I found it last night. It's on her plan so that I wouldn't find out about it. Here I have been checking our bills thinking that he isn't calling her only to find out the lengths the two of them will go to deceive me. I didn't flip out but calming asked him to be honest with me. They have been communicating about 2-3 times per week over the phone. He doesn't think there is anything wrong since it's only because they are still friends. Bull$hit! I have been going through this for seven months now only to find out that he still doesn't get it and I don't know if he ever will. I didn't say much, just listened. I think I was in shock. He was very open and answered all of my questions-but every time I catch him in something he is like this. Then he promises me the world and a few months later something like this happens. He told me the next move is mine. I told him that this was his decision-only he can control his actions. He would have to decide what he wants to do, but we can't go on like this. He refuses to go to MC. What do I do now?
Pat

M-18 yrs
3 kids-16,12,9

You need to have him write a letter of No Contact, that you read and approve, and watch him drop in a mail box. Get with a plan A and set the boundries.

Sure would not trust any promises he makes to you. He only admits his wrong-doing after being caught red-handed! He is foxy and probably proud of it. What ws's need to do is think how they would feel if they had this done to them.

I have been in plan A since dday in August 2002. He admits he has seen changes, but still says he is confused. I am just so tired and worn out. I know no matter what happens I will be okay. Despite everything I still want to work this out with him, but I feel like I have made no difference at all. How do I demand that he engage in NC without it being a demand? It has to be his choice-how do I make it his choice?
Pat

I may be way out of line here, but it seems like he wants you to leave him. "the next move is yours" says to me "this is what i'm doing, now what are you going to do about it."

I'm NOT saying that you should leave. It just seems to me that he's pushing for you to make a decision so that he doesn't have to.

I agree with Katie Scarlett. Him giving her a NC letter means nothing because obviously they will find another way of communicating like they have done. But this time they will try to be even sneakier. He doesn't get it, because you have been in Plan A for so long that he hasn't had to deal with the repercussions. I think it is time for you to consider Plan B. Right now he is all words, no action. And by saying that this is HIS DECISION, then you just left the door wide open for him to continue doing what he is doing...stop enabling him and stop giving him the decisions for YOUR LIFE. He has proven that he won't pick whats in YOUR BEST INTEREST! JMO

The descriptions you are using ie. tired, worn out, and confused are what the both of you are feeling. Katie Scarlett is on cue. Seems like he will just hang out in this place almost as long as you will. We have to set up rules and we have to trust that we will each work at it. Honesty is not natural to everyone I am finding. Sometimes the WS needs to know that you are at the limit here. Get resolution by making the decision, or you know , get a counselor- that can help you to determine the best path. If he won't join in the counseling, you go. I bet it will honestly peak his curiosity! What do you think?

I have had the feeling for awhile that he wants me to tell him to leave. This way I would be the one who broke up the family-not him. That's why I don't know if Plan B is the next step because in a twisted way I think it is what he wants. I think it would actually be a relief to him to have me tell him to leave rather than make the decision for himself. I agree, so far he has not had any repercussions.

I have been looking for a MC for myself. I have an appt. with Steve Harley next week also. I am hoping that he will give me some clarity as to what my next step should be. I have begun looking at sample plan b letters, but I'm not sure if this should be the next step. I know that I have to be absolutely sure if this is the next step I want to take. There will be no turning back.
Pat

You make great decisions. Believe in yourself too. Wanting to do something and doing something are great differences. There is only going forward. Clarity is a wonderful goal and happiness. Best wishes Pat and God be with you! wflower

Thank you all for your responses. I told him that either he cease all contact with her and prove it to me and go to MC or if he cannot stop communicating with her than he would have to leave. I asked him very calmly what is it he gets from continued contact with her and he said "nothing". I asked him "then why is it worth jeopardizing everything". He couldn't answer me. After everything that has happened he still breaks my heart with his confusion. I think he is truely addicted to her and I need to be the strong one now.
Pat

I think that honesty is a problem because the WS is not honest with himself. They keep their conscience in some removed place. Counseling gets it out. For you too. You did well to spell it out for him. He needs to think. Anything of value in our life is work, time, effort. That shows concern and compassion and love.

Thank you so much Wflower for your words of support. I feel so alone much of the time- no one knows what is going on in my house except for me, my WH and OW. I think it is going to come down to me implementing plan b and letting everything hit the proverbial fan. How do I do this when he is still living at home and we have children? Do I give him a certain time frame to leave? Do we tell the children together? I know he will try to talk me out of it which is why I know I have to be sure. I can be a wimp at times which is why plan A has gone on for so long. Any advice would be appreciated.
Pat

<small>[ April 10, 2003, 11:28 AM: Message edited by: patmik ]</small>

Personally I don't think it's true that he gets "nothing" out of contact with her. I agree that maybe he's not being honest with himself.

Good for you for standing up for yourself.

Involve your counselor in bouncing these ideas off him. To me it sounds like you have been carrying the torch. You seem to take responsibility. The WH needs to do some work. It bothers me that he said "he has seen some changes". So he consciously has seen but where is his need to respond. Yes, the fellow is getting some thing from the OW. It is deluding. Personally, I would not take further action until I talked to the professional counselor. You have been dealing with this for a while and how you go about these items you just mentioned are valid concerns. Take it easy and pray about it too. My prayers are with you. wflower

Patmik,

Some things are easier to see from the outside...

I think that setting some boundaries would be a good step.

If you choose this, I choose this... YOu cannot demand that he choose anything, but you can draw boundaries that protect you.

I reccomend the book, Boundaries- by Cloud and Townsend. Take care of you right now, it is obvious he is not going to do his part for now.. so draw those boundaries.. that is what I am having to do... I have been seperated almost 19 months and I am very sick of having a h on the fence- but we have not lived together this whole time.

Hugs, please keep posting and cking in.'

Honey

I have pretty much come to the conclusion that he will never choose one way or the other or I think he would have done it by now. Get this - he insists that OW has been counselling him to stay in the M and has been a good friend! Her exH left her and their son to marry someone else.

How anyone could have gone through this as a BS with children and then do the same thing to someone else is beyond me. I would not wish this on my worst enemy. Right now I feel like I need to pull back from him and concentrate on my kids. I know his leaving is going to completely devastate them.
Pat

How utterly confused. The counselor needs to be a professional who went to a certified college to learn how to help. I am sorry for you that your husband is acting so dumb. You should keep your meeting scheduled, though. I don't know what I would do. But, I would definately want the professional support. God love you. He is getting involved way over his head, she's divorcing this one and on... Don't talk to him unless he goes for real help.

Patmik. you said OW gave him a cell phone? Where is it?Why have you not taken hammer to it by now?
And him! He's lying through his teeth. NC means nothing.
No way a WS and OP can be friends or remain in contact. Time to put him on the curb and let the slut pick him up.
If he's got any brains, he'll eventually wake up. And if he doesn't, then you're better off without him.
Ultimatums do have to be given or we remain doormats. Not going to allow it in my home or life!
Mine wanted to remain friends too as she was his old HS sweetheart. I gave him an ultimatum. Her or me, but if me, then there would never be as much as a call, letter or anything. And if we were ever to meet her on the street, absolute snub! That is unlikely as she lives in another state. But we may cruise out of that port someday!
Any Ws who truly wants to save their marriage knows they have to dump OP immediately and never talk to again!
God bless you, I know you're really hurting.
LouLou

Thank you both for your replies.
Wflower-It's like watching someone you love step in front of a speeding train and there is nothing you can do to stop it. I know he is making the biggest mistake of his life. I think he even realizes it, but can't help himself. I can't let him bring me down any more with him. He would be happy just to let things stay as they are, but that is out of the question. Choosing not to choose is not an option.

LadyLou-Thanks for making me laugh. Believe me there are many violent scenarios that I have played through my mind time and time again. As far as I know he still has the phone. I have given him a choice-the marriage with counselling or her. He doesn't seem to believe that I would ever really do anything. I told him this morning that we need to seriously think about separating until he can commit one way or the other. When I think of everything he has done to me the resentment is starting to overtake the love and I am at the point where it will probably be a relief for him to leave. The only thing that has kept me here for this long has been the children. I never believed that he would put the OW before them, but I guess I was wrong. I have a very strong feeling that once he is out of the house real life will hit him right between the eyes. He has never been alone before except for college. We got married right after that. He has always had someone cook for him, clean, doing everyday things-not to mention how much he will miss the kids, our mutual friends, the community. I just am afraid that by the time he straightens himself out, I won't be interested anymore, to much damage has been done.
Pat

Are you going to talk to your counselor? Or have you talked to him already? You have gone through a lot of emotions in a short period of time. Personally, adjustment takes time and I think that even if you know in your heart what you need, the professional support-so you can pick up the phone when you need to-something unexpected happens- etc... You will have one person that knows you, your story and will be there to help you through. Message boards are great, but not a substitute for the counselor. Keep faith , wflower