I had a couple of brief phone call interactions with my H while I was away on vacation, and they went as usual. For a man who was desperate to talk to and see me last week, he was right back at reminding me that I'd "been with 3 men" and being drunk, hurtful, short-tempered and unwilling to listen to me, let alone try getting together to spend some quality time together.

So I even gave him one final chance to make it clear to me that he's changed his mind and really wants to work on our relationship and saving our marriage. He did not indicate that at all. So enough procrastinating and prolongling of the drama already!

Here's my (hopefully) final draft of my Plan B letter. I hope to drop it off at his place tonight or tomorrow.

Is it clear and to the point? Is it too repetitive? I took out all hints at my assuming how he feels or thinks, and stuck to what I think and feel.

Here it 'tis: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">April 5th, 2003

Dear J,

I am really saddened by how our interactions have been going lately. I deeply regret that our relationship and marriage have gotten to this point. Right now it just does not feel like anything is going in a positive direction between us. I have therefore decided that I need some space to reflect on things.

As I have told you before, over and over again, since day one of our separation, I don't want a divorce. I have told you many times how much I love you and that I want to remain married to you, and do whatever work is necessary to work together to improve our relationship and our marriage. However, things have been in limbo for quite some time now, with what feels to me like little or no progress towards recovering our marriage. When you reminded again recently that you don’t think you will ever be able to forgive me, I had the feeling that maybe you are absolutely right. That’s when I came to the unfortunate realization that it seems obvious that our road is therefore leading to divorce.

So J, unless you decide that you do think you can forgive me someday, and that you want to work together to save our marriage, I think that it is best if we end all contact with one another, until such time as one of us files for divorce. To prolong contact with each other at this point without a genuine desire on both our parts to work to save this marriage seems unproductive, and also causes much more pain, stress and heartache than I can handle.

I fear that if we continue to interact in the manner that we have been recently that the amount of anger and resentment we both feel towards one another will only increase, and that it will tarnish all of the wonderful happy memories I have of our 12 years together. I wouldn’t trade those memories for the world.

I have come to realize some things lately. I have realized that the only thing close to the painful feeling of thinking that someone doesn't love me anymore is the fear that my love for them is dwindling as well. That is a feeling and emotion that I do not want to experience. I am afraid that our current situation is leading down that path. I do not want anymore confrontations or hurtful interactions between us to reduce even further, or take away from what we once shared.

I honestly feel that there is no point in being in contact with one another unless we both have agreed to work together to repair and save our marriage, and to treat each other well again. For me, if we were to renew contact, it would have to consist of going on dates together in public, and/or going for marriage counseling.

So, please let me know if you change your mind and you want to work on our marriage together, with the goal in mind of spending the rest of our lives together. That should be the only reason that you contact me from now on, unless you are contacting me to draw up divorce papers.

If you wish to meet to discuss our future, please leave me a voicemail or send me an email indicating this so that we can arrange a time and place to meet, as I will no longer be answering your phone calls until that time.

If any more mail arrives at the house for me (likely *** mail only at this point), please simply follow the same routine we did in the fall when we weren't in contact, and ***.

So in short, J, I am sincerely asking you to please respect my decision for the need for some space, and to not contact me at all unless you have come to the decision that you want to work together to save this marriage. If you do come to such a decision, please let me know; then we can talk and I will let you know where I am at that point.

With love and sincerity,

Jen
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Jen Brown,

English is my third language, it looks purrrfect to me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . I am proud of you finally taking this step to seek what matters to you.

-rh-

Good work Jen! Stay strong - keep moving forward.

Looks good, Jen, but it's 2long! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

-Qfwfq

Thanks redhat, Alberta and Q (you are 2 funny!).

He called twice again while I was out tonight. Glad I wasn't here. I just see his attempts to contact me as one of two things anymore:
1) he's horny; OR
2) he wants to use me as a punching bag (beat me up and make me feel bad, emotionally speaking) so he can feel better about himself.
There may really be more to it than that (I think maybe he does still care about me to some extent, and isn't sure how to be happy by himself), but at this point he isn't capable of treating me with respect, so I'll have to treat myself with some respect and go to plan B.

I'm fairly certain that giving him the plan B letter will most likely lead to some crazy behaviour on his part to try to contact me (phoning me, trying to come over here, etc.). I'll be amazed if he simply respects my wishes.

You guys know how hard going to Plan B is going to be for me. Thanks for being supportive!

Jen

Hi Jen,

The letter sounds great. This high fallootin attitude looks good on you.

Regards,
Brad

looks ok, have a few comments on this paragraph

So J, unless you decide that you do think you can forgive me someday, and that you want to work together to save our marriage,

la...You are making a dmand/ultimatum, anytime you tie YOUR behaviour to someone elses you create a conflictual circumstance....because you set yourself up as the critic, or judge of whether they have complied. Best to just tell him what you are doing (as you mostly did in this letter).

