Space,

I have been here along time, almost 2 years. (july) (Affair 1 begain) I can't seem to go to plan S, ( or D) How did you do it. Do you just do it or do you talk about it first??? I so want to go there. Just don't know where to start.

Difficult question.... as someone with a d-day of 13 months ago, I might be in the same position as you.
Yet, I think things have changed sufficiently that a big change is not far ahead - to which direction is still unknown. But, I came to the realisation that WW cant take a decision, if not forced. It's just too cosy and convenient to hang on, let another month pass by, then another etc. Now, I realised that I am the victim of this process (she herself is another victim, as she cant describe the current state as being happy), so I have to do something to break out, to force an outcome one way or another.
The key difference is, that now I'm not afraid anymore to lose her. I realised that *any* outcome is better than the current status quo - be it together or with someone else. A couple of months back, I was afraid. Not anymore.

Nick

notgoingtodothis- only you decide ultimately what is best for you... I can only tell my experience in this situation - I could not live in limbo land - I lost all self esteem and really was a complete basket case living day to day wondering if he really wanted to be there or be somewhere else... I saw what this situation was doing to my girls and made the decision that enough was enough - the emotional rollercoaster was taking a toll on all of us - We are now divorced - it is not easy trying to move forward - it still is a day to day struggle but I know in my heart someday that he will realize all that he has lost and all that I have gained. And hopefully I will find a special love again - someone that wants me for me.... So you need to do some heavy soul searching - you would be amazed at what you are capable of doing on your own... You don't need someone - you have yourself... Do you have any kids??? Is this affecting them????

Nick,
thanks for the quick reply. I am angry a lot. ok two much information but the other night WH wanted S** i blew a gasket. I am so calm most of the time but inside, i fantisize about telling him off, I am not sure i even like him, much less love him at this point. I waited to long to plan b. I don't know how to start this conversation with him but i have to.

Maw,

Yes i have two kids and of course my little girl is clueless but my 10 year old son said the other day. I don't want you and Dad to get a divorce. ( came up when i caught him lying at his fathers unspoken request, putting him in the middle) I know i can't live like this forever. I have drafted so many plan B letters, i dont even respect myself, how do i expect him to respect me. really I feel like a loooooooooossssseeerrrr.
and im not i have a good job, i am a good mom, i try really hard not to LB, it just hasn't been enough. So i feel like it is time to move on but. I don't know how to start.

not:

I think Nick's got it. You have to not be afraid of losing the WS. I think it also helps that you don't have bad feelings toward them, too, but that's harder to do in a situation like yours.

I'm finding myself feeling less and less afraid of losing my W, though I will freely admit that I still have some fear there. But thankfully I don't think I have to go there, at least not anytime soon, and not unless we can't find a point to begin REAL progress together. We're in sort of a stagnation point, like we all seem to go through, but we're enjoying each others' company while there, at least.

But the need to get to a point where one isn't afraid of losing the WS remains (detachment), whether the M survives or not. Simply because it's healthy to detach, or end what David Schnarch calls "emotional fusion" - where the partners have given up their independence for the other (to an unhealthy degree).

I'm still working on that.
-Qfwfq

NGTDT:
I'm sorry...I just saw this now and I'm dead tired. But I'll be back tomorrow with some thoughts.

All my love!

NGTDT;

I am sorry you are hurting so; I know exactly how you feel and how frustrating it is.

I guess the short answer to "how do you do it?" is that we must find the way to break our emotional bond to the WS as soon as possible. It is only by doing this that we are able to think more clearly, and make decisions that are "real" and not based on emotion.

Easier said than done, I know. For me, the process was a long and painful one, but one which has allowed me to reach this point where I am now. I am in the final days (weeks) of our divorce, and I still love my W, and I still hope we can be together again someday. BUT, I am able to be true to myself, to know what I want, need, deserve, and not compromise on any of those.

I guess the first thing we must realize is that in the moment that the A started, our marriage was over. We may not have known it, which causes us confusion, but the marriage ended right then and there. Since we have to "catch up", if you will, the process is difficult. And since this was a decision made FOR us by the WS, without our participation or consent, it FEELS like that is not the case; it feels like the marriage is not over. But it is. This is something we must find a way to internalize, and accept. Once we do that, then the framework for our survival begins to take shape. But this is very important; we must truly begin to think, plan and "be" un-married.

It's like planning for a catastrophe. What would happen if you lost your job? or if your H died? or any other similar situation that would force you to make significant changes to your life? THAT is how we need to start thinking.

Now who's fault is it? Who's to blame? NOBODY. This is a life event that happens, like any other, like an act of G-d, like an accident...placing blame and fault only serves one purpose: to become a victim, and to escape our responsibility to ourselves and our children from finding solutions. Oh, it may make our ego feel good, to say "he's an SOB!", or she's a B****!", but it serves no purpose except to distract us from the inevitable: that we must find a way to survive and be happy without them, that we must find a way to being whole again.

For me, this started coming in the form of forgiveness. Forgiveness is an often mis-used word. This does not mean we condone what has happened, or the behavior, or that we take alll the blame. Forgiveness is realizing one undeniable truth: that everyone is doing the best that they can do at any given moment with what they have and what they are. Simple as that. If you believe that your H did this "to hurt you", then you should have left him the minute it happened. But I bet he didn't. And I bet you know that.

Once you begin to accept that he, like you, was doing the best he could with what he has, the next step is to begin to understand that he, like you, has the absolute and complete right to do what he wants to do. As YOU do. You cannot tell him what to do, feel, think...as he cannot do to you. We'd sure LIKE to influence this...but we cannot. We want this right for ourselves, and we must accept that if we deserve it for ourselves, everyone deserves it as well. We may not like everything they do, as they don't like everything WE do, but we both have that right. It is the "Law of Choice". And that law states simply that everyone always has the freedom to make his or her own choices, and that we have no right to interfere in those choices.

This does not mean that those choices may not have consequences. They do, as ALL choices do. But that does not mean they can't make those choices. Even if they are unaware of the possible consequences. We make choices like this every day...we don't know if there's an 18-wheeler barreling down out of control around the corner we're just turning into, do we? But we still turn...it may turn out to have been a bad choice to turn, but we were doing the best we could at that moment, and it seemed like a good choice to make the turn.

Yes, I know it feels like this is nonsense, that "HE HURT YOU", but he didn't hurt you. He made choices in his life that he felt were the right choices for him. And he didn't tell you about those choices to give you the oppotunity to make your own informed choices. But you know what? He has that right. AND YOU DO TOO.

So now we come to YOUR choices. You have choices. You can choose to be a victim, blame him for all your pain and all the hurt, hide behind that protective barrier, get angry and have your blood pressure rise, not sleep, cry, get angry, pout, and let his freinds and family know how much of an a-hole he is....which will get you exactly nothing except satisfaction for your ego.

Or you can choose to take back control of your feelings, your life, your happiness, survive this and thrive! It IS a choice you have.

Do you believe that "he made me feel X?"...nobody MAKES us feel anything. What WE feel is in OUR control, unless we choose to give that control up to others.

Why is it that when someone on the highway cuts you off some people get very upset and others don't? Because we each have a choice about how we "react" to the same action. And we react based on past experience, and on many other factors. But clearly this demonstrates that this driver who cut you off did not MAKE you feel anything...if he did, then how come different people he cut off take it differently? If he MADE you feel X, then everyone else shoudl also feel X, right...but HE did not MAKE you feel anything. You processed the action of being cut off differently from another driver, and elicited a different emotional response in reaction to it than the driver beside you...YOU CHOOSE how you feel. Unless, again, you just want to hand everyone around you the power to control your life completely.

Now. Do you choose to accept that what happened just happened? Or do you choose to let it rule your life from now on? It's your choice.

I chose to forgive. I chose to forgive my wife for what she did because I accept that she did what she thought was right for her, and she has the right to make that choice. So I forgave her. Once tat happened, I was "free"....to make MY choices.

Do I want to live with a person who does not love me? Do I want to live with a person who is not respectful of me? Do I want to live with a person who is not committed to me?

No. I don't. But it is my choice. And I have that choice.

Yes; it's hard, it hurts, I cry, sometimes I get angry, sometimes I feel despair...but I always come back to me. The me who has the right to be loved, respected, cared for. And if my W is not the person who does this for me, or if she's not the person I believe might one day do this for me...then it's my choice to move on.

You too have these same choices NGTDT. You just need to find that place inside of you where you know this. Look...search...feel...you can find that place. And it is a good place. A place where you take back your life, your feelings, your responsibility for yourself. And you cease to depend on others to provide you with these things. And you know what? you can love you H MUCH more from that place than from any other place you've ever been at before. But you can also walk away from him...even as you love him...and be just as happy and just as powerful as a person.

I hope that in some small way I may have been able to help. It's a long and hard road; but what you'll find at the end of it is precious beyond description. Have a little more faith in yourself and in what you have inside; because you, like all of us, are a worthy, beautiful being. And you are perfect just the way you are.

All my love!

<small>[ April 17, 2003, 12:24 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

Spacecase --- <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Well Said !!!!

Space,

First of all thank you for your thoughtful response. It is a lot to digest. Id have printed it off, and read it several times. I have started several times to respond, but all i can say is thank you for putting into words what i needed to hear. This is no longer about marriage but quality of life and health and happiness, and self respect. Its about accepting what is and going from there.

Space, THANK YOU

SC:

Yes, indeed. Well said!

NGTDT: When you're contemplating what SC has said, just remember this. Getting THERE is a long, slow, and sometimes painful process. I know. I am not as far along in finding the peace that SC describes, and I'm now 15 months past D-day. My W is also still in contact with her OM through work (he's in another state, though).

But I'm getting better at this healing process, and you can too. Just don't worry that you're not "where" you think you should be right now. It takes time.

All my best,
-Qfwfq

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by notgoingtodothis:
<strong>Space,

First of all thank you for your thoughtful response. It is a lot to digest. Id have printed it off, and read it several times. I have started several times to respond, but all i can say is thank you for putting into words what i needed to hear. This is no longer about marriage but quality of life and health and happiness, and self respect. Its about accepting what is and going from there.

Space, THANK YOU</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There is no need to "respond" NGTDT, I am only grateful to be able to help, as so many did for me, and continue to do for me.
Please feel free to ask, vent, email...it brings me great joy to return what so many have given me.
Namaste!

Here's a good, quick Forgiveness "process" guide I found recently:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Climbing the Pyramid of Forgiveness
Everett L. Worthington, Jr.

Walk with me up the Pyramid Model of Forgiveness. The steps spell out the acronym R-E-A-C-H. Think of a person who has hurt you and apply the steps to REACH forgiveness. If the wound is traumatic, you might want the support of a friend or counselor as you move up the steps.

Recall the Hurt. When we are hurt, we often try to protect ourselves by denying our hurt. We think, often correctly, that if we don't think about it, it won't bother us. But if unforgiveness keeps intruding into your happiness or gnawing ulcers in your gut, consider forgiving. Recall the hurt as objectively as possible. Don't rail against the person who hurt you, waste time wishing for an apology that will never be offered, or dwell on your victimization. Instead, admit that a wrong was done to you and set your sights on its repair.

Empathize. Empathy involves seeing things from another person's point of view, feeling that person's feelings, and identifying with the pressures that made the person hurt you. To empathize with your offender's experience, write a brief letter to yourself as if you were the other person. How would he or she explain the harmful acts?

Altruistic gift of forgiveness. Empathy can prepare you for forgiving, but to give that gift of forgiveness, consider yourself. Have you ever harmed or offended a friend, a parent, or a partner who later forgave you? Think about your guilt. Then consider the way you felt when you were forgiven. Most people say, "I felt free. The chains were broken." Forgiveness can unshackle people from their interpersonal guilt. By recalling your own guilt and the gratitude over being forgiven, you can develop the desire to give that gift of freedom to the person who hurt you.

Commit to forgive. When you forgive, you can eventually doubt that you have forgiven. When people remember a previous injury or offense, they often interpret it as evidence that they must not have forgiven. If you make your forgiveness tangible, you are less likely to doubt it later. Tell a friend, partner, or counselor that you have forgiven the person who hurt you. Write a "certificate of forgiveness," stating that you have, as of today, forgiven.

Holding onto forgiveness. When you have doubts about whether you have forgiven, remind yourself of the Pyramid, refer to your certificate of forgiveness, and tell yourself that a painful memory does not disqualify the hard work of forgiveness that you have done. Instead of trying to stop thoughts of unforgiveness, think positively about the forgiveness you have experienced. If you continue to doubt your forgiveness, work back through the Pyramid.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

NGTDT; thinking about you...R U ok?

Dear Space,

Thanks for checking up on me. I'm ok. I had a really rough weekend but its ok. I have set a few boundaries. We will see. Funny thing happened. WH has a "good friend" that is a woman. She was in love with his best friend. anyway. WH gave her some advice and he thought it was so good he told me about it. I guess he thinks that his friend doesn't love her enough because he wont give up all his other girl friends for her. It would be best for her to move on. She deserves to be the only one.
I said to him. Is that your advice for me. He got really quiet and said well our situation is different. I asked him how. no answer i'm still waiting. Ha the fog. even if our marriage is over it would be nice to know that he at least learned a little about personal respect.
Thanks again

It's interesting that you should bring that up about your H's advice...

My wife is EXCELLENT at getting to the core of personal/family situations and gives what is surprisingly good advice. Very, very good, solid, rational advice. To everyone else but herself!

Weird how we can somehow disconnect ourselves from "our" reality to such an extent that we can give this advice, as your H did, and only realize just how close to "his" truth it was when you pointed it out...gosh, I hope I'm not like that! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />