BEST OF ALL, How to change.

Cali

chazbutler:

One basic concept that many MBer overlook it. Giver/Taker ... You have to balance your Giver/Taker.

-rh-

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by redhat:
<strong>chazbutler:

One basic concept that many MBer overlook it. Giver/Taker ... You have to balance your Giver/Taker.

-rh-</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">oops,

here is a good example of how my glasses distort the world for me.

I had not read that for a long time, and in my mind i had distorted the concept to read thou shall not have a taker!

because that is how i defend myself <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

by not asking or expecting anything i dont put demands on others and make it really easy to have me around. i feels like acceptance to me. but i know thats probably not what it is.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by chazbutler:
<strong>I had not read that for a long time, and in my mind i had distorted the concept to read thou shall not have a taker!
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We did plan A for long time and get used to surpressed our Taker !. Now you are in the journey of recovery you should balance them and open the communication channel for it.

-rh-

There's an good book out right now called "No More Mr. Nice Guy" that addresses much of what you're saying. Written by a shrink, and former Mr. Nice Guy, his basic premise is that over the last 50 years or so men have become much more eager to be all things to all people as a means to gain acceptance (especially from women), and, therefore, love and happiness. He teaches that being a "nice guy," which on its face is a good thing, is destroying our ability to ensure our own needs are met. He traces the roots of this phenomenon back the post-war era when divorce rates began to climb and when more women began to enter the work force beyond typical pink collar jobs. Other factors apply, but these two are significant because more men were being raised by single women, who taught their little boys to be the man they wished they'd married instead of the one they did. Also, as more women ascended to manager-level postions ... that became a factor, too. Gaining the approval of women was everywhere and seen as necessary. Mind you, these events aren't bad, he states. What's bad is how our gender adaptated.

The author doesn't suggest we become jerks; just how to learn to accept ourselves warts and all first, then be unapologetic when we ask others to also accept us warts and all.

Quick and easy read. I recommend it.

Chaz.... defending yourself from becoming someone you do not love or respect .... is necessary work for maintaining a successful relationship, and indeed, having a satisfying life.

Go to your core. Discover yourself. You are a fine and lovely man.

Pepper

<small>[ March 29, 2003, 09:57 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Just want to add that No more Mr. Nice Guy is my motto from now on. In fact, I think I will have to change my posting name. See, WS thought for all these years I WAS stupid and evidently thinks I still am or I am just a lovesick dolt. What I am now is feeling sad that he could be that low, not just to cheat on me, but to have a secind life for several years and hiding money and most of all, HIMSELF, from me. Manipulating me and spreading info about me to others. Well maybe everyone would like to know some of his dark secrets, too. Two can play. AND OBVIOUSLY HONEY you never told the faction from Iraq that when I get finally mad enough, not only do I get stubborn, but I usually hit back. I FIGHT HARDER. So you blew it because if youd have been honest when I asked you about this and offered you the house so the children wouldn't have to leave, you coulda had it all. But now the secret is out about what a terrible person you really were. NOW YOU BOTH WILL PAY.

Chaz is stupid your twin evil or someone else trying to hijack your thread ? I am slow here.

stupid is a giver snapped. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

-rh-

Stupid,
Threats are not allowed in the MB forums.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Chaz wrote:
by not asking or expecting anything i dont put demands on others and make it really easy to have me around. i feels like acceptance to me. but i know thats probably not what it is. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Chaz,

This made me so sad. You sound like you sit in the shadows, waiting for your turn and it never comes.

Why do you think people, your wife, wouldn't accept you if you asked for what you want or need?

Jo

Stupid is as stupid does...

dont have any clue about that one, she sounds really pissed though!

Resilient,

why? thats a huge question, one that I am still trying to resolve.

id have to say it has alot to do with what I learned as a child. father abandoned us, Step father molested us, mother resented us ignored us, defended molester over her kids, I had to be what others wanted in order to have safety, love, nurishment. its what i learned to defend myself and survive.

seems I am having difficulty un-learning it, not being a victim, know what is acceptable and appropriate in this area, its hard because i dont have any data, no personal experiance. its as if I were dropped on to the earth from a different plant where things were just different.

someone reccommended the book no more MR. Nice Guy, I checked out the book and there is a website with a forum even, there is also a self evaluation quiz, i took it and then had my wife take it as if she were me, she scored me a 42 out of 50 i scored myself at 46. I will probably get the book, i am working thru a different book right now so it will wait a bit.

its not like i dont know that i need to change this, i just have no clue what it good vs bad here.

sigh