""I think that it is best if we end all contact with one another, until such time as one of us files for divorce.

la....No "WE'S" implies you are including him in this decision, it is not about him, it is about you.

"""To prolong contact with each other at this point without a genuine desire on both our parts to work to save this marriage seems unproductive, and also causes much more pain, stress and heartache than I can handle.

la...Ok, but leave out part about without a genuine desire on "both"... you are making a disrespectful judgement.

Thanks How? and LA. LA, you are the best at keeping disrespectful judgements out of things. How did you become such a pro?

Odd thing, I got a phone call from my H this morning. He has never called me in the morning. He wanted to know if I'd gone out for his youngest brother's GF's birthday celebration last night and that's why none of them invited him. Hardly. I was over at a friend's house watching the hockey game.

We talked a bit, in reasonable tones, it was good to talk to him when he's sober. He told me it was a huge mistake on my part to read him my lists of what I don't like about him. I said how is it when he's reminded me over and over what he thinks is wrong with me. He tried to deny that, and I reminded him again. He tried to make me repeat the list of things wrong with me that he'd told me about and I refused, telling him he knows, and I've already reminded him of all that.

I told him how I really miss the companionship we once had, and how I get lonely sometimes when I see other happy couples together. I asked him if he ever misses it. He said not really.

I asked him again why he hasn't been willing to spend "social" time with me. First he avoided the question and started going on about how he was willing but I went away on a trip in July and again this week. I told him he should've been up front about wanting to spend time with me. He said he needed to "see what I would do." I told him that, whether it's with me or someone else, he needs to be upfront and honest about what he wants or how he feels, so that people he loves don't do things to cause him (or her) pain. I told him "testing" people like that is a high school way to behave in a relationship, and that it will likely continue to result in him getting hurt (look at the track record for pete's sake). He listened to all of that, and seemed to see me point finally. I asked again why he hasn't ever been willing to try spending social time with me, and he said he doesn't like being around people or talking to them. He says he thinks he's "tried" (to work on our R). He said he thought he was "trying" at our relationship since he had come over to my apt. and spent the night last week. (But, as I pointed out to him, he went right back to being a jerk to me the next time we talked, on the phone, albeit in part b/c he was drunk again).

He pointed out that he will simply never be sexually attracted to anyone else like he is/was to me. He said I was a 7.7/10 as a wife, and that the reason I wasn't a 10 was because I tend to be lazy, that's all.

Then he went back to the same old same old, and asked what kind of underwear I had on, and invited me to come over this afternoon if I wanted to (with the implication that the activity of choice would be sex).

Then he just called back and invited me to come over for breakfast/brunch. Then he went on to tell me to wear some nice underwear, and I sighed and he didn't respond so I told him, "You know why I am sighing, don't you?" He replied with, "You see, that's what I get for trying to be nice," and hung up.

I tried to call him back to suggest we go OUT for brunch (and I'd pay) but he won't answer. I've tried twice. I didn't leave a message.

He makes me mad and sad all at the same time. He thinks he is trying if he's seducing me into bed. Or he's pretending that he thinks he is trying b/c he is horny and needs me sexually.

I think I've made it blatantly clear to him that I can't and won't continue our relationship in a sex only manner. I need more than that. I need to rebuild our friendship first. I think I need to put something direct about that into my letter. BUT HOW??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Sorry for the long vent. I needed to type that all out to process things. Any thoughts on how that whole convo with my H went? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> Any suggestions for how to add what I mentioned in the above paragraphy into my plan B letter? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I am mildly hesitant to go to plan B when he is still willing to talk to me, but I can't handle his tendancy to reduce me to a sex toy.

Ideas anyone?

Jen

Okay, forget my "mildly hestitant" stance from the last post. That's what tearful, lonely Jen had to say. 10 minutes later and I'm feeling stronger again already; Plan B it is!

I don't want to be with my H if he can't respect my needs (especially my need to feel like I am enjoyable to be with even if we're not having sex).

Still, I'd like to somehow add that to the letter. I want to get that letter to him today. THOUGHTS ANYONE?

Jen

I just had a thought as I sit here editing my letter.....Lurkingabout: guess what? A plan B letter IS an ultimatum. I need to be clear about what conditions my H needs to meet in order for me to be willing to continue to interact with him. I HAVE TO make ultimatums.

Here are the two paragraphs that I really changed:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So J, unless you decide that you want to work together to save our marriage, I think that it is best if I end all contact with you, until such time as one of us files for divorce. To prolong contact with each other at this point without an agreed upon plan to work to rebuild this marriage seems unproductive, and also causes much more pain, stress and heartache than I can handle...........

I honestly feel that there is no point in being in contact with one another unless we both have agreed to work together to repair and save our marriage, and to treat each other well again. For me, if we were to renew contact, it would have to focus on rebuilding our friendship, and consist of going on dates together in public, and/or going for marriage counseling. As I have tried to make clear to you, I cannot continue to only see you secretly and privately for primarily sexual purposes. I have more self-respect than that.

So, please let me know if you change your mind and you want to work on our marriage together, differently than we have thus far. That should be the only reason that you contact me from now on, unless you are contacting me to draw up divorce papers.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Shockingly, he tried to call me back again a few minutes ago. No I didn't answer. No he didn't leave a message.

Jen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Jen, a plan B letter is supposed to be a love letter. I think your letter would work better if you share SPECIFIC things he has done that made you happy... things that are NOT sex related (but that probably helped get him some! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ).

Here's a link to my (pre) plan B letter to my H... I hope it might give you some ideas. Keep in mind, I wasn't ready for the NC with H, as we were technically in recovery at that point... I just needed my EN's met by him. (needless to say??? he never did meet them for long).

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=017646#000000

Karen

Jen,

welcome back. One thing I would like to point out...you said you think you have made it blatantly clear you do not want just sex. Jen dont want to be harsh...but what planet have you been on? First it is plan b...good boundaries...next it is sleepover. I am not saying dont be with him. Actually I think it may be part of his healing process but to say you have been perfectly clear is nuts. You tell him lots of stuff...he tells you lots of stuff but neither of you live up to it. He is rude, treats you like crap and then sucks up...WOW he lands in bed with you. You say treat me well, be respectful, love me, he plays half-way nice...WOW he lands in bed with you. Point is neither of you maintain what you want.

I truly think he loves you and wants you back. You have been better about your boundaries but you both backtrack. BTW I dont have ESP but I can almost quote word for word what the plan B letter will get..."High-falootin b****". Reading your other versions of the letter I think is a glimpse into how you two talk. You are both trying but looking back you do attempt to point out his wrong-doings, his mind-set. You have corrected this in your letter...but what about daily life. I think your plan b letter is good but I also think you two play games with each other.

Reality is he is not going to completely cut out his bad behavior at this point. He is not going to give up sex. However, the question is...does he make any progress? And if he invites you over for brunch but insinuates sex...go for brunch. Don't mention the underlying suggestion.
To me want to have brunch and wear pretty panites is a huge jump from "you wanna f***?" not perfection but better. And to my knowledge he has never hidden the fact that he wants you sexually. I know that is not all but is it the place to start? I dont think I could handle it but I am not you. This plan b letter will send him reeling because in his mind he has been trying.

If you went for brunch and he pursued sex why not show him your heart instead of laying down the law?

I agree he needs to treat you better but I am not sure this is the route to get that sort of treatment...if it is plan b...it has to be from the heart because the pain of losing love for him is too much for you to bear. He needs to see you mourn that loss not that you are tough enough to go on without him. He knows your tough.

Anyway I just hope you dont think this letter will snap him into reality...words corresponding actions might but words alone are just that.

Best wishes jen

ayslyne

<small>[ April 06, 2003, 05:38 PM: Message edited by: ayslyne ]</small>

Jen the plan B letter is boundaries. State what needs to be stated, be kind, and not critical. But be blunt, with what needs to be accomplished with the letter.

Also, Lurking about, had some good advice, just some of his advice is not solid. Would like to see if this person used the same advice that he is giving.

Your letter needs to be gentle, but have a plan. Just like the no contact letter. Be gentle, with a plan. You can say in so many weeks, if my feelings are the same, I feel that I should file for divorce. Or if there are no changes, I feel that I should file for divorce, there is no reason to continue on with one person only working on the marriage. Therefore, I need to move on, and moving on means filing. As far as counseling, the only way counseling would be beneficial, is if both partners were committed 100%. Give the statistics, according to what the Harleys say. Like counseling, both partners need to committ 100%, if not, divorce. Also, the wayward spouse has to have no contact with the otherperson, if they can't, then they decide the other person or you. Meaning they move out. On and on. This puts the ball in their hands, and they have to make the decision. That is what you need to do with the letter. Put the ball in his hand, and he throws it which way he decides. That is one thing that I didn't do. My husband used me over and over. Now I am placing the ball in his hand, and if the outcome is not of his liking, that is his problem. I am moving on, and I don't need my husband. I cam survive without him. I do love him some, but not the way I used to. And that is okay. Cause he is not the man I married. So that is the outcome of his affair. And of him being a controller and disrespectful to me. The ball is in his hands, and that is how it should of been in the beginning. I was a whimp, and no longer am I allowing him to be my controller.

So give the letter, with consequences. It is only placing the ball in his hands.

Well, with him having tried to contact me a few more times while I was out today, my hope has (perhaps naively?) increased again.

One thing that rings in my head from our convo this morning is that he thinks he's been trying, but I haven't. I think that I've been trying, but he hasn't. TALK ABOUT MESSED UP!

At the moment, in my current state of mind, I think maybe Topie's idea of a pre-plan B letter, where I tell him what I feel I need is smarter than a letter that ends contact with him. I should be using the medium of a letter to be succinct about what I think and feel and need, rather than to push him away at this point.

ayslyne wrote: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Anyway I just hope you dont think this letter will snap him into reality...words corresponding actions might but words alone are just that. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Indeed, I WAS actually thinking and hoping that the letter would potentially snap him into reality. I realize now that it likely won't. It will (would've) gotten more "high-falootin', self-absorbed, b@#$%" remarks for sure. I was already sort of feeling that way, but almost felt like I "ought to" give it to him b/c so many people on MB keep telling me that's probably the best solution.

BUT I can't give him that letter as it is. I may send him a brief letter (email?) saying something about wishing we could spend time together without it having to be about sex. But again I feel like I should just SAY that to him.

I am tempted to do something really wierd and invite him out for dinner or something for the upcoming weekend, but figure he'll refuse, so I am very hesitant to do such a thing.

It WAS a big deal that he came over here last week and spent the night. He has NEVER done that before. He really "came my way" so to speak. (No dirty pun intended, but oh my there could be one... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ) It really WAS a big deal that he invited me over for brunch. I wish I had just plain old gone and then dealt with his sexual advances once I got there. BUT, I know myself, one of two things would've happened: 1) I would've given in to his advances, or 2) I would've told him no, repeated how I needed to rebuild our friendship without sex so I feel that he cares about ALL of me, and made him mad and left after a nasty fight again. I just don't know how to get out of the cycle!

Faith4me said: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My husband used me over and over. Now I am placing the ball in his hand, and if the outcome is not of his liking, that is his problem. I am moving on, and I don't need my husband. I cam survive without him. I do love him some, but not the way I used to. And that is okay. Cause he is not the man I married. So that is the outcome of his affair. And of him being a controller and disrespectful to me. The ball is in his hands, and that is how it should of been in the beginning. I was a whimp, and no longer am I allowing him to be my controller. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Gee whiz does this ever sound like me.....I don't want to be a wimp and his doormat anymore and let him control me and keep this unproductive cycle going.

BUT now the plan B letter idea seems unwise, yet again! Perhaps I am just plain old INCAPABLE of doing plan B. I can't push him away like that and live with myself. I'd rather he push me away to be completely honest.

It seems a little like some good communication is finally beginning between us, after a couple of good and sober convo's in the past 2 weeks. I am feeling nostalgic all over again about the good old days.

Now what?? (If only I could answer that question for myself....)

Jen (who throws her hands up in the air in frustration!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

<small>[ April 06, 2003, 11:18 PM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

I learned a few things with my "sex" thread today. The biggest new question I wonder about is why does my H still only want to see me privately and secretly?

I also just realized some things while reading over the ongoing "saga of ALS" thread......

Right now, I pretty much never call my H, he generally calls me now. (Just like ALS doesn't call his W anymore, she's just recently called him.) Hmmm...I've forced him to reach out to me maybe? Maybe this is progress of some kind? But wait, I had to say generally b/c I called him last Wed. and Sun. So I'm a wimp. Oops.

I thought it was interesting that ALS made a comment that some friend of his was in counselling with S. Harley and was told that if there are no kids involved that Plan B almost never works, and that "He told him that the key was to maintain contact as much as possible to remain in the minds of our [spouse] as much as possible." Although I guess the obvious difference here is that I'm a FWS trying to possibly invoke plan B on my BS.

If it makes anyone feel any better, I'm back tonight at wondering why I hold out any hope at all. There's so much wrong with my H that he needs to address, I would not be at all happy to be with him as he is now. It would be a huge effort in the name of keeping my marriage vows and praying he becomes a better person someday. Do I really want a part of that? I am not sure that I do.

Rambling Jen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Here we go again!

He just called and guess what the first phrase out of his mouth was? You guessed it, "So you wanna have sex?" I sighed, said I'd like to spend time with you, but no, I want more than "that" and you know that. Then he asked what I was wearing (Mr. Masturbator needed something to think about I guess.) I replied that I am more than what I am wearing, and wouldn't tell him. I then asked him why he isn't willing to spend time with me, just hanging out, and he said I had my chance yesterday with his brunch invitation. I told him no I didn't because he tied that invitation to me wearing nice panties and therefore with the intention of having sex after. Then I tried again to ask why he won't just spend some time with me without sex being the goal, and he said I'm going now, and I said what you won't answer the question? and he said I'm going now and hung up. JERK JERK JERK!!!

Jen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />