Ok for BS to allow WS's to come back into a relationship with them (Of course once they got the strength to stop being a doormat and regaining their strength)

#1- No more Boys. Selfish Demand or a good boundry

#2- No more contact with X-Lovers (Prior to Marriage) Selfish or Good Boundry? Oh yeah but they were faboulous friends who just happened to have sex.

#3- No more private e-mail accounts--Selfish or good boundry

#4- The golden Rule...Treat me as you would be treated etc...Selfish or good boundry

#5- Doing things that build a relationship up instead of tearing it down--Selfish Demand or Good Boundry

The list goes on...

What do you think

Indeed, a lot of potentially good boundaries may be seen as selfish demands by some!

I think it will depend on the individual situation to some extent, but here's MHO:

1 - reasonable boundary
2 - VERY reasonable boundary
3 - reasonable boundary
4 - ABSOLUTELY reasonable boundary
5 - not a boundary or a SD, a reasonable expectation of any healthy relationship

Jen

Boundaries are a great thing and are a wonderful tool for self protection. we all should demand respect and be treated an an acceptable manner. That is not selfish.

The best way to communicate your boundaries are to explain them. Not just expect the other party to just "get it."

Some boundaries have got to be set in stone ( eg it is not acceptable for you to cheat on me), but with others ,incursions might occur especially if they are new.

Take your stance on number 5.. there is a chance that boundary maybe incurred... especially if your W's behaviour has been a long time in the making. Are you prepared to leave the relationship then if he slips or are you prepared to say

HEY Wifey.. when you do that thing, it makes me feel .. ( give her the details), I intend to leave the house for a while ( and do it)then on return perhaps you might say...
you must understand if this continues I will have to consider all my options, including leaving the relationship. Give her some good warnings...if she is just getting used to the new stronger you.

I read once if we set a boundary we let go of the consequences..because they belong to the other person.

I do wish you well.

<small>[ April 08, 2003, 02:28 AM: Message edited by: dinotopia ]</small>

So what about the spouse that screams that the person setting boundaries is selfish and condascending? (and implying that they are just making selfish demands and ultimatums?)

Jen

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So what about the spouse that screams that the person setting boundaries is selfish and condascending? (and implying that they are just making selfish demands and ultimatums?)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jen,

That sounds like an old-fashioned temper tantrum to me. He wants that toy...."give me that toy....I want to play with that toy...if you loved me, you would give me that toy".

He is just short of holding his breath until he is blue in the face! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Unless, he has already tried that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

committed

there's a big difference between boundaries and demands.

Boundary: I need a sexually exclusive relationship.

Demand: No more boys for you.

------------------------------------

Boundary: I need a sexually and emotionally exclusive relationship with my spouse.

Demand: No more contact with X-Lovers.

------------------------------------

Boundary: I need an open and honest relationship.

Demand: No more private e-mail accounts.

------------------------------------

Boundary: I need a relationship that fills these emotional needs. In return, I am willing to meet your emotional needs.

Demand: The golden Rule...Treat me as you would be treated etc

------------------------------------

The problem is, you can't demand that your spouse do anything.

The focus should be on YOU.

What do YOU need?

Steve Harley told me that I couldn't make those selfish demands (no girlfriends, no private email, open cell phone bills, etc). He told me that he would make those demands for me, to my husband, by telling my husband that he needed to do those things as part of a plan for recovery.

So when my husband said to me: I want to come home and repoair our marriage.

I said: Wha tis YOUR plan to restore my trust?

My boundary was that I needed a sexually exclusive, honest and open relationship. I did not have that from my husband. So after waiting and doing plan A and all that jazz..it was apparent that he wasnt' going to give me what I needed.

So I didn't demand. I drew a boundary by filling for divorce.

When he asked me to stop, I asked him what he planned to do to give me the things I needed from him.

And he had a list and a plan. And since his plan matched what I needed, then I could drop that boundary.

Boundaries protect self. Demands try to force others to change to suit your desires (rightly or wrongly).

