My wife of 23 years has been involved in a PA for three months. She no longer lives at home, having moved into an apartment shortly after D-day (2/16/03), but she is at our house often and I speak with her nearly every day. OM lives 500 miles away so they are only together physically when they are able to make the distance, which since D-day has been exactly every other week, though WW says that they are deeply in love (fogspeak!) and communicate by phone and e-mail daily. I have been doing a good Plan A for almost two months. Kind, considerate, no LB's. Today I even stopped by her office to give her an Easter lily and she asked if she could come home and fix dinner this Sunday. I have our two D, 16 and 19, livng with me and WW has agreed that I should have the house. Both my IC and my attourney have suggested that I file legal seperation papers in order to have the house put in my name. WW has not yet asked for an annulment or a divorce, but she has asked several times when I will have papers for her to sign. I have not told WW, but the seperation papers will be ready next week. I still love my wife and desperately want to save my marriage. How can she sign seperation papers and not believe that our marriage is over? Though it has only been two months, is this the time to start Plan B?

<small>[ February 17, 2005, 12:56 AM: Message edited by: 23down ]</small>

Really hoping for some advice, especially from anyone who has gotten to recovery using Plan A/Plan B. WW is coming to the house this weekend to get some summer clothes, wants to be with Ds on the holiday.

BS: 48, WW: 45
Married 23 years, together 30 years
Two D, 16(H.S. junior) and 19(College sophomore at home)
D-day: 2/16/03, wife called from hotel to tell me.
Most neglected EN: communication.

It's time to start Plan B when your love for her in grave danger of dying. It doesn't sound like that's the case yet. If you don't want the legal separation, I would recommend holding off on it. There's lots of ground for you to cover and a lawyer recommending you get one is like a car salesman recommending you get the deluxe undercoating package. When your wife asks you when the papers will be ready for her to sign, tell her you don't want a divorce (if it's the truth) but that you can't stop her from doing what she feels she needs to do. She wants you to the dirty work for her. Remember, you're trying to save your marriage. As we like to say around here ... you have the rest of your life to end your marriage but just a short time to save it.

Bizarre events happened in the last 24 hours. My WW had apparently informed older D that the OM had told his W about the A three weeks ago, and that OM and his W were now seperated. My D got a phone number and called his wife to verify the story.
His wife had no idea that her husband was involved in A and was devistated, saying that she thought her marriage was sound and that she would confront him with it. Four hours later OM is on phone with my D telling her she should never call his home again, but that the A and my WW weren't worth it and that he would call WW and tell her that it was over and he wanted no further contact with her. A few minutes later WW calls our house, histerical, shouting that we had no right to interfear in her affairs (ironic phrase, wasn't it) and that she wanted us to stop.
This morning I get a call from OM's W. She said she had no idea that A was happening until D had called, that she hoped that I and WW could see way to R and that she and OM had talked all night and were going to try to save their marriage. She said that OM had sworn to NC with WW in any way and hoped that WW would do the same. She then asked for whatever details I might have about A. As I told her what I knew she became more and more angry. OM had told his W that it had only been a one time thing and that it had been over for some time. I told her that I knew of at least five weekends including just this past weekend for certain, even the location.
Shortly after WW calls me screaming that I should never call OM's W again, that D's and myself should stay out of her life, and that she did not want to see or talk to us. And to get her the damned seperation papers ASAP. When I told her that in fact OM's W had called me, she hung up and apparently unplugged her phone. I am assuming that OM's W confronted him with new details and that he immediately called WW. So much for NC! My D's are now on their way to WW's apartment but want me to stay away until they can talk to her. What a soap opera! Any suggestions on my next moves, please?!

Stay cool for now.
Let WW's fantasy world crumble around her. You don't need to help it along, she's doing just fine by herself!!
Keep to Plan A, and remember anything is still possible at this point.
A could be over, it could still continue.
If A is over, be there for her if she needs you, but set your boundaries, accept her back only under your terms.
Most importantly be there for your D's they are going to need you...
Hang in there, wishing you the best...this could be the turn of events you needed.

First of all, you are fortunate in that you did not have to struggle with the issue of whether or not to have contact with OP's spouse. It's amazing how much energy people can use up debating whether to do so or not because of fear of the consequences.

One thing you may want to do is help the OP's spouse recover her marriage. The more quickly and solidly (i.e. NC) the OP goes back to his marriage, the sooner your WW's alternatives diminish.

Second, the possibility of OP's wife as a resource for building trust can be useful. So the sooner your WW can stop "blaming" you for contact, the more quickly you can utilize this resource and help each other's marriages by verifying stories and NC. This suggests a careful balance of tracking who initates calls (she should, since you get grief for initiating) and communicating with an advertised focus on helping her with her marriage and not to get WW in trouble. Also, OP's wife may try to be more careful about broadcasting your involvement. Do this and you can write off any further grief on very deep fog that should "forgive" itself later on.

Since it looks like A could die pretty quickly now, it doesn't seem like separation papers would be worthwhile. It wasn't clear why your W is demanding separation papers. You mention that your attorney suggested them because of house-in-name stuff. I'm not sure, but house-title stuff seems more like a divorce thing rather than separation thing (i.e. different from custody/visitation). But not why your W is demanding for papers to sign - if she's so eager, let her get them written up. Hold off and let your wife know that you don't want a divorce and you won't intiate legal procedures.

The most important things towards recovery will continuing the Plan A stuff and having in place the proper boundaries for WW coming back. The wrong or compromised boundaries will increase the chance of relapse. Also, taking some hard roads now will pay off later (assuming recovery is in the works).

Hope it works out.

When D's arrived at apartment (it is actually female friend's apartment, WW has no lease but has been staying there since D-day) they told WW that OM's W had in fact called me. They explained that OM's W had no idea of the A, that they were not seperated, that she believed that she and OM were happily married. Ds also told WW that when he had been confronted by his wife OM had lied about the extent of A, had told his W that he wanted to work on their M, had said that it was a one time thing and that WW meant nothing to him. By the time it was over (four hours later) WW was realizing what had happened and was so upset with OM that she had literally thrown up. D's called and said that WW was curled up on the floor crying, saying "How could I have been such a fool, how could I have hurt the people I love most so much, how am I ever going to go on?" Ds spent the night there comforting and taking care of their mother.
I pray that this is the end of A and fog will begin to lift! Only time, I suppose, will tell, but I am feeling more hopeful than I have in some time.

Learnin: Thank you. My Ds and I are very close and their welfare is one of my top concerns. I had already scheduled my younger D for IC next week and will make certain that she gets there. I am thinking that my WW and I are still a long way from R but maybe this is the chanc I needed.

est: I had struggled with the question of telling OM's W for over a month, and still had not made a decision whan my D made the call. I now wish I had been the one to take the initiative, but (get ready to chew me out) I had promised my WW that I wouldn't. I have told the OM' W that I will try to watch for any type of contact between OM and WW and will inform her if I find it has occured. She has agreed to do the same for me. In our state a legal seperation is used when two people are not living together and want to clarify financial issues without actually filing for divorce. My wife said she could not afford the attourney and filing fees and I wanted to be certain that if she were to file for divorce later that I would have the house for my Ds.

My WW called me for the first time since the weekend. I don't now what I was expecting but it was not this. WW was angry and accused me of hacking her computer at work and copying her e-mails, and wanted to know if I was going to send them to OM's W. I assume that the OM has already been in contact with WW (so much for NC) and is filling her full of bull. I told WW the truth; that I had only one contact with OM's W, which was when she had called me Sunday morning, and had no idea of how to read her e-mail let alone copy it. Unfortunately I then proceded to tell WW that I was tired of her constant confrontational attitude and that I wanted her to stop calling me until she was completely finished with OM, period! That if she wasn't interested in working on a relationship with me that I would get the seperation papers completed and to her ASAP so that she could sign them and I could get on with my life. Serious LBing I suppose, but I just couldn't believe that she was back in contact with OM three days after the events of the past weekend. So, once again, have I forced myself into a Plan B situation or should I try to step back and continue with Plan A? I still love her and would like to save my marriage but I don't think that she is going to make a break from OM, even now that his W is aware of the A.

I doubt this thing can last, most As don't. Both you and OM's wife need to play it cool and strategize. Both your W and OM will probably continue contact for a bit- that is usually how it works.

Protect yourself financially. Separation papers? It's not the same as divorce. Since your wife moved out, I would get her agreement on the house now not later when she may go for more. Make it clear that you do want to save the M though.

Talk to OM's wife and tell her about Plan A. You can be in league with her. Remember though that she will want to blame it on your W, and you will want to blame it on her H. Don't get into that with her. Explain to her the importance of avoiding LBs.

In the meantime, before you go to Plan B, make sure your Plan A is really really solid. One good thing is your W has seen that OM is a liar to her.

is this the time to start Plan B?
No, it is not time to start Plan B.

Don't have any papers prepared for her to sign. If that's what she wants then she should be the one to do it. Period.

23down,
I don't think you should go to Plan B either. And please don't fight with her, it just makes her defensive and gives her justification to continue the affair.

I would continue to stay in contact with the OMW, though, and do as much as you can with her to end the affair. Your W seems to think she is somehow entitled to the right to the privacy to destroy you. Can you send the OMW to MB and tell her to run to the bookstore and buy His Needs/Her Needs and Surviving an Affair? You really need her to be practicing a good Plan A rather than doing crazy things to push him into the arms of your W.

Have you considered going into counseling with the Harley's? It would be well worth the money and may save your marriage.

Thanks to all. Had a voice mail this morning from WW, a four minute apology for her accusing attitude and would I please call her. I called and did a little apology of my own, saying I was sorry for getting upset. She then asked if she could come to the house Saturday and spend the day with our Ds. I told her that she could come home any time (nicely worded, yes?) and that I would be around working in the yard. She mentioned that it is about time to start planting the flower beds and that she would maybe stop and by some plants on her way out. This afternoon I had a session with my IC and he was very positive but encouraged patience, patience. He said that WW will now have to go through a grieving process that could take a while and that I should try to be there for her when she needs me but not to push or expect too much from her for now. WW called again later and basically gave me an itinerary for her entire weekend and said that I could call her any time. Seperation papers were never mentioned. Plan B is definitely on the back burner for now. Full speed ahead with more Plan A, with a gentle push towards getting her to try IC.

23down:

Cool!

what you have here is a textbook A, ending just right. Your IC is absolutely right. YOu have reasons to be optimistic, but you do need to be patient and prepared for "backsliding" on both of your parts (LBing, withdrawl). This will take time to recover from, but with the OM over the pond and his W aware of the depth of the A, the chances of it reviving are pretty slim (even if they do get together at some point, the fantasy is already shot full of holes!).

Take care,
-Qfwfq

WW spent Saturday afternoon at home with Ds and seemed distant but pleasant. There is still obvious tension between them. I realize that it has only been a week since A ended (she told oldest D there has been NC), and that I need to be patient, but how long should I expect to wait until I begin some movement towards R. And what should I do in the meantime. WW moved out to share an apartment with friend shortly after D-day, and my Ds tell me that she is not happy with that arrangement. She currently seems to be coping with all of this by finding something to do every waking moment; working long hours, dinner out every night with friends and co-workers, first time golf lessons, etc. I was prepared to continue with Plan A, but isn't this part of a plan that is done in order to get the WS to end the A? If the A has ended do I continue Plan A or is it now time for something else? Should I insist on a NC letter at some point or will that not be necessary in this case? I have let my Ds know that I would be willing to let WW come home when she is ready but they both say that it could be some time if ever. How difficult will it be on my part to work on R while she is living out of the home? Things seem to be heading in a positive direction and I do not want to make any mistakes, so I would appreciate any advice from those who are willing to give.

Dear 23Down:

You are getting great advice and were you a female I would be telling you to continue plan A until you have shown your WW the changes you made are real and then Plan B.

I don't think you can assume at all that the affair is over. You may be seeing a down time until tensions settle.

Look your D told you some things listen to her. It will be a while until your W comes home if at all. Meanwhile is she helping with the home mortgage? School bills for the D's? Food for them?

As espior states, I would get the separation to protect the home and custody. If you are going to work this out your W will understand when she gets out of the fog. Until then protect yourself.

All my best

Jack

WW is going to take younger D to dinner tonight (older D back to college until next weekend) and will be leaving tomorrow on a group company trip to Phoenix until Sunday. WW faxed the phone number of the hotel where they will be staying and the itinerary of what they will be doing each day. Good news is it will then be three weeks since OM has had an opportunity to be with WW. Also interesting, our pharmacy called the house yesterday and said that WW's doctor had called in a prescription for Xanax to be picked up today. Is this anti-depressant or anti-anxiety? Have decided not to call OM's W for a while unless I suspect contact, since she seems to take it to her WH each time. Just trying to be a nice guy and take care of my daughters and myself for now.

wmiw: WW and I have each been putting a set amount of money in our joint checking account each week for several years and that has not changed. She has also been taking my Ds shopping for clothes and such, and even bought my younger daughter a TV for her room. The girls know it is out of guilt and so don't feel good about it. Seperation papers may be ready by the time she gets back, but I believe that I will wait to see if WW asks for them again.

Sad update. Haven't posted for a while, things seemed to be going in right direction. There had apparently been NC with OM since 4/23, WW had been acting much better toward Ds and I. WW had been feeling low about living in apartment and even mentioned to younger daughter that she thought she needed to be home more if she thought that she could be forgiven. Last night IC said that on Mother's Day we should invite WW to move back home! We left session feeling excited and happy. Then I went online to see if WW's mobile phone statement for last month had been posted and there it was. She has been calling and recieving calls from OM almost every day, some of them nearly and hour long. Ds are crushed, not even sure if they want to see WW for Mother's Day and I can't blame them. Have not even confronted WW with it yet. After swearing to Ds that she would never talk to OM again, begging them to try to get past the A and not be so angry with her. After crying, throwing up, saying that she had ruined her life she goes right back into the A.
It truly is like watching a junky go completely through withdrawl and then turn around and shoot up again. Still no physical contact with OM for last four weeks as far as we can tell but it is probably just a matter of time. I suppose I will continue with Plan A but my love for WW is starting to fade fast now. Just when you think you can see the light at the end of the tunnel in front of you the train hits you from behind.

23down:

CONFRONT. Also, tell OMW what you know.

It's all still very new, so this isn't surprising, though it is certainly sad. I would continue to plan A, continuing to try to negotiate the end of her A. I would go ahead with Mother's Day plans, possibly including inviting her home, as that would be consistent with plan A (assuming you can handle the fact that the A is ongoing with her around).

I can't remember. Are you in counseling? If so, what does your C suggest? It might be appropriate to get an "emergency session" with your C to strategize, considering M-day is this weekend.

All my best. This is still salvageable!
-2long (fka Qfwfq)

In your tag line your write:
"Most neglected EN: communication"

So, communicate. Make a copy of her phone bill. Set aside some time alone with her, and communicate.

It is possible to just lay the copy in front of her, and say ..."I think we need to talk about this. What can I do to help?"

Then shut your pie hole <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> and let her emotionally purge. Do NOT react. Just listen. Hold her hand while she talks. Do NOT expect any insight from her, any "ah-ha" moments .... just let her purge. You can gather much information and take her temperature this way.

If she asks you what you want to do .... say "I want to help. Tell me everything that's in your heart."

Don't problem solve. Remember .... your "help" is listening, and allowing her free communication. Later, it will be YOUR turn. But, if in the past she felt you did not "hear" her .... now's your chance to demonstrate that you CAN be a safe place for her to spill her guts.

Are you strong enough to do this?

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />