My children are my biggest concern of course.
How do I draw the line without filing for D?
I don't want to overreact and risk LB, however I don't want to underreact and not be protecting and standing up for my kids.
WH had 4 yr.old D for the first time this weekend and told me when he brought her back that he dropped her off at the OW's apt. to watch a movie with her kids while he grocery shopped! This woman is a stranger to my D!
WH thinks no harm was done to our D, he would never put her in a dangerous situation, just play time for her, no relationship displayed or discussed.
I of course was very upset, especially since he knew where I stood on the subject! He "claims" he misunderstood my last position on the subject! And that he won't do it again if that's what I want. Seemed to be genuinely concerned that I was that emotional about it, but he could be playing head games, hard to tell with Fog. Funny that he couldn't wait to expose her on the first visit though.
He says that if our 12 yr.old was with him, he wouldn't have done it. So basically he is taking advantage of her age and innocence and thinks there is no risk involved!
ANy thoughts on setting future visit boundaries(really there's no way to control what he does when he has them)and how to set boundaries along with Plan A.
It seems hard to do both.
I feel like I can't even trust my own judgement lately. There was a time when I knew what was acceptable and what was definately over the line and what I would do and say about it.
Now that I am in Plan A, I am always second guessing myself, concerned about LB's, overreacting to things, etc.
Advice?

If you don't want your D around the OW that is your right and I agree totally! My WW brought that up to me several times and I flatly refused each time. The first time she mentioned it I BLEW UP!. Then I learned how to approach it calmly. I printed the article on this site about Ifidelity and the Lessons Children Learn and when she brought it up again I calmly and considerately had her read the article and told her that these are the things I was afraid to teach our kids by allowing her to bring them around OM. She never brough it up again!.

As for your youngest, I have a three year old and she thought it would be okay just to bring her over to the OM house since she wouldn't know what was going on either. I told her that it still sent the wrong message to the older ones. I could invite some people over to my house, set my little one in the middle of our circle and pass a crack pipe around in front of her. She wouldn't know what was going on there either. Does that mean it's okay?

Learnin,

It is a common theme that boundaries get tied up with LB's....and though boundary setting can be "perceived" by the WS as thus...it doesn't make them so....

Done without malice, emotion, and negotiating...boundaries are necessary and reasonable....

Can he visit only at your house..
can you and the kids be busy with activities that limits his ability to take them...but leaves much room for him to come along with them and you...

You know the kids aren't really available to go with you then...we are already going here...but since YOU want to see them and SHOULD see them...please know you are welcome...if that doesn't work...we will be home around ____ time..and you can come over then....
bat eyes....smile...

Also investigate legal seperations that limit exposure with children to "others"..but make it clear you felt you needed to protect their well since he "misunderstood" your position...it just really helps it clearly define it for him...bat eyes...shrug shoulders...smile (note legal seperations are not my forte...so I may be wrong...but I have read quite a few stories of others that have done so...)

Setting limits without presenting them in an attack mode leaves you free from criticism...and can be used to show consequances of actions...

"imagine dear if I was off with another man...would you really want me to bring my children around him??? really ????"...

other option is let twelve year be with him as well...not as a pawn...I mewan if you believe that he really would not expose her to the OP...then arrange the times when both are together....

Limits and boundaries can also include you using him to come home a care take the kids so YOU get out...or even go away...don't give a lot of details...but they are his kids....and do for yourself....

ARK

starman and ark^^ both have some excellent suggestions for you.

Personally, I like the thought of either your H taking BOTH kids for visitations (why shouldn't you get a break too, right?), or inviting him to do things with you and the kids. The latter would be a better opportunity to dazzle him with your plan A! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

As much as what you want, is to insert some knowledge regarding ETHICS into your H's foggy head... it's a toughie, and hardly likely. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> You've already read on here I'm sure, that educating your WS is NOT worth the time and effort, b/c they just don't "get it" anyways. That is all the more reason why it's imperative to set those boundaries.

One way to setting boundaries (especially when kids are involved) is by using the "tough love" approach. Tough love in this situation would mean that you treat visitations exactly as they would be if you and your H were to get a D. If he doesn't like it, then really, that's HIS problem, b/c all you're doing is giving him what he asked for, right? (if he wants to be with OW, then obviously he can't be with you too).

When my H and I were separated when I was in plan A (in 2001), I was very fortunate in that all the boys were VERY young (the oldest only turned 2 yrs old just as we reconciled), so I was able to insist the visitations be in MY home (as according to standard visitation guidelines that the courts follow, that is most recommended for the children's sakes, at those ages - the twins were infants).

Now that H and I are again separated, and en route to a D (I filed), things have changed drastically, for the worse. He was arrested for child porn possession, and part of his bail conditions include not having ANY contact with children under 14 without supervision, and no being in places where kids are known to frequent, such as parks, community centres, etc. This is obviously affecting his visitation with his kids... and although SUPERVISED visitation is the only choice... there's nowhere he could take them anyways! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> It's a huge issue that's being figured out by the court. And the way things are going, visitations won't start until sometime in May. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> (at this point, the kids haven't seen their dad in 4 months!).

I think that a good rule in plan A (as always) is to follow your gut instincts. They are there for a reason, a God given gift to be used for the well being of you, and in this case, your children. Your kids come first, and that means you need to do whatever you feel is necessary to ensure their safety and well being... and being around OW and her kids is NOT one of those things.

Karen

Thanks all for your replys.
Topie, I've been following your threads and really feel for your situation. You should be real proud of yourself though, you've handled it all with dignity. I wish you and your children a happy and healthy future.
Starman & Ark, it's hard to hold back and limit visitations, I've been able to prevent it for 2 mos. or more, but now he is insisting, especially since I wouldn't go along with his $60 do-it-yourself D idea last week!
He lives 2.5 hrs away, and claims he doesn't like to be around me, so visiting here is sporadic and prevents me from Plan A. I'm limited to phone stuff mostly.
Although on his last visit here(to insist on $60 D), we actually played cards with the boys for an hour or so and ate dinner together before the big blowout he had(I stayed calm and asked him to leave, that's when he insisted on kids visiting him)
He wants them for April vacation next, but that will be hard for 16yr-old, starting his job, and 12-yr old starting baseball & track season. Too Bad!! But that leaves 4 yr. old and no big brothers to look out for her. 16 yr old has stepped into a very protective role. I feel bad that he feels that necessary, but he's very angry with his Dad. I had to calm him down before this 1st visit, he was saying he wasn't going to allow Dad to take them!
I did get some info today about "KIDS FIRST" programs, that help parents deal effectively with separation and divorce issues. I will give it to WH and suggest we attend. They suggest we attend separate classes however, which is too bad because have several questions I'd like to ask in front of him. But I suppose that's not as important as getting valuable tools to help the kids.
Thanks again for the support, it helps to know when I'm on the right track and when I'm not. I just need to trust my gut instinct more than I do these days!!

learning ~

Children's protections are outside of plan A.

Here's what I did:

I couldn't trust H not to play family with our kids and OW.

So H couldn't see kids without my supervision in our home.

Since there was no divorce filed, he had no rights, I was able to control it. He could have filed for divorce and gotten temporary orders for visitation....but that would have cost money and time that the OW wanted <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

When I did file for divorce, I got him to sign a letter which went to my attorney that stated he would not expose our children to her. I made sure my H understood that I was going to haul her before the court for a psych evaluation if he wanted to involve her in their lives.

I then started insisting that he take full responsiblity every other weekend. I did leave him the option of our home - which he did use after one weekend with the kids in his tiny apartment.

Yes, there were LBs galore in this scenario, and he threatened to take me to court to allow him visitation with whom ever he wanted.

Fortunately, WSes seem to be pretty lazy and unmotivate din that area...and i wasn't. I made sure I was always protected via the law. I read everything, reasearched and interviewed lawyers. then I hired one.

Doesn't hurt for tht WS to know you mean business.

Since your's wants a cheap doit yourself, i doubt you'll have any serious legal challengels if you set down rules that ensure your kids safty.