This is a great topic. BrambleRose, I like your comments. I was just trying to think of some boundaries that I can set. My FWS is living with AIL and seems content. I believe he wants me to ask him to come home. We have a real problem with communicating.

WR

Refreshing way to see things BrambleRose. Sort of shows a detailed example of how given a goal of X, the means to X can really effect the reality or perception by the WS.

rlyhurtin,

I think #4 about the Golden Rule is flawed and very hard to measure as a boundary. Also, if your wife wants to be wooed with gifts, but you are a touch person, would you want your W to buy you a gold bracelet?

btw, re #1, I think it's sort of unfair to demand something as uncontrollable as the sex of a baby even if you are really, really set on having a girl. j/k

More seriously though, that's a boundary that needs to be clarified. The way it's worded now is pretty vague. Of course, it means "no PAs", but is she allowed to talk to men? or let them do nice things for her? There's a concept of "rules of protection" that may help.

<small>[ April 08, 2003, 01:51 PM: Message edited by: est ]</small>

Est-

So are you saying that I should not set the boundries of having "other men" in her life. Thats what I meant by "no more boys"--I hope you aren't insinuating that I should continue to tolerate "boys" in her life?

As far as the golden rule...I don't mean gold bracelets & etc...I mean for Pete's sake to be nice, fair and understanding of each other. You know the golden rule. For example, if she lived it she would have said "HMMMMMMMMMMM would Rly Hurtin be OK with this if I cheat on him"--No "Well I guess I better not"---Heck we are all attracted to the opposite sex and alot of us BS's have had our chance to be with attractive other people and you know what...Besides vows, the main thing that rang thru my head that told me to flee certain situtaions was "Would Mrs. Rly hurtin be hurt if she knew."

rly,

FWIW...I agree with the concept of no more boys.

A person would like to think that would be a given. I also gather you are speaking as in "no more boys meeting your EN's"...correct? A person can come into contact with a person of the opposite sex anytime of the day. It would be unreasonable to want someone to cross the street and walk away when they see a "male" coming.

IMHO, when both people embrace the golden rule, "Do unto others as you would have them to do unto You" there is not much that can go wrong in a marriage. Treat your spouse (yucky word) as you would like to be treated. Its a simple complex, isn't it?

Maybe est is posting with some humor?

committed

<small>[ April 08, 2003, 02:32 PM: Message edited by: committedandlovingit ]</small>

rly,

no you can't set a boundary demanding that your wife not have other men in her life.

That's a demand. Your wife is free to have as many men in her life as she wants.

What YOU get to decide is whether or not you want a woman in your life that has multiple men in her life.

It's a big difference.

Boundaries protect you. Boundaries result in actions that YOU take to protect you.

Demands attempt to force other people to suit your desires.

I'm glad this thread got started rlyhurtin, and very much appreciative of BrambleRose's input. I'm learning a lot here about the fine line between a demand and a boundary!!

Jen

Bramble-

For the record, I am not saying turn tale and run when a man is in the area. Nor am I saying that she can't have male aquaitances.

I guess I don't understand why you disagree. So let me put it as simply as possible.

"WW, a condition of being together is no more affairs."--None, period, amen, end of story.
Is that a tough concept for some people. Obviously otherwise we wouldn't all be here posting or am I blind. "WW no more having sex, no more love letters, no more computuer sex, none."

I have an idea:
How about not viewing it as a selfish demand nor a boundry, BUT JUST COMMON SENSE, SOMETHING THAT SHOULD BE ASSUMED, SOMETHING THAT EVERYONE KNOWS INSTICTIVELY!--You just don't do that Bull S@$^%
and think its ok.

You know its funny when so many Wayward Spouses say "I never meant to hurt you." "I really care about you"--THAT IS A JOKE! If this is how you care for me, I would hate to see what you would be like if you didn't! Oh yeah Mrs. Rly, you never meant to hurt me, what did you think I would be leaping for joy? Its a joke.

