I have read many posts and replys on the MB board on the benefits of exposing affairs and yet I also read that sometimes you should "put the affair on the backburner and work on the marriage". I have also read to never involve the WS parents, as this is a serious LBer. How hard should you press to expose the affair, like hiring a PI (which is about the only thing I have not done)? And couldn't telling my MIL be used as a last resort? I am sure my WW had a PA and am not sure if it is over. She still will not admit to anything, although her actions have pretty much spoken loud and clear. From her saying she's not "in love" with me anymore to every other cheating spouse sign you can find, she has done it. She knows I am checking up on her, but I can not seem to stop, no matter how hard I try. I tell her as long as she is at home and not loving me, then I will be suspicious. She says as long as I am hounding her, she will not show any interest in reconciling. We both agree that divorce is out of the question, based on the kids, but she will not make any attempt try to make it work. I am willing to get counceling, but she is not. I tried the EN thing and got no where. So I guess we are at a stale mate. She is such in a fog, a totally different person than I knew 6 months ago, and many of her statements are so off the wall. My rollercoaster of emotions has been running out of control for 5 months.

gambler - your case sounds text book at this early stage - both her behavior and yours.

Let's set her behavior aside for the moment.

You may still be in the emotional phase, yet to fully transition to the intellectual phase - but you sound like you're on your way there.

By these "phases", I mean the very understandable and instinctive initial responses by BSs. The first knee jerk reaction is almost entirely emotionally based - anger, argue, accuse - because you've been threatened and attacked. These judgemental type interactions have the compounding effect of pushing the WS further away and providing them with justification for their decisions. The BS becomes public enemy number one to the WS.

What's really needed requires the ability to use one's intellect rather than relying on what our instincts and emotions tell us to do. In the face of an affair, intellect is key. Emotion and instinct will give you misguided advice at nearly every turn.

The first step in applying intellect is to rationally and self critically look at the underpinings of the affair. What could have created the poor marital environment that "enabled" an affair to commence? What part did I (the BS) play in this? This is the first step in Plan A.

So, gambler, I suggest you switch fully to intellectual mode and stop trying to "prove" the affair. It will show itself in time. The intellectual approach is to realize you cannot end the affair even if you CAN prove it exists. The only thing you can do is address your contributions, no matter how big or small, to the pre-existing problems in the marriage. This does not mean that you must tolerate the affair. You can take a "no tolerance" stance by clearly expressing the suspicions you have and articulating your disapproval of her behavior within your marriage - without the three A's - anger, argue, accuse.

"How," you might ask, "do I not 'accuse' while I'm stating my disapproval of a denied affair?"

By not saying so disrespectively. Use reasoned, calm intellect rather than emotion. Use "I believe" or "I feel" rather than "Your're doing this and it's wrong."

Regarding "outing" the affair, please read the links embedded in my guidelines post, linked in my sig line. The affair must be exposed to shatter the allure of secrecy. Period. Who it's exposed to and when is dicey. Read the links and apply the thoughts to your situation. Telling you MIL is NOT a last resort necessarily, depending on the family dynamics.

If she won't participate in counseling - typical of WSs in romantic affairs - do it yourself. I strongly recommend one of the MB counselors, but a local may do fine. If not an MB counselor, make sure the local is pro-marriage and understands that affairs can be recovered from. Too many "counselors" will merely attempt to prepare you for divorce.

<small>[ March 30, 2003, 08:11 AM: Message edited by: worthatry ]</small>

Thanks. I really am trying the calm approach, lots of deep breaths etc. She immediately gets defensive and makes me look like the bad guy because I am checking on her. I tell her that her behavior has earned that reaction from me.
I guess, since she won't tell me what I did wrong, I will have to figure it out myself (that is tough). I feel trapped, like she is in control, because even if I hire a PI and prove it, I feel that would only make it worse. So if I don't snoop, then I will not know, and she gets what she wants and get the shaft. What a painful way to live.

I suggest you forget about proving it. There is nothing you can do to end it other than fixing your problems and attracting her back - giving HER a reason to end it.

To this day, my XW denies she ever had an affair although I caught her kissing OM and she married him a few months following our respective divorces.

WAT

Now that I think of it, the only real problem she ever had with me was she said I was too possessive. I never stopped her from doing anything, but she claims I ask her too many questions, like where she is going, what time to expect her back, etc. I never saw this as a problem, as they were all normal questions that couples ask each other. She says she does not need my permission to go anywhere, and that she can come and go as she pleases.

Gambler your obsession in trying to get the goods on her is a very natural response, but ask yourself the following:

1. Will it make her feel guilty and end her A?

2. And does knowing the details of her A really help me to deal with it in a positive and constructive fashion?

I think you know the answers to these questions.

Your statement "We both agree that divorce is out of the question, based on the kids" worries me because if she doesn't feel that her A is a threat to her M, what incentive does she have to end it? None because she is going to continue to enjoy the benefits of having a lover on the side and a H that supports her standard of living. You on the other hand will be miserable, bitter, and reach the point where you could eventually end up saying to yourself "screw this marriage" I'm going to do the same thing she's doing. So I advise you to rethink your policy of 'divorce is out of the question' and consider what I said.

Gambler -

My situation in a nut shell - I am the FWW. I started having A soon after we were M. H tried EVERYTHING he could (while I was in the "fog" to make things right). Finally December 24th he sent a mass e-mail to ALL our friends and family members (who he had e-mail addresses for) and exposed my A. Is was soon after that - that the PA stopped and it was a few weeks later that the EA ended. To this day, I don't like that my H told my family and friends about the A (because it humiliated me) - but in looking back - I realize he did what he had to do, to put a stop to the A.

