{{{23down}}}

I'm so sorry!

IMHO, this is a perfect example of why we need totally no contact in Plan B. Seeing our WS just brings our hurt to the surface and the temptation to lash out and hurt them back for all the hurt they have given us is more than we can resist. We react with our hearts and not our heads.

Now, I am no expert, but if I were in your shoes, I would send her an email. Yes, I would apologize, and I would point out that this is exactly the reason that your earlier letter insisted on no contact with her until the A is ended. Explain, briefly, that seeing her while the A is still going on brings is just too painful to you, and that, despite your best efforts, you lash out. Then, reinforce the boundaries of Plan B.

In the future, as far as D's games are concerned, by all means you should continue to go, but don't let yourself get cornered by your WW. If she approaches you, greet her kindly, then excuse yourself...go to the men's room, anywhere, then change seats if necessary, but don't let her engage you in conversation.

Again, just my opinion, but what happened is not beyond repair. I'll bet many of us can recount episodes where we went off the deep end in Plan B, either showed anger/rage, or had it directed at us.

I vote for the email. Don't go overboard, but definitely contact her and explain that this is why no contact is the boundary you are establishing...that it isn't good (obviously) for either of you.

Good luck.

*S*

Ditto on sparkle's suggestion.

Thanks, folks. Since everyone seemed in agreement I sent the email.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I was glad you came to see (D) play last night.
It was good to see you, and there were many things I wanted to say to you. But I let my emotions get the best of me and instead said things I never should have, and I want to apologize. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hope it's enough for now. I've been beating myself up all day for an opportunity missed.
WW has told Ds she will be "out of town" this weekend. Our refinancing/closing on the house has been moved to next week, so I will be seeing her again. WW said last night that she had recieved seperation papers but needed to review them with attourney. We will see if she goes for a disillusion.

Remember, when you see her next week...keep the interaction to a minimum...just business. Do not allow her to engage you in personal conversations about home, children, relationship, anything. You are "busy"...gotta go...return phone calls, have a meeting/appointment...you name it.

AVOID...personal interaction with her at all costs. It just feeds her needs.

Hang in there, 23! We're here. You disappeared for too long a time. Some of us were worried about you.

Much has happened this week and I thought it was time for an update. Thank you to everyone who cares, and who have been kind enough to post on my other threads.
We finally had the refinancing/closing Tuesday. WW signed the papers turning the house, and the payments, over to me. I am now certain I can stay here and take care of DD's while they finish school. After the closing WW and I stood together outside and talked for 10-15 minutes. Nothing serious, but it was much better this time with no LBs. At one point WW did say she was hurt that our DDs didn't want to spend more time with her. I said I thought the girls would like to see her more often but that it was hard for them right now, and she replied "I just wish you all could understand how hard this has been on me." The words "self inflicted" did spring to mind, but I held my tongue.
DDs went to their aunt's on Thanksgiving for a day with WW's extended family. It was awkward, as my DDs had called and told their aunt the entire A story (as opposed to the lies their mother had been telling). DDs said that being there around their mother was harder than not seeing her for the last six weeks. No one asked them why I wasn't there, though I had been to WW's sister's every Thanksgiving for thirty years. I like my in-laws and it seems so unfair that I will no longer be a part of their lives, but I suppose it's true that blood is thicker than water.
Then today OMW called to say that WW was with OM in their home town. OM is now living in a penthouse apartment and OMW says that he is introducing WW to his friends. OM is telling them he wants to bring WW to Canada to live with him. OMW sounds very hurt but says she will never willingly give OM a Dv and that he has never mentioned wanting one. Yet OM and WW now seem to be conducting the relationship quite openly.
Finally, this week marks one year that WW and OM met and first slept together.
Next Wednesday I have an appointment with my attourney to once more draft seperation papers with changes agreed to by WW. This is going to be my last attempt at finalizing some type of financial agreement with her, and I will send them to her signed. WW may attach a petition for dissolution, or she may file for Dv. I will do neither. I will not be the one to end our M. But I may soon have to let go.
I have begun to think that, in my determination to save our M, I may have allowed myself to dream that there will certainly be a recovery. My WW has never once shown any desire or inclination to return home. She has told friends and family, and our DDs and I, that she never will. I still love her; my time in PlanB has not allowed that love to end, but my determination has begun to fade.
I have posted before that I once told my WW, "In all of your life you will never find anyone who will love you as much as I do." And she replied, "I know that is true, but it doesn't matter." Well, it does matter! If not that someone loves you that much, then it matters that you can feel that much love for someone else. I need to feel that again. I want another chance to share myself and my life, emotionally and physically, with someone soon. I do not want to let that chance pass by while I continue to dream the impossible dream.
But for now, it's back to PlanB and NC with my WW.


BS:48, WW:45, OM:58
Married 24 years now, together 30 years
Two D, 17(H.S. senior) and 20(College junior at home)
D-day: 2/16/03, wife called from hotel to tell me.
D-day for OM: 4/19/03, older daughter called OMW
PlanB: 8/19/03

<small>[ November 30, 2003, 01:29 AM: Message edited by: 23down ]</small>

Sigh!

What can I say? I am very sorry and certainly wish things were moving in a different direction for you.

Kind thoughts,

*S*

23:

Recovery IS a certainty. YOUR recovery, and your DDs'. I firmly believe that those of us that go through this experience the "right way" have no option NOT 2 recover.

best,
-2long

I seems each time my WW has been with OM I receive an email asking about separation papers, so I was surprised when I didn't get one yesterday. Today WW called my cell phone (I didn't answer); she did not leave a message. This evening I get this email: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> i won't call anymore, i pretty much give up. i will try and get the x-mas that i have out to the house,i can mail it. if they don't want it they can take it back i guess. please have V sent the correct papers to C soon. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Very strange. Not her usual letter-like email to me. No name, no capital letters. And what is WW giving up on? Me answering her phone calls? Her DDs? (I assume her DDs are the "they".) Perhaps she has finally given up on the idea that anyone is ever going to accept what she is doing?
OMW said Saturday that OM told her he will be going to his cousin's for Christmas dinner with her and his children the same as every year. WW has never mentioned to DDs what she hopes to do for Christmas. DDs and I will be going to my parent's Christmas Eve and having Christmas morning together at our home as usual. I supposed they would meet their mother at grandmother's or her sister's later that day to exchange gifts, etc.
I know, I know, I shouldn't even try to figure out what is going on in her head right now. But really, if she hadn't put in the last sentence about the papers the rest of the email might have had me worried about her. Does anyone have an idea of what might be going on?

I think your wife is in the throes of "ohsh*t, I think I screwed up."

And I think you should let her stay there. Whatever you do, don't have C send the papers to V! (Or whatever that was.) Keep cool, stay dark, and delay delay delay when it comes to stuff that leads to divorce.

23:

JustJ nailed it, rather elo2uently! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I think her "giving up" remark has 2 do with her frustration that you won't play this game her way - she'd love 2 have this OM and his ability 2 seemingly afford 2 burn a wet mule, while at the same time have a peachy-keen relationship with her former family. Gee, why AREN'T you pleased that she's hooked up with Rollo the Rich Kid? If I had HIS money, I'd BURN mine! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

And therein lies the beauty of the MB methods. Because even cushy As can't compete with the sincerity and love of the primary relationship and family that she spent 23 years building.

I think her world is starting 2 crack. Give it time, it could still take a lot more.

all my best 2 you and your Ds,
-ol' 2long

ooooooooh!

23, somehow I missed this news and just found it today.

My take: she is starting her downward spiral. Soon (ok, 2long, maybe not THAT soon) she willl hit bottom. I think the depression is already starting to kick in...no efforts at correct email punctuation, etc., talk about giving up.

DON"T HAVE ANY PAPERS SENT. Drag your feet forever if need be. Remember, this A is a little different - not only the allure of the A, but the added seduction of the $$.

I think this is great news.

Keep the faith, 23! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

*S*

An update for those who have followed my thread for so long.
DDs and I got through the holidays in good spirits. Went to my parents for Christmas Eve. Had Christmas morning at home, DDs each went to their boyfriends' and then everyone came back for Christmas dinner. I am becoming quite a good cook.
Interestingly, OMW called me just before Christmas to tell me that OM would be spending the holiday with her, his children, and her mother (his MIL), and the rest of the weekend in Canada with friends. So WW spent Christmas Eve and Day at her sisters, then went back to her apartment. We thought she might try to spend sometime with the girls over the weekend but they only met Sunday evening at a restaurant to exchange gifts. DDs have not seen WW since.
No one was doing anything for New Years so DDs talked me into a New Years Eve party and had 40-50 of their friends at the house. I stayed and kept an eye on it, everything went fine. WW tried to call my cell phone around noon on New Years Eve but I did not answer. What could she possibly have wanted to say to me that would not have hurt. She is starting the new year in another man's arms. DDs did not hear from her for almost a week after. OM must have taken WW "someplace nice" again to make up for Christmas.
My favorite uncle died last Monday and was buried Friday. He was a Marine and there was a full military graveside service. Nothing sadder than the playing of taps. My entire family came from all over the country and, though it was a sad time, it was good to have everyone together. It seemed so unfair for DDs not to have their mother there with us.
I have been in PlanB for five months now. I still love WW as much as ever but my patience is starting to fade. WW has been in PA with OM for over a year now and out of our house for ten months. I do not believe that she is ever coming home, not because of the A but because she no longer wants to be married. WW has told DDs that she is not interested in being married, or married again. If this A ends, WW will most likely begin another and has said so. She is happy living in her own apartment, working at a job she loves making good money, and seeing OM on occassion and is not concerned that he is married. She apparently does not expect OM to Dv soon, if ever, and is OK with that. He spends his big money on her, takes her on vacations, and she is not ashamed to be seen in public with another woman's husband. OM has begun introducing her to his friends in his hometown. WW is married, OM is married, and neither cares.
This seems to be the way things are. She enjoys this life. As much as I would like to believe in the MB recovery principles and their ability to bring a WS home I am beginning to think that there comes a time when, whether the LB is empty or not, the BS has to accept the facts.
If anyone has any advice or suggestions I would certainly appreciate hearing from you. I will not be the one to end my M. I will continue in PlanB, continue to take care of my DDs and myself, and continue to hope.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 23down:
<strong> If anyone has any advice or suggestions I would certainly appreciate hearing from you. I will not be the one to end my M. I will continue in PlanB, continue to take care of my DDs and myself, and continue to hope. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">23,

I would not be so quick to throw out the whole concept (of Plan B).

Yes, your W seems "happy" in her new life. But, you do not know what goes on in her heart, on the days/evenings when OM cannot meet w/her.....when she is there ALL ALONE, when she wants to see or talk to her child/ren and cannot....

Their A has been "outted", that's true, but b/c he is still M'd and plans to stay that way, it seems they still have the euphoric "high" every time they meet.

You cannot discount the effects on HIS W, and when she will have had enough and start to put pressure ON HIM to put up or get out. THEN WW's fantasy might burst, since she will get to see him in ALL his glory........day in and day out.

I applaud you for "hanging in" and I STILL believe you should not give up on your M YET!

God Bless,

I agree with Lupolady. Hang in there (which you are).

Further, as long as he plans to stay married...hmmm, that tells me that your W is just the toy of the year (month, whatever). Sounds like this man has a history of this type of behavior. I knew a guy like that once. Serial cheater. Wife stuck by him throughout the marriage. But this guy was CONSTANTLY unfaithful. Sounds like this man may be made of the same stuff.

Add to that the money aspect. I may be wrong, but I think that guys with lots of money like that believe they can buy anything and anyone. He thinks the $$ gives him sooooo much power! He can throw scraps to his W and family and still keep his sweetie on the side. Your wife is merely a pretty little plaything he keeps for whenever it seems convenient to him. He sure wasn't anxious to spend Christmas with her, was he? That sure says something about the depth of commitment he has to her.

Your W may be thinking that this is the way she wants her life to go. But wait until the guy with the big bucks tires of her and drops her like a hot potato! She isn't going to be feeling much like this is the way she wants her life to be. It could be that being dropped like that would make the stability or her marriage, the love of her daughters and the devotion of her husband suddenly seem doggoned attractive.

Glad you aren't planning on making any moves toward divorce. Let it play itself out. I believe it will.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

23:

"WW has told DDs that she is not interested in being married, or married again."

This is not an original statement, as you well know. She CAN'T say or think differently while she's in her fog.