Are we making selfish demands at the altar when we except the promise of our spouse to not do exactly these things?

rly ~

please understand that I am coming from the perspective of a BS that has taken her WS back...and had a successful recovery for almost 2 years.

I also had the benefit of counseling with Steve Harley, which I highly recommend.

So please understand that I have a bit of experience from my own life lessons and from the official MB approach!

I have all those things that you want with your wife in my own marriage.

I didn't get them by making selfish demands that my husband live according to my rules of how I thought that a marriage should be operated.

it so happens that I agree with you that the things you list should be present in a marriage - at least any marriage that *I* am participating in!

BUT, the problem is, your wife clearly has different values. And your approach is a demand that she follow YOUR rules for marriage to make YOU happy.

What you ahve to decide is: What does rlyhurtin need?

If, like me, you need a sexually exclusive relationshiop that is honest and open, and your wife is not willing to participate in that type of a marriage....demanding that she chagne will not get you anywhere. In fact, its called an LB for a reason!

So if you are going to draw a boundary, you ahve to change what you are doing. For example, not putting up with the types of things she is doing, NOT by forcing her to change, but by removing yourself form the harm (ie plan B, or divorce are 2 possible choices).

So what I am saying is htat yes, what you want is fine. I have a problem with how you are trying to get it.

And what is common sense to you is not necessarily so to your wife....and any time you start feeling superior and wanting to "straighten her out" you are guilty of a disrespectful udgement.

btw, I can tell you that my WS didn't set out with the intention of hurting me.

Be very careful about your judgements of Mrs Rly.

My WS set out to make himself happy, which also had a secondary consequence, which was devastating hurt to me and his kids. And yes, he's faced that and been making amends for quite some time. But he really didn't eman to hurt me.

Sorry rlyhurtin, I may have been too light and left myself up to some ambiguity. To clarify:

No More Boys
"No boys in life" is vague. "in your life" is vague. I hear what you're saying, but I don't know what you mean. I honestly don't know if you mean if you mean just affairs, friendships, professional relationships, or no avoidable contact with any guy. Heck, you could mean being cold to cousins. Leave a loophole and you leave a potential rationalization.

"No more affairs" can be too late. People (in particular women) usually don't think "I'm going to have an affair" before they are in the A. It's probably safer to set this particular boundary as something like, "Don't be in situations where other (non exs) men can meet you ENs". If you can be specific about ENs, then even better. It's summarized as Rules of Protection in Harley speak. Basically, recognize one's vulnerabilities and take steps to keep them protected.

Golden Rule
My point was that the Golden Rule has limits. It's great for avoiding an affair. But it can be disasterous for meeting ENs. For meeting ENs, it's more like, "Treat your spouse the way they want to be treated", not "Treat your spouse the way you would want to be treated" once you get into the specific ENs. Of course, for things like general consideration, the golden rule would still apply.

My overall comment is that some of the boundaries could use some work. Either being more specific or not being "boundaries", but rather principles that both parties should strive for.

Bramble/Est:

Bramble, I am very happy that *you* are participating in a great new marriage. I understand and agree 100% of what you are saying. I don't say those things to Mrs Rly. I have been the "doormat" for 3 years. I know you are right...Ok? But since you seem to be sitting in judgement of my situation, I will tell you this...You simply don't know my situation. Every situation on here isn't a textbook Marriage Builders case. And for the record, the first chapter of Fall in Love Stay in Love, Harley points out exactly what I eluded on...The concept of "if this is how you care for your spouse (by having an A) then I would hate to see what it would be like if you didn't care."

Bramble, you are however 100% correct. How many times do we have to say these things to ones spouse. "I need to be in an open/honest relationship that is sexually exclusive." --Didn't we promise to God and about 5,000 people at our wedding ceremony we would do just that? Isn't that enough?

INHO, there are many types of people having affairs.

There are ones who are honorable people who just made a bad mistake and then they work their butts off to make things right. They are wonderful folks who just made a bad choice and do their part in recovery

Then there seems to be ones who just have a "problem"--Those who cheat all of the time because they need the drama, the new flavor of the week, and they literally don't care what they do to their families. But then something happens they snap out of it and make things right.

Then there are the ones who do the above and have no regard for anything and do nothing but keep doing it. And never make things right.

So sometimes using the MB method falls on deaf ears if you know what I mean. For example, on D-Day. I simply say, Please don't do this anymore. It really hurts and I would like to be in a relationship where we trust each other."--Did that work...Not. Sometimes it feels like you have to make a firm point after all of the MB techniques don't work because Bramble, you are right using these techniques are the most loving way to bring about change.

rly ~ well what I am saying to you is falling on deaf ears! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

If you've got the time...go back and read my story. It wasn't any easier or harder than yours. I nearly made it to divorce court before things turned around.

Why did they turn around? Because *I* learned the things I am trying to share with you now. Because if I had continued to judge my husband, and to make demands, then I would be divorced right now.

(Demands) Telling my husband about my needs did not do squat to change a thing.

(Boundaries) Learning to love and respect myself and by doing so, ldrawing firm boundaries with what I would accept in my life, and therefore letting go of the outcome was the turning point.

You can't force your wife to do one darn thing, not even keep her vows.

What you can do is choose if you want a woman in your life who for today is who she is, a woman who does not believe the same values that you do.

When you reach the point wher eyou can do this, believe me, there will be changes.

Your wife will either willingly choose to do what she needs to do for your marriage or she'll go her own way. Either way, you'l'l be a better and stronger man for it.

You see, myt husband and i had a false recovery. I took him back, we started with Steve Harley, and nothing workedk. I demanded that he do the things I needed....he continued lying and dating alot of othr women behind my back

There was a day, a eureka moment, when I suddenly came to apoint where I realized that my husband was who he was - a married man who lied and cheated and wasn't ready or willing to participate in the kind of marriage i needed.

Protesting - But you promiseid! doesn't work either.

So, instead of angrily telling him to shape up, I called him up, met him, and told him that I had tried to do my best to fix my part of our marriage, and that I was exhausted, and that I needed something other than what he had to give.

And again, my husband promised to do it all, whatever *I* wanted. (He stillw asnt willing to even do the workd to figure out what he needed to do, he wanted me to tell him). I didn't buy it, as I was no longer focused on forcing a specific outcome (our marriage).

Fast forward 4 months....I insisted that he start a regular visitation schedule...and I started planning my new life...our first court date loomed on the horizon.

And THEN my husband came to me and said: I am so sorry, I have been wrong, here is what I am going to do to fix this.

You see, it was his choice, not my demand.

And THAT is the basis of recovery. A WS who is bullied into demands (even reasonable ones like fidelity) is going to be resentful and not fully participating - and you can count on a false recovery.

Bramblerose and I will no doubt differ here but everyone has the right to protect and defend themselves. So in the strictest of terms.. some boundaries are infact demands.

rhy you wrote this

"WW, a condition of being together is no more affairs."--None, period, amen, end of story.

I believe every healthy relationship should have two definate demands/ boundaries. ie ... NO ABUSE and NO BETRAYAL...simple.. they are my strongest boundaries and I demand them for me to continue in our marraige. I have the right to demand respect for myself and our marriage... if I dont get them its tata dino... that is not a selfish demand.

Other boundaries Rhy , I do believe your on the right track. its the method of communication as to the way bramble is delivering.. you must take the blame game out of your boundaries... and focus on you. You cannot control your wife,infact you are totally powerless over her, but your wife if your boundaries are set and consquences served will begin to understand your personal tolerances. its up to your wife if she can meet your boundaries head on and keep pushing or realise.. you mean business.

and Jen to answer your question I gather was addressed to me.....if the boundary is delivered in the correct manner, you should not have that problem.. but if you do.... serve a consequence...whether that is walking away or what have you.. but never engage. set your boundary and stick to it.