My H posts here also. I know now, that he did some really good snooping into my personal life. I have come to realize through MC and IC that in a relationship - THERE IS NO PERSONAL LIFE! CoffeeMan will attest to my statement - Right now, I am doing everything I can do to get my H back. I have given him all my e-mail accounts and PW's for them - also changed my # to have NC with OM. There will be "bumps" in your recovery no doubt - but you cannot push her until she is ready! I speak from experience - <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Take care -

Coffeman - What do you mean "rethink that divorce is out of the question"? Should I let her know that is still an option for me? That is not what I want, but I do not want what I currently have either. I do not need any more proof, and she is not willing to admit it or to try to prove me wrong. I guess I can wait and see what happens, and continue with Plan A, and try to win her back. I really do not know that exposing the goods will make her end the A and come back to me, but in a way I am hopeful.

ready2try - Telling all of our current situation seems a bit radical, but then again, what do I have to lose? This approach would seem like a major LBer, but maybe that is what she needs. She is not the type to come begging for forgiveness, especially not in her current state of mind.

It's a risky tactic, informing all friends and relatives of the A, because it may or may not help end the A. In some cases it has even helped the WS leave the BS for good and move in the OP.

Keep in mind that NOT ALL A's are the same. Some A's (like imready2try's) are non-exit A's in which the WS still has plenty of love for the BS and no desire to hurt other loved ones with the truth of the A. And exit A's in which the WS no longer has any love for the BS and doesn't give a hoot about what their loved ones say if they found out about the A.

So think this out thoroughly before you decide one way or the other with the idea of revealing her A to others.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Coffeman - What do you mean "rethink that divorce is out of the question"? Should I let her know that is still an option for me?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YES because if divorce isn't an option for you, then the possibility (not probability) that you would end up doing the same thing she did, would increase dramatically and you definetely would prefer to divorce her first than to let that happen.

Keep in mind that you would not be telling her this to manipulate her, but to warn her so that she has an opportunity to remedy the situation before one of those two scenarios becomes a reality.

<small>[ March 30, 2003, 01:30 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

CoffeeMan -

Once again, your words are wise! Gambler - Listen to them! There is truth in what he says... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

This sort of sounds like using divorce as a threat to make her see reality. I have told her that if it comes down to it, we will get a divorce, but she says she can't do that to our 10 yr old son. I suppose I will have to be the doormat for awhile and hope for the best. I have also told her that I will not tolerate her continuing this A or any other. She is just so unwilling to take any steps to reconcile.

Do not threaten divorce unless you want one or are ready to accept one.

Did you read about outing the affair like I recommended?

WAT

Yes I did read about outing the affair. Sounds a little risky, since I do not know for sure who the OM is, or if it is still going on. I am trying not to snoop too much. My last resort is to hire PI. Here is the facts: She has displayed every cheating spouse sign (not in love with me, no sex, kiss or anything, and many more), a semen check (kit) of her undergarments was positive, and a phone call with another man where she says she'll be over later and for him to park his truck so she could hide her vehicle behind it. Is this enough to expose it, or will everyone think I'm crazy.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This sort of sounds like using divorce as a threat to make her see reality.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No it is not, because you would be simply and calmly stating to her, a possible consequence of her refusal to end her A and help rebuild the M. If you were to yell at her "You better end your A and committ to MC or I'll divorce you right now" then yes you would be threatening her. See the difference?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have told her that if it comes down to it, we will get a divorce, but she says she can't do that to our 10 yr old son.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Great, you showed her the most likely consequence of her continuing infidelity. Since her mind is consumed with her A, and you haven't left her, she doesn't beleive that you will divorce her.

As far as her statement that she can't do that to your 10 yr old son, she is obviously delusional because that IS precisely what she is doing with her continued infidelity.

But my point in all of this is your need to be not only honest with her but honest with yourself, and saying that divorce for both of you is out of the question because of the kids, is not IMNSHO being honest.

I could relate to your situation very well because my H was in a very romantic EA/PA with a single coworker and refused to end it despite my being very opposed to divorce. I finally got so fed up I asked him to 'move out to think." Of course he claimed I was throwing him out of our house so he used it as an opportunity to see OW more often. But I got to the point where being separated was necessary to maintain any shred of emotional well-being for myself and our 3 kids. I did tell H's brother about his A and people at our church knew but I dont regret that as I needed some emotional support from them and I believe in consequences to what a person does. Have you read the book "Divorce Remedy" by Michele Weiner-Davis? she has some excellent strategies to use in this type of situation. As hard as it is dont be too possessive or pressure your W too much right now as this is only going to make things WORSE not better. You need to get some strategy plans in place and wait things out. My H was full speed ahead as afar as leaving me for OW and pursuing a D-he even filed on me but then he finally snapped out of it and realized what the heck he was doing. Take care- lifeismessy

Thanks for the info on the book. I will try to get it and read. My WW is just in such a fog, that I have decided not to discuss issues with her until she is ready. I told her I would wait, but not 4-ever. What is the likelyhood that she will ever admit anything to me? I feel like she just wants all of this to just blow over and everything will be the same. How should I react if she suddenly just reverts back to her old self?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How should I react if she suddenly just reverts back to her old self?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What do you want?

I want to have a long and happy marriage, with a spouse that loves me as I love her. My WW says she does not know if tht is possible. Unfortunately, she is in control right now, and unless I do something drastic, it appears that it will stay that way.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Unfortunately, she is in control right now, and unless I do something drastic, it appears that it will stay that way.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Control of what? You? Hardly. You have the power to drop her like a hot potato IF that is what you truly wish. What she has control of is her own choices (just like you) and presently, some of them (i.e. her A) are poison to the M. If you do something drastic, you better be prepared to live with the consequences of it. Are you?