You may remember my situation - WW, 13 months after d-day, still refusing to engage in our relationship, to give and receive help and emotional support. Still living together under 1 roof, avoiding generally tough R-talks. Once in a while I would dish the topic on the table (like yesterday), saying that I can't live with the current situation, saying that if she refuses to engage we have to separate. Typically, her reaction to this was either stalling ("wait till school holidays", "not now", "wait till after the holidays", "wait till I have found a job") or defiance ("fine, if that's what you want, let's separate").

As I have told you earlier, I'm more and more at peace with the situation. Whilst I was a rambling, crying, begging lunatic the days after d-day, I start to care less and less and accept the (potential, but more and more likely outcome) that she simply will not ever want to come back. Her reason? She says "she can't live with what happened" (ie, the shame), even if I was to forgive her. Also, she conjures up all the negative images from the past, filtering out the good times, and rationalising and rewriting our history ("you were never happy with me anyway").

Last weekend I was in Paris to run the marathon and to go to Eurodisney, with my daughter. We had great fun. The day before we left, I have learnt that WW was going to Geneva that weekend - she sort of mentioned it en passant. The official reason was "to visit a music festival". In Paris, walking down the Champs Elysees with friends & daughter, I receive phone calls from her (female) friend that she didn’t turn up for the meeting or whatever….. of course, all my alarm bells go off in my head. Huge flash backs of the bad time during her affair, where she would invent reasons to go to places, not telling me, meeting so-called friends etc etc whilst secretly meeting OM.
I thought it over for a while, and was quite upset: In fact, she was in Lyon a month ago, came back and told me "how great it was to be among musicians, how understanding they were etc etc". So….. do we have an OM#2 situation emerging? Likely, very likely - the pattern is there. That's why I got so upset.

<strong>BUT - you know what? </strong>

I was upset for exactly 5 minutes. Then I looked around. I was looking at my daughter, the cheeky and gorgeous thing. I was looking at my friends. I was looking down the Champs Elysees and just laughed. If WW wants to torment herself, screw herself up, you know, that's really up to her. I was having a good time, I spent great time with my daughter, and I didn&#8217;t let anyone spoil it. Full stop. And this attitude wasn't just induced by French cuisine and nice claret, but it was the Real Nick, and he still thinks that way, even when I'm now back at work behind my desk. I'm even not bothering to investigate and check on WW whether there is indeed a new OM #2 or not. I have stopped keeping tabs and snooping on her. It's just really boring and doesn&#8217;t help me.

The outcome of our R-talk yesterday (see first two paragraphs) was that she said "OK, let us move on (separately)". But, she doesn&#8217;t want us to sell the house, and she still stalls ("wait till I found a job"). Sometimes I feel like she still loves me, has feelings for me, but is too stuck, too proud, too ashamed to come out of her hole and take my outstretched hand. Damn, I still love her, you know, and feel great sadness thinking about the destruction of our family, if that is going to happen.

I have scheduled now an appointment with a solicitor early next week. (Ouch, these guys are expensive - £200/hr. costs as much as 10 sessions with our MC <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ). I will ask for a complete material separation with custody agreement - but not for a divorce. Not sure if that's possible or what the Solicitor says, let's see.

Hi Nick

Well, good news and bad news I guess. The good news is that this potentially devastating news didn't turn you into a quivering jelly-like wreck. The bad news is that you feel you're at the place to move on, even though you still feel deep down there are signs of life and hope in your WW.

I know from before many of us always used to ask you how long you could go on in the current limbo situation. You would say "Sometimes, I think I can go on indefinitely, other times, I think I will just know and walk". I think you're at that point. I think it was coming (you were going to look at flats etc.), but now there's something else.

I still believe your WW is a cakewoman. She is full of excuses about finding jobs, timings etc. None of these hold much water do they? And frankly, why should it be your problem to wait until such time as it is convenient for her?

I think it is right you should see a Solicitor. I know for me it was a very stabilising thing. You may remember H had been making threats towards me financially about what he was going to take from me etc. but the Solicitor completely reassured me about what my rights were and the situation. A legal seperation may be the best option for you, but as I said in my case, I fear still being liable for H and his ability to run up potentially big debts. It is only since his return from Germany last summer that he finally has no debts - for 12 years I have bailed him out....

Anyway I digress. Your situation is completely different. You have your D and your responsibilities to her. Would you want custody? Would that be practical?

Nick, I have followed your posts since I first came here. I have always admired your "staying" ability, but at times have wondered where this may be leading you. Whatever path you take, know that you did you very best, and that one day things will be better for you.

Wishing you well from sunny North London.
Lisa

Nick-

Good for you, I think it's the right move to initiate contact with a solicitor. It'll be the first of what may be several doses of reality for your W, something she needs badly. You're definitely going to be alright, what with that runners mentality and a sense of humor. BTW, I'm running my first organized race ever this evening with a friend. It's a 5k and I'm just shooting for sub 10 miles. Good luck with everything!

Wow Nick,

You sound so together and calm, and what a great moment it must have been in Paris whne you had your epiphany.

Like Lisa, I have wondered how much you can take and I think you are right to make this move. Whether your WW will be able to break out of her pattern of behaviour remains to be seen, but I think there is an even chance she won't from what you say.

Nick I wish you well.
How did you go in Paris? You're not gunning for London this weekend are you?

Deluded

Nick,

I have never posted to you. My situation bears some similarities to yours in the sense that H is at home but not lifting a finger to rebuild our R.

I understand that wounderful feeling of releasing the anxiety over what WS is doing/not doing. I am glad for you that you had that epiphany. In Paris no less. I am convinced that you will travel the rest of this voyage with a lighter heart. There may be more valleys...but this feeling that you are OK, and that she can screw her life up is she wants to...will resurface again and again...

cheers

Hi there Nick.

I think the visit to the solicitor is a good idea. Knowledge is always good. A visit to a solicitor does not necessarily mean you WILL divorce. But since your wife has so far refused to truly work on rebuilding your marriage, you may have no other choice.

I am so glad to hear about your experience in Paris. You are in a good place emotionally.

I will guarantee you one thing Nick- you will love and be loved again someday, either with your wife or someone else. You have the tools and the knowledge.

Nick -- It is both freeing and somewhat scary to have that kind of experience, but I think it's good. I know I am calmer since I really embraced the fact that I cannot help WS unless they try and help themselves. I think this is a very good and positive step for you Nick.

The others are right about the solicitor. It gave me a great sense of control to know more completely what my options are with regard to legal separation and divorce.

I wish you the best and am hoping (and think you are by the tone of your post) you feel a sense of relief that has been absent for so very long. Life should be about joy right now for you.

Nick123,

Have you consider plan B along with her moving out but don't file ?. I agree with you to discuss it with lawyer, you need to check it up.

-rh-

Think I am getting to that stage too Nick. Think you are doing the right thing even if it is incredibly sad - and expensive <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Many thanks everybody for your contributions to my thread and the advice and support given. Really much appreciated.

<strong>Lisa</strong> - I absolutely agree re. timing. Any time is as good/bad as any other, there's always a reason to delay, not commit, etc etc. Thanks - I hope too there will be something different, better, around the corner, either with or without her.
<strong>Litchfield</strong> - Yes, I'm looking forward to tomorrow's solicitor visit. All told, I'm likely to get raped financially, but who cares.
<strong>Deluded</strong> - No, I didn&#8217;t run London on Sunday, 1 Marathon a week is quite enough, thank you very much! Paris I did in 4 hours and <strong> three seconds </strong>. Arghhh.
<strong>Eleanor</strong> - re 'not lifting a finger': she thinks her very presence, that she hasn&#8217;t moved out yet, should be good enough for me. Well, it's not. Especially if you have proof, that she continues to contact other(s) behind my back. Half a year ago, this would have been good enough for me, as the simple hope that eventually things will improve will have prohibited me from starting a separation. Things have changed. But the release of anxiety is such a liberation.
<strong>Espoir</strong> - What can I say? Your comment of
" I will guarantee you one thing Nick- you will love and be loved again someday, either with your wife or someone else. You have the tools and the knowledge."
Are so true&#8230; beautifully said, thanks.
<strong>USH</strong> - yes, the relief, the let-go of the anxiety is a great feeling. But you know, it didn&#8217;t happen just like 'snap' in one go&#8230;. Even now and today I still have sort of anxiety attacks where I suddenly feel worthless, betrayed, become upset, angry of what happened and sad for what could have been. But all told, yes, it's a relief.
<strong>Redhat</strong> - You write "Have you consider plan B along with her moving out but don't file ?". Yes, when we split, I will cut all contact. Call it plan B. This will be an elementary mechanism of self-protection. She abused me, at this given point in time she chooses destruction over reconciliation, so I don&#8217;t really want to stay in contact with her, I don&#8217;t really have anything left to say to her. In fact, I don&#8217;t even want her to know where I will live and what I will do with whom.
Your other part of the phrase is unfortunately not going to work: She refuses to move out (despite me having offered her to get a plane ticket to OM).
<strong>Bowd</strong> - Thanks for the heads-up. Yes, I think and I am convinced that I do the right thing. What's the news from the trenches in Bowd-land?

***

Had a couple of talk over the weekend&#8230; good, honest and frank talks (apart from her providing any specifics on OM#1 and new contacts, call him John Doe #2 (in the absence of confirmation of EA/PA)).
Bottom line being,
- She is saying that she cannot understand why she can't be intimate with me, feeling close to me. (Well, big wonder, if she keeps calling the little s**t).
- She feels I am rushing now
- She wants more time to figure herself out, why this is the case etc etc.
- She keeps saying that "she is here for me" (Well, physically she is living in our house, yes, but she just refuses to acknowledge and satisfy every singly one of my ENs, and refuses to have any single one of her ENs being satisfied by me - apart from security).
- She says that "she doesn&#8217;t want to hurt me", "wants me to be happy" etc etc bla bla - but fails to see that she is doing exactly the contrary by her actions.

We pretty much arrived at a shared diagnosis of why the affair happened; so far so good. But, right now, it's her who chooses to destruct the family, and destruction I will give her.

Again, the filing of application for citizenship proves to be a major point - she wants us to do it jointly, as it makes more sense, but I keep asking - if the whole relationship goes to hell, what's in for me here to help her? She chooses 'everybody for him/herself', not me. Silly little argument point maybe, but gotta draw the line somewhere.

Thanks & Take care folks,
Nick

Update - she just called me, that she wants a divorce, that she is really, really sorry, that it's not against me, that she cant make me happy without standing on her own feet etc etc.

I just said: You want this, not me, it's your decision; now leave me alone, please.

Nick I'm so sad for you. But at least you can move forward and at least WW has finally gotten off that fence she's been sitting on for so long.And you know that you have done absolutely everything that you could have done to save your M.
So now one of you should move out and you can go to Plan B. Let her file if she wants to. Unless you feel that no matter what, you have moved beyond the point of being able to rebuild-I got the feeling that you were near that place?

Nick,I am sure you will be happy. Now in a way, your W stating finally her position on your M is the prod you were searching for to help you get some momentum towards happiness.Nick! You deserve someone to love you !

I'm vibing positive thoughts to you from down here.

Hey ,what's with this Marathon thing,it's only 26 miles after all!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Had a chat with a solicitor today. In short I'll get absolutely shafted in the process. My WW is likely to get something like 75% of the assets, plus I would pay maintenance & child support on top, which would be equivalent to a £50k salary. Alternatively I may settle by giving 100% (!) of all assets to achieve a clean break, plus or minus. This would include the inheritance from my grandparents and more importantly, from my father. If she would decide to move out of the country (to OM living in San Fran, say), then - provided the arrangements are reasonable - a court would not stop that.

I'm still young to start all over, but I have to say I find this quite brutal, should it come to that: WW having fun, calling the relationship a day, and I lose it all: the relationship, self-esteem from being betrayed, possibly the daughter (still being able to step in as a holiday attraction though - provided I pay the plane tickets of course) and to top it all, all of my earthly goods!

That may all sound now like I'm winging and whining and going to freak out or something... truth is, that I can just sit back and laugh. really. if it comes to that, then she can have it all, part and parcel. I shall move on, and never look back.

Deluded, thanks for the positive vibes. They're working.

<small>[ April 15, 2003, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: Nick123 ]</small>

Nick

I'm absolutely gob-smacked. I guess this is the thing here where every case is different. Yours of course involves your D, but this seems hugely disproportional. Is this solictor on your side?!?!?!? Sorry, don't mean to be flippant. I suppose the thing is you can make an offer, but also the thing about her taking your D out of the country seems terrible. Could you go for custody? Would you go for custody?

Nick, I know you will do what you believe is right and you will move forward. One day you will look back on this and know that you have come a long long way.

Wishing you well from north London on a very warm evening.
Lisa

Well what can I say? You know the law - WW will have a need to live in a 2 Bed in London/Zone 2 to be able to cater for daughter (regardless whether full custody or not); her "earning capacity" is maybe 15k, so she'll be able to raise a mortgage of 45k. You know well that a 2 bed in zone 2 is 250k+, so that's a quarter of a mill already, just for starters. And then we have maintenance (call it 1.5k per month), Child support (800 per month) but that doesnt include yet the private school (10k/y) etc etc. All told, I'll lose it all. But then again, hey, it's only money.

Nick123,

Just curious ... in US or CA to be exact, Private School is not consider a necessity so does house to be in an exact zone. Dv is hard for everyone, you half the resource you have. Even my 2D skating expenses is consider entertainment ... Did UK law is much diff ?.

-rh-

Hi Redhat,

Yes, Private School is also not a necessity in the UK, however, state schools here in London are so pathetic that you really dont want to send your child there. By "zone", I meant the London Tube zones, to indicate an area with 'acceptable commuting time' to and from school. Child support is fixed at at leasat 15% of after tax salary, resp. proportion thereof based on how many days the child stays with you/partner. There might be a floor to that, so not exactly sure. In terms of maintenance, it's basically the cost for WW to become self-sufficent, e.g. a couple of years to retrain/find job etc.
"halve the resources you have" - well, not entierly. It's a halving in principle, however at the end the needs of both must be met. If one (me) has ten times the "earning capacity" than the other, plus if you assume that the child stays most of the time with her, then its not 50:50, rather 100:0.

I think I become a crashing bore with all this legal mumbo jumbo. Hope it wont be necessary after all.

Cheers
N

Hi Nick,

So why do they say that women drop their standard of living by up to 50% by divorcing? My solicitor estimated that I would be able to get approx 60% of the assets because of the children but I worked out that H would still do very nicely thankyou as a single man on his salary. Maintenance is 25% of his net monthly salary.

You could presumably make her an offer re housing, I am sure it shouldn't have to be in a specific location? You'd pay private school fees anyway.

May be I'd better see your solicitor Nick, sounds like I could get a far better deal!!!!
(joking...)

Seriously. Take one step at a time. Let her file if she's going to. Find somewhere to live-I think it's time you were not so directly having to deal with her. Last ditch Plan B-you've not done anything like it yet.

Sounds like you could manage with residency of your D-have you considered it?

Positive vibes coming your way in spades.....

Deluded

nick,

I agree with Deluded,let her filed and let see what she has on her hand. Actually, in CA the law is not much different. I moved to Redwood City since the school district is much better. My young one tries to go to charter public school for gifted kids (high IQ) and the old one will go to public high school that offers high school/AA degree for high achivers. I planned it well. Also I lost my job, I put myself to it since I don't want to give her rediculous money and spend it with OM (4K+/months). Let put it this way, right now I try "very hard" to get a job <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> . I wait until she put on the table her demand and after next month she receives no $.

Focus on something ... I did focus on counseling courses, my 2 D and take it day by day. I know I am put into this path for a reason. I know I become much better mate and see the world differently.

-rh-

<small>[ April 16, 2003, 02:02 PM: Message edited by: redhat ]</small>

Deluded - Even with me losing all, her standard will be lower too. The allowance will be 1-1.5k, whilst now she blows easily through 2k a month (and that doesn&#8217;t include insurances, utilities, council tax and the like). Heart breaking, this lowering of standard of living, isn't it. What do you mean with 'residency' of daughter? I mean, I could provide for her & live with her, but it would mean quite some changes - for a start, I'd probably need a different, less time-consuming job, and I would need a nanny or something. Oh yeah, and someone to look after the daughter too. :-)

Redhat - your write

"Also I lost my job, I put myself to it since I don't want to give her rediculous money and spend it with OM (4K+/months). Let put it this way, right now I try "very hard" to get a job. I wait until she put on the table her demand and after next month she receives no $."

I fully understand. That's exactly the reason why I want to settle once for all instead of a monthly reminder, nay, a daily reminder thinking that whatever you work until 1300 will go straight into her/OM pocket&#8230;. Otherwise you run the risk of being emotionally held back & tied down like you seem to be&#8230;. Don&#8217;t get me wrong, but *not* finding a job because it might benefit her/OM is, of course, tampering with your freedom and will to move on and pursue happiness, or do I get the wrong end of the stick here?

In terms of plan B / Divorce/ Who to initiate etc etc my plan is still unchanged. I will ask for a separation, with the help of my/her solicitor, to nail down a legally correct split of assets, hammer out a maintenance/custody agreement *unless* something in her snaps now and she comes around. We are seeing MC tomorrow, and over Easter break I will initiate R-talks. The moment we physically separate, I will lower the shutter, close the hatches and go to plan B. If she then wants to file, that's up to her. After a separation, she could file after 2 years (with my consent) or after 5 years (no consent needed). Alternatively, she might straight away file by claiming 'unreasonable behaviour' or adultery (on my part) shall I have a girl friend at that time ;-)

Regards from sunny London,
N