Having to rewrite the whole of this post as my PC just lost it [tip: don't forget to put a subject in when you click on "add new topic" because it won't post and when it asks you to click on back it will have lost your post] Doh - [censored] me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

right - second time lucky.

I haven't posted an update for ages as I haven't really had any formulated questions but right now I could use some advice and some virtual shoulders to lean on.

My W and I have decided to keep the OC and raise it as our own. We talked a lot through the various options from termination onwards. We have been trying for a child for 4 years and I was very against a termination because I felt that the mental trauma would sound a certain death knell for any hopes of rebuilding our M. Plus I can honestly say I will love the OC as if it were my own - I would love an adopted child just as much too. Obviously it is not quite the route I had envisaged but hey that is life. Plus given my wife's age and our fertility challenges it would be unlikely that she would get another chance.

We have talked through whether to tell OM and my W had decided that she does not want to. The primary reason is that she does not want him to be involved in bringing up the child. She feels it would be unfair to tell him that he is a father whilst telling him she does not want him to be involved in any way. He is very young and it would change the whole course of his life. She had already decided that he was not the person that she wanted to spend the rest of her life with and had finished the A with him.

She then asked me if I would be the child's father. I told her that if she really meant it I would be honoured. We now refer to the OC as "our" child. And s/he is. However my W has still not recomitted to our M - and although I have hopes that she will, they are just that hopes.

But what I have realised is that I don't simply want a child. I want a family. Not a half family where we do everything together but live 5 minutes apart - all three of us deserve better than that.

I understand that my W is nervous about trying again. We are both aware that trying to rebuild our M at the same time as having a baby is going to be triply tough. She does not want me to think that she has simply come back to me because we are having a baby. And yet our child is precisely the reason that we should be trying to work on our M.

What I am struggling with at the moment is how to tell my W all of my fears, concerns and thoughts without her thinking I am going back on my word to be a father. I don't want that - I want to be the best father I can be.

My wife is abroad working at the moment and I want to get my head together before she returns so that I can best explain to her what I want. Of course I have to know first and be clear to stand any chance of explaining. Hence my need for help.

Thoughts and concerns are:
</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">1. I want to at least try and be a proper family.</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2. Neither of us wants to go back to our M as it was. However a child will make it all too easy to "slip" back into it - ie. not enough time to work on us.</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">3. I feel that if we are to seriously try we need to find a decent councellor. My W has always been against councelling. How do I show her that we need as much help as we can get?
  Also (for UK folk) how do we find a good (MB friendly) MC? I have used the Harleys and although fantastic I want somone I can see face to face for regular ongoing support. I read a Relate book on affairs and to be honest found it trite & hackneyed. Are all Relate councellors going to be the same?</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">4. My wife is still not convinced that NC is neccesary. Obviously given that she does not want OM to know about her pregnancy she can not see him but (she has told me when I have asked) she is still having occasional phone conversations with him.</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">5. OM told W when she finished the A that he would not try and change her mind. But prior to this he had been thinking of moving to the UK/Europe to work. What if he does and finds out about our child? He wouldn't have to be a genius to work out he was the bio-father. What then?</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">6. I am worried that both W and I are getting "used" to this half relationship where we do everything together except live together. I don't want to get "used" to it. I want a whole relationship.</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">7. I have had enough of my job - despite loving the company that I co-founded 3 years ago, I am tired of the effort and I am concerned that this will impact on our chances of rebuilding our M.</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">8. Right now I am so busy trying to finish the rebuilding of "our" house. I love doing it yet I wonder whether I will ever get to live in the family home we planned.</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And how do I put all these across without them sounding like ultimatums? They really aren't ultimatums as I honestly don't know what I will do if she does not agree on any points. I imagine I will try and negotiate on them as I am basically a conflict avoider. My W knows this and one of her fears is that I will end up compromising on what I feel in order to get what I want - and then sometime down the line end up regretting this compromise. This worries me too. I really don't want that to happen - it would be waste of everyone's time and cause even more heartache.
But I feel it is time to "sh17 or get off the pot". I love this woman with all my being. I want to spend the rest of my life with her and our child in a full and happy M. At the very least I want a chance to try = and I want to make sure that we give ourselves every chance to succeed. And we now have a timeframe. We need to sort out what we are doing, our plan - I believe - before our child is born. We owe that to him or her.

What I really don't want is half a life. It will do all us more harm than good.

I know that I have not had much time to respond and help out other posters on here much recently but all and any thoughts, advice and questions greatly received.

TIA
bowd

Bowd,

I read your thread and thought "Uh Oh! This isn't good."

It seems to me you can only be the childs father IF you are your W's H. Otherwise, you are just a friend who baby sits while she is off traveling and meeting this OM or another.

I think her concerns about you changing your mind are valid given how little she seems to be willing to throw into the pot. I don't think living apart and you ACTING like the father is good: for you or the child. I do think it meets her need to have an instant baby sitter and financial support so that she can do what she wants.

It seems to me your concerns are well founded and if nothing changes you can plan on getting shafted big time. I mean emotionally, financially, and out of much of your life.

It is time to really talk to her. If she cannot commit, then you really have no choice in my mind. You must not be this child's father, because she will and very likely will yank him/her out of your arms for another man soon enough.

I don't know the laws in UK, but please check them out carefully before making such a commitment. In the US some really strange decisions get handed down about children, support, and visitation. Really strange. Your situation has the potential for such a strange decision.

Good Luck,

JL

Thanks JL. Your thoughts are always well founded.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I do think it meets her need to have an instant baby sitter and financial support so that she can do what she wants. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think it is more than this. Of course I would want to think this but i will explain why.

W did not get to see her father at all between age (approx) 11 and 16. He was an active alcoholic (dry since she was around 13) and violent towards her mother - strangely when he wasn't drinking.

W does not want a child that grows up without a father - she knows what it was like. This is actually one of the things that makes me hopeful that she will recommit to our M.

But of course I have and do still worry - not that she only wants a sitter and financial support - her earning power is greater than mine <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> - but that she wants a father and not a husband.

Hi Bowd,
You already know about POJA, what it is, how it works.

It is plain to most of us that we need to come to agreement to make things work as they should. It is not always plain that if we can't come to an agreement that we don't do anything. That means that if you can't agree then you won't be the father of the child, and you won't be her H. At least, it would mean that to me. It would mean that if she can't break contact with OM, than you won't be there either. I can't see you ever giving enthusiastic support to continued contact. If she can't or won't break things off with him, then how could you ever give enthusiastic support to being with her and being the father of the child.

I can't answer some of your questions. I believe the newsletter once had info on finding a counselor, and it may be in the basic info on the main part of the site.

I do believe that you are looking for an good way, or an easy way to do something that will always be difficult, and that there is no good way to do. You will just have to tell her what you can live with, and let her choose.

You may want to write her a letter and explain your feelings and make the points you made for us. Tell her that you want to make sure you both understand things the same way. Tell her that you are willing to be the father, and want to be the father but only if you are a family, and that you are not willing to be an father separate from being her H.

Tell her that you feel that no contact is necessary, and tell her why ( if not, he will someday find out about the child, and you don't want to be in the middle of that.) In other words, why create all those problems for all of you, most of all the child, just because she wants to continue to be friends to him. If she really cares about the child, it is the only way.

Make it about your feelings, not about what she has to do for you. That is, explain that you can't handle being the child's father and all that goes with it if you are not married to her as you do it. You are not able to do this emotionally. So, if she chooses another way, you will not be able to help. Also, you can be her husband if she can commit 100% to you, but if she chooses to stay friends with him and continue contact, you won't be able to cope with that, so it wouldn't' work for you. Make it clear that she can choose what she wants, but you couldn't handle it emotionally, so you won't try to do it that way.

If you could begin counseling right away, if she would agree to N/C and if you could live together again, I believe she would find feelings of love returning.

Why would you be willing to commit to someone that is not willing to commit to you? That would be very one sided. All you are asking for is a partner ship, commonly knows as a marriage. If SHE doesn't want that, I would run away as fast as you can.

Again, if you have to, write it all down, and send it to her. Then you could edit it for clarity and make sure it says what you want it to say so she will understand your feelings, and what you will and will not do .

If you do it face to face, write down your main points and make sure she understands each one before you finish.

Bowd, I hope this works for you, but DON'T accept things you can't live with. If is not a selfish demand to make it clear what you can do, and what you can't do. There may not be a good way to tell her these things, but you have to do it.

( Later Edit)
BTW, I am glad to see you back, I was wondering how you were doing.
SS

<small>[ April 13, 2003, 04:00 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

I am sorry but I am a bit confused. She wants you to be legally the father of this OC. She does not believe in No Contact and she has not recommitted to the marriage. I will try to be delicate here.
Are you out of your mind? If you accept this obligation then will you not be financially responsible for this child whether she meets someone else and leaves down the line for the next 18 years?
You feel honored that she asked you to be the father of this OC although she is not committed to your marriage and refuses to have no contact with the OM? Please Please before you do or sign anything contact an attorney immediately. Think about whether you wish to be financially responsbile for this child for the next 18 years whether your wife leaves you for someone else?
Please see an attorney to understand your rights and obligations. I am afraid your wife is not the only one in a fog. I wish you luck.

Hi Still Seeking,

thanks for stopping by to help me out.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Tell her that you are willing to be the father, and want to be the father but only if you are a family, and that you are not willing to be an father separate from being her H.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My trouble right now is that I do not know if that is the case. I want to be a family rather than just a father but if I can't be a family am I prepared to be a father seperately?

I love this child so very much already that considering not being a father to him or her is tough right now. But consider it I must.

However I do not want to present it to my W as an ultimatum because it is not an ultimatum.

I need to understand what her feelings are on the subject of family vs fatherhood before I can decide what I am willing to accept. At that point if we can not reach a solution that we are both 100% committed to then I guess it becomes an either / or situation.

Does that make sense to you?

I think at times when I post it seems like I am saying my W has refused to move forward in respect of our M at all. It is not meant to sound like that as we have both come a long, long way. We have talked a lot and she has opened up and been open to suggestions and discussion and really trying to brainstorm our whoe relationship and M. This from a stage this time last year when she felt I was invading her privacy if I asked her what she thought on a subject that was in any way connected to our M. Another reason why I am hopeful for more developments.

I guess the key is that I have so far let things develop naturally and at the pace that she has been confortable with on the basis that forcing someone else to do something doesn't work out usually. But we now have a timeframe as i said and so - in a way - we have to address the issues pretty soon. We can no longer wait until we are ready to do so.

You know - just writing this all down helps me think it through - and that is before all the helpful advice <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Hey Bryanp,

our posts must have crossed.

Like I just said: I sometimes make it sound like my W has not altered her behaviour at all. She has.

She understands (I believe) that to work on our M she needs to have NC. She has yet to make that final commitment. Why? She is not one to take such things lightly. I know that sounds odd considering many on here might say she took her marriage vows lightly.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Think about whether you wish to be financially responsbile for this child for the next 18 years whether your wife leaves you for someone else?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We have talked about this a lot. My wife is very concerned that if we try again and it does not work out I will come to resent having financial obligations towards a child that is not biologically mine. And of course I can not honestly answer that as I am not yet in that situation. It is just another one of the reasons that I feel we need to give our M all the help it can get if we are going to try and carry on working things out. As an aside in the UK though I am considered the father unless we state otherwise.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are you out of your mind? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LOL!
Who knows?! I just know that I am not prepared to walk away until I have thought through every option, explored every avenue and done everything that is within my capability - without destroying my love.

That's why I'm posting here - and your words are appreciated.

Hi Bowd

I don't really know what to say, but I tend to agree with the others. You need to think really carefully about what commitment you make to your W and child.

I think SS is right about perhaps writing it all down. I also think perhaps you should take some legal advice. Sometimes it helps to seperate the practical from the emotional.

I understand too what you said on my thread now that I have read yours. I don't think your conditions are unreasonable and in fact, if you are to commit to her, it makes perfect sense that you get some commitment back. You need to know that she is willing to try.

Keep us posted, and wishing you well from London.

Lisa

Hi Bowd,

Wow what a situation to be in.

It seems to me that you have an ideal opportunity to be a little more forceful here than previously. She wants you to be the OC's father. Yes it is a great honour. It is also a huge responsibility-and one that may be taken away from you without your agreement at WW's whim should your M fail further down the track. If you are to love and care for this child it must be because you love and care for it's mother , and she you.

I think what I am leading up to is this-MC is not such a big deal given this situation. If she had a broken leg she'd see a Dr right? So if she has a sick marriage why not see a marriage Dr? And if she doesn't want to, she is still focussing on her. Having kids of your own is hard enough without doing it in your situation. And there is the baby to think of. I don't think it is an LB but essential to do this with her now.
Re MC in the UK-I agree about Relate. I am seeing a psychotherapist who is a licensed couples therapist. I see her alone, unfortunately, as H won't go. I would start with the phone book in your area and just phone a few who are qualified-it wouldn't break the bank to see them for a trial session also, although you can prob get a good idea from speaking to them on the phone.

Good luck.

Deluded

Thanks Lisa and Deluded. Think I need to go to bed and digest all the advice so far.

D -
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am seeing a psychotherapist who is a licensed couples therapist </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">what / who licenses them? I ask as presumably the licencers would be a good place to start looking as well?

You seem like such a decent chap and I do wish you the best which is why I am encouraging you to seek out an attorney for advice concerning your obligations and responsibilities.
What do we know so far:
We know that your wife went behind your back during your marriage and engaged in prolonged unprotected sex with a very young man putting your health at risk and confessed to you when she found out she was pregnant. She refuses to recommit to the marriage and refuses no contact with the young father. She wishes you to take over the financial obligations of this child for the next 18 years without any firm committment to you. Generally past behavior is a good predictor or future behavior. What happens in the future if and when she decides to leave and find someone else? Say you meet someone else in the future and now you have this hugh financial obligation and it is burden to your new wife and family.
I guess what I am saying is that she has a lot of
nerve to ask you to take on such a financial and emotionally responsibility without committments on her side. We are talking about the next 18 years. She is still in contact with OM. What kind of message is that to you and the fact she tells you that she is not committed to the marriage and wonders if you will be angry that you will have to pay for the next 18 years even if she decides to leave? There is a special woman out there who deserves you. Unfortunately it does not sound like your wife. I think you are too kind and honorable. I pray that you protect youself and your heart and assets. This feels like a disaster waiting to happen. You risk everything and she risks nothing. Good luck and see an attorney and protect yourself.

Bowd
I am going to take the childs prospective first.... the child grows up loving you.. wham.. the bio father re-enters the picture.. how confused is that child going to be? I can only imagine a huge mess will persue.

You sign the birth certificate.. your now legally responsible even though knowing you are not the bio father, no matter what happens becasue you had fair notice, you will always be responsible finacially... it will take many expensive moves through the courts and even then it may not be overturned. That includes a stat dec if you chose that path. The worst about that is your w could end up back with om and YOU supporting them.

I am one that is going to say... The bio father has a right to know.. it is his child too. I am sorry but morally he has every right to chose if he will or wont be in the childs life.... and he is legally and primarily... responsible for the finacial support. Whether or not you like .. The child is his. He needs to make those choices, making them for him can only bring a lot of what.. if's in the future... and most of those I can only predict as being negatives.

I should say too , is it fair the child is not given a chance to be loved by her/his father?

I can only suggest to you , see a family court lawyer ASAP for advice on what measures you should take to protect yourself and obviously the child through this. I do wish yo well , your not in a good place right now.

bryanp and dinotopia - thanks for the thoughts and comments. I'm just processing everything right now and interested in all / any thoughts.

Anyone else?

Bowd,
I think most here are just worried about you. We don't want you to get hurt all over again. We don't know your W, and we can't see the improvements and we can't see how much closer you are than before. When you came home from your trip you seemed to see progress but there were some big questions ( she didn't "fancy" you then) and so we worry.

Remember that there is a difference between boundries and ultimatums. To the WS they often look the same. After reading your post, I don't think you have a problem with it. It does sound like you understand and will protect yourself.

I need to understand what her feelings are on the subject of family vs fatherhood before I can decide what I am willing to accept. At that point if we can not reach a solution that we are both 100% committed to then I guess it becomes an either / or situation.

From reading this part, it does not sound like you have addressed this directly with her. Or at least, she is still thinking about it. What I mean is that it doesn't sound like you have said plainly what you will accept, and won't accept. It doesn't sound like you have had a hard talk with her about what is going to happen, you seem to be just letting things go along and you get in a few words when you can.

Does that make sense to you?
It does make sense. Remember that we see things from a neutral point of view. Or perhaps we see things mostly from your side. We don't know what problems she had with you, or what you have done to meet her needs since then. We kind of assume that you have done your part and that she is still not committed. Hence our advice is mostly to protect you from further harm.

I think you are on the right track with your list, you already know most of what you want to do and that is why you haven't posted for a while.

Well, I sometimes go on and on, I'll quit. I really hope this works for you.

SS

<small>[ April 14, 2003, 05:17 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

BOWD -

You should check out the pregnancy forum. There are men who have successfully adopted their wife's kid by another man, but to the best of my knowledge all of them already had kids of their own.

It would appear that what you are trying to accomplish is difficult. Not impossible, mind you, but certainly not easy. I would guess that the Harleys would insist on NC for this to even have a chance of working out.

I'm going to link to this thread from the pregnancy forum and see who turns up. (Unlike me, some of the people over there have actual experience with this sort of thing, and KNOW WHAT THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

Its not just 18 years of child support anymore, the courts can have you paying until the "child" is 21 years of age and you most likely would be ordered to pay a substantial amount for college, medical, dental, daycare etc. all above and beyond child support. It goes on and on.

You really need to think long and hard about this, you are ready to put your life into this and she is not. She seems ready to make you financially responsible but yet gives you no certainty in return.

What happens when and if your marriage doesn't survive? She takes the child, see above for financial obligation, and you'll could be relegated to every other weekend, if that. Heck, she could fight that if you really make her mad.

This situation scares me for you.

Bowd,

I know that you are looking for input from other's who have been in your shoes from the P/C board. Unfortunately, even though my H is raising the OC, we had other children before I became P by xOM. Also, we never seperated, and pretty much decided at the time we found out that we would raise Abbi as OURS. I wish that I could offer you more advice than what you've already recieved, but I really don't know what to say. I hope that more offer advice for you soon!

Tigger