This may sound odd for me to ask this at this time, but another person's thread here got me thinking.

Once I heard a psychologist say (on the radio, mind you) that any person would lash out if antagonized enough. Having heard that, I ignored what happened a few times with my then husband.

Twice during my marriage, my now exH pushed/shoved me. One time was actually a small shove on the shoulder when we were in public. He was annoyed with me, for expressing my opinion. He shoved me as we walked through an amusement park. I don't think anyone saw it.

Another time was far worse. We were arguing in our bedroom, and he went to leave the room. That to me was frustrating, as he always 'escaped' discussions. I walked over and tried to 'block' the doorway area. I said, "You need to stay and finish talking about this." He grabbed me--and shoved me about 12 feet across the room, and pushed me onto the bed. It was terrifying, to say the least. I can still picture the feeling I had during the second shoving time. The first shoving incident in public happened in 1994, and the second one was in 1996. This was long before I had an A.

If exH had been a physically large person, I probably would have been injured. He and I are close to the same height and size. Furthermore, at that time I didn't have a career, so I didn't even consider leaving him.

I've never shared these shoving incidents with a
single soul in my life. My exH is such a nice person, and so pleasant appearing- no one would believe it. I never felt it would be right to tell anyone. The children weren't home when this happened, thank goodness.

I rather blamed myself, for being a difficult person. Maybe this comes as an offshoot of having grown up in a home where my father was a bit abusive towards my mother off and on, and towards my siblings, as well.

This is long winded--but I merely want to know. Most of you are in long term relationships, or have been in your lifetime. I think I already know the answer to my question--but tell me, is this sort of behavior ever acceptable in a marriage? What should I have done, when this second shoving incident happened? Would any of you have put up with it? ExH did apologize, and it didn't happen again.

Do you agree with the psychologist on the radio, that said, "Anyone will lash out if antagonized. Everyone has thrown something or done something physical in anger!" Do you agree?

I truly appreciate ALL of your insight and thoughts.

I am not mentioning this to justify my affair, or subsequent divorce. This is just a subject that I don't care to discuss with anyone, as I still feel loyal towards my exH and wouldn't want to say anything unkind about him to anyone. I still view him as a fine person, and I forgave those two incidents. I'm sure it wouldn't have happened anymore.

Thanks for your input,
H_P

Married 1981
3 children
me-WS
EA began '98
PA began '99
Separated 2000
Ended A 2002
Divorce Final August 2002

H_P,

I think you got to see something you didn't like and are not sure what to do with it. I will offer my non-PC view of this for your consideration. Men are physical by nature, at least that is my feeling about myself and other males. We like touch, we like to settle things in a physical way if possible, and we really like the physcial aspects of sex, it is how we connect.

As a kid some of my best friends I met in fights, yup fights with them. Out of those fights came repect for one another etc.

Frankly, I know for myself and other men I know, that when confronted my first response is physcial, at least internally. I have learned to control those feelings and do so, as do most men. But when really frustrated by something, those thoughts come back. Nothing clears the air like a physical confrontation. Unfortunately or fortunately <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> , it is not acceptable except in sports and war. So it is an inner effort to control ones basic instincts.

Now you said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Another time was far worse. We were arguing in our bedroom, and he went to leave the room. That to me was frustrating, as he always 'escaped' discussions. I walked over and tried to 'block' the doorway area. I said, "You need to stay and finish talking about this." He grabbed me--and shoved me about 12 feet across the room, and pushed me onto the bed. It was terrifying, to say the least. I can still picture the feeling I had during the second shoving time. The first shoving incident in public happened in 1994, and the second one was in 1996. This was long before I had an A.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">H_P by blocking the door you brought the arguement from a verbal one to a physical one. I will say if I am attacked by male or female, I feel that all restraints are off in my response and it WILL be physical. Just my thinking. I will do what it takes to end the confrontation.

Now your H did that, he shoved you on to your bed and he left I take it. He didn't attack you, he didn't hit you, he removed you from the door. He did it physically and I am sure you saw something in his eyes you really hadn't seen before. People tell me when I get really mad about something that they think I will attack them, and I ask why would you think that given I hadn't said a word YET, nor had I done anything else. The answer is the eyes show what is going on inside.

My point, control does not mean it isn't there. Just as men cannot understand many things about women, this is something that women don't understand and I cannot explain properly. My description makes it sound as if I am always ready to blow. That is not it. It is the fight or flight reponse. It is fast and it is strong, and men being much stronger than most women and more attuned to physical interaction, it does show up.

I am NOT excusing physical abuse. I am saying you made the interaction physical by physically barring the door, and you got a physical response. But you did NOT get attacked did you? He did what he needed to do and left through the door you had not allowed him to use.

Now let me put this on a different plane for you to consider. I suspect, in fact I know, you are far more verbal and adroit with language than your H. So if you kept him trapped there in the room, he was at a huge disadvantage. Just as if he resorts to a physical response you are at a huge disadvantage. Who gets the call here? You see most men have been trained to "walk away" when they get really angry especially where women are involved, but you gave him no avenue of escape.

This is not to blame you, but I have learned in my life cornering people: professionally, verbally, physically, socially, in anyway is a very dangerous thing to do and one had better expect to fight in some manner or another if one corners another person. Hence, I never threaten, and I never corner someone, I always give them an out. Otherwise, I may be forced to do something I don't want to do or regret later.

I think you cornered your H and you got a fairly predictable response.

I am not sure why this is bothering you now. Perhaps it is the cateloging of the things that are not good about your ex, so that you can move on. My personal take on this is learn from it.

Learn if you corner someone they will often respond and not favorably. Also if you do something physical you are likely to get a physical reponse particularly from men.

I will leave it to others to debate the he shoulda, she shoulda, etc. It seems to me you got a predictable response to a heated situation that turned physical with you barring the door. He was going to remove you from the door and he did. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Hope this helps a little.

God Bless,

JL

<small>[ April 13, 2003, 02:54 PM: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</small>

Thanks for replying, JL!

I only brought it up as I'd read on someone else's thread about their soon to be exH having once been rough with her. I thought I'd use this forum to get opinions on what happened to me only as it's anonymous here!

I only want to say this, JL. First, I grew up with three brothers, no sisters. I tend to have girlfriends who had the same sort of family background (only girl amongst many boys), as perhaps I think more 'male' than many other girls. I have the same 'bent' towards physical solutions to all kinds of problems. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I understand your point completely. That's why I brought it up here! I do think though that by my attempting to block the doorway area (not the door...just the general area) it wasn't quite physical in the same way he shoved me across the room. If I'd have been a less athletic type, I would have been injured by his actions.

No, my bringing it up is not a cataloging of what's 'not good' about my exH. I still love him deeply and would love to be with him again.

It was just to get opinions on this whole type of issue/situation in a marriage.

I truly value your in put, and yes..I did learn from this experience.

H_P

HP - I should imagine that your XH probably learned from the two encounters as well. I should certainly hope he did and as it never happened again he almost certainly did.

He probably scared himself stupid wondering what he might have done if - as you have wondered - the physical differences between you had been greater.

I think JL is right. It is inside us all - I have never once been involved in a fight and yet just a few weeks ago I came very, very close to hitting an old friend who made a completely out of line, hurtful and disrespectful comment to my W. If it hadn't have been for the table between us I truly believe I would have hit him.

And that thought scared me enormously. I am not and have never been a violent person. I abbhor violence but it is inside me as it is with all people.

Edited to say that clearly I am completely against putting up with ongoing or serious abuse - mental or phsical. The perpetrator needs help and if they will not get it and work on their issues then those affected must remove themselves for their own safety.

PS. friend apologised genuinely to W and me about 5 minutes later, having wisely allowed us time to simmer down away from him.

<small>[ April 13, 2003, 03:46 PM: Message edited by: bowd ]</small>

H_P - I guess it was my thread that you were referring to. I understand about wanting to protect those we love. Until recently, I have never shared with people on these boards about that side of my M. I still feel bad in some ways that I have, but sometimes we need to take a closer look at things that have happened in our lives so that we can put them away completely.

I will of course have a different take on this because a) I am a woman and b) I have been in situations myself so I can relate to how you felt about these 2 occassions.

After my H hit me (6 weeks before we married and the only time that he actually hit me), a friend of mine said "Well, it's no big deal really, because you know these sort of things happen between some people". How very wrong she was. These sort of things don't happen between most people.

I understand what JL was saying about the physical aspect of being cornered, but if he had done that to you, would you have thrown him across the room? Of course, the answer is no, and for that reason his behaviour is unacceptable to you and tantamount to a form of abuse - albeit that it only happened twice in many many years.

I know that some people if they had been in my shoes would not have perhaps accepted the things that I did, but we are all different and we all deal with things in a different way. For you, you accepted it at the time, but now query whether that was right or not. I think the bottom line is, if you feel it is not right, then it isn't. It's a bit like here when people ask what constitutes an EA. The answer often given is that if it makes you uncomfortable and is not how you want your spouse to behave, than well, that's it. Does that make sense?

I hope this is useful to you.

Lisa

H

<small>[ April 14, 2003, 08:26 AM: Message edited by: broken heart and arm ]</small>

H-P hi,

JL's advice is sound.

My take on this is that you persist in trying to persaude yourself of things that show you in a good light. eg "It's his loss by not coming back to me"

H-P you got to remember that you have had 2 long term relationships with men that are both now living presumably happily without you. Before you start another relationship I strongly advise you to go to an IC. You have issues with total honesty and you seem to be controlling.

Your exh was not the abuser in your marriage.
The mind games you played with him would have caused many men to physically maim you. It is to his credit that he did not.

H_P-

This is a interesting subject to me because it's one of those topics that most everyone has experience with in some form or fashion. I should point out that I grew up with several younger and older sisters very close to me in age. And we had more than our share of fights, arguments, etc. With that said, I've come to the conclusion that there are very few circumstances that can justify a man being physical with a women, some of those being fear for personal safety, families safety, welfare of others, etc.

IMO, you blocking the doorway was not a reason for your XH to get pushy, he could've left the room without doing it...I was with my XW for 12 years and during that time she punched me around the arms and chest on a couple of occasins in anger (and it hurt, she's strong!) but I never considered being forceful back. JL mentioned fight or flight and flight was always the more desirable option because of what it would do to ME if I lost my temper with a women. In all honesty, my opinion might be different if I'd ever felt truly threatened by a female but I haven't. And something I'm not proud of is that in my late teens I was involved in #'s of fights with other guys so it's not like I've always been Mr. Self Control...Hmmmm

<small>[ April 14, 2003, 07:17 AM: Message edited by: litchfield ]</small>

Well I disagree that blocking IS NOT a justification for him pushing you. Everyone is entitled to freedom of movement. To prevent that legally constitutes false imprisonment. NOW that's a huge stretch and probably would hold up in court but he is justified in doing whatever it takes to preserve his right to freedom of movement.

Put it on your shoe. Suppose your spouse wanted to have sex but you did not. But he tried to keep you from getting up from the bed or getting out of whatever situation where you could avoid his advances. Technically he is guilty of sexual assault for refusing to let you out of a sexual situation you did not want to be in. Again very thin and a huge stretch but my point is he has the right to not remain in a situation he doesn't want to and you have no right to try and force to remain in it.

Now pushing you because he was annoyed is a whole nother story. But we don't have the whole picture like were you arguing and he wanted to get away. Were you in his face and that was why he was annoyed. Had he already asked you to leave him alone.

Here's my opinion--

Was your husband a typical abuser? No. He briefly lost control of himself.

Is this acceptable? Not to me. IMO any adult that lacks self-control to the point that they can push someone around during a vocal argument is not someone I would stay with.

IMO, the only time "getting physical", whether it be pushing, shoving, slapping, punching, pulling hair, etc. is justifiable and acceptable is if it is self defense, or the one on the receiving end is a clear and present threat to your person (or your kids). An argument is NO justification for it. And IMO, neither is having someone stand in your way of leaving.

That being said, I also agree that everyone has the potential to get physical. My first marriage was violent. My exH was abusive, and on a few occasions I fought back. I think it's all about self-control. He made the choice to hit me--I chose to hit back. It felt good to fight back, but I hated allowing myself to drop down to that level. Eventually I got out, and it was the best decision of my life.

As a sidenote--I don't think it's ever a good idea to just storm out of the house mad. The way H and I choose to resolve an argument is first, to not let it get that heated. If it does (and it happens once in a while) then we respect each other's need to be alone and cool off. But we do it by going into another room, or out in the yard. Neither of us leaves home in that sort of emotional state.