Whether she'll ever waken or not? Who knows? Probably some day. I can't imagine spending the holidays like that will be too rewarding over time. Will you still be around when/if she wakes up? I think you can, for quite a while longer. Try to think of it as a perhaps painful growth experience for her, when she does wake up that is. You continue to grow and be there for your family. That will forever be what counts.

best,
-Qfwfq (aka 2long)

WW is no longer in contact with DDs. She was calling and talking to both DDs every day, sometimes several times a day, after the New Years break (we never found out where she went for the five days) but suddenly stopped trying to get in touch with them by phone or email. She has not spoken to either DD in three weeks. Very sad.
DDs and I went to MIL's (WW's mother) last Sunday for dinner. DDs hadn't seen their grandmother since Thanksgiving and so we took her Christmas presents and we all had a good time. Not awkward at all, though talk about the A was avoided. MIL did ask if WW and I were still married! She knows that WW is having an A but does not have any details about the A or OM. MIL says she hates what is happening to our family but that WW does not talk to her about us. We are going back to MIL's in a few weeks and on the way home DDs decided that they are going to call their grandmother and ask if she would like to talk with them about what has happened.
WW called me Tuesday (accidently picked up my cell phone without looking at incoming number). She said that she had signed and sent seperation papers, along with a signed petition for dissolution, to my attourney. She also wanted to come to the house this week and get the rest of her clothes. She still has clothes hanging in our closet and I have felt it to be a small sign of hope that she might return. She asked that I not be here when she comes to get them.
Friday I called my attouney's office but he is on vacation until next week. When I tried to call WW at her office to let her know, there was a recording saying that she would be gone and unavailable until 2/9. Her assistant said she did not know where to reach her. I tried WW's cell phone; it is out of the service area ("someplace nice" I'd guess). DDs and I have no idea where WW is or how to get in touch with her. So it looks like she won't be picking up her clothes this week after all.
The girls and I are doing well. Younger DD has been accepted to both her first and second choice colleges, older DD made Dean's List again last quarter. I am so proud of them for the way they are handling this. I am taking care of DDs, doing some remodeling inside the house (snow and cold in Ohio), working out, staying busy. Friends coming here tonight for Super Bowl, though I will be the only non-couple. Life goes on and it ain't all that bad.
But it is starting to look more and more like things will be coming to an ending, or perhaps a new beginning, soon. I went to my IC Thursday and we had a good session. He is very pro-M and has tried to help me keep a possitive attitude about my situation and the eventual recovery of my M. When I leave he often gives me a book to read (Torn Assunder, Love Must Be Tough, etc.)
When I left this week he gave me another one..."Starting Over".

<small>[ February 01, 2004, 12:13 PM: Message edited by: 23down ]</small>

Hi 23down,

I just spent the last hour reading ALL the posts.What a story.I'm sorry that your WW never came to "her senses" after all this time but you did an admirable job of trying to be there for her and even more so helping your daughters through it all.None of us knows for sure how things will turn out in the end but we try our best to do what we think is right with the information and support we get here.

What is it about Toronto,Canada anyway?? My WH homewrecker,as she is affectionately called,lives there too.Also,the company that my WH worked for in that city is rife with people having affairs.Ugh.What is with people anyway!

Well,just wanted to say that I think you should be proud of the job you did.That's all anyone of us can do and although we may not ultimately reconcile with our WS's,you are the one to walk away with your dignity,integrity,respect and honesty.Those things your WW can never have now nor take away from you.

O <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Wow, Octobergirl! Thanks for reading my thread.
It has been a real roller-coaster ride. I have tried to follow the MB principles ever since I found this site, and in many ways they have helped me get through the hardest times, but it seems that saving my M may not be in the cards.
PlanB has not been as effective as I had hoped. After nearly six months I am still thinking of WW far too much, i.e. constantly. And according to that last book my counselor gave me, if there is a divorce or dissolution it will take from two to five years for me to completely recover.
I think one of the hardest parts for me is that WW has refused to talk about why she left. Since D-day she has never been willing to discuss with DDs or I in any way what led her to seek out OM (it was not a long term friendship or work relationship, he was a complete stranger) and walk away from our M. She will only say that she no longer wants to be married.
On our 23rd wedding anniversary in September 2002 WW told our DDs and I that she was saving so that all of us could go to Cancun for our 25th anniversary where she and I would renew our wedding vows, in DD's presence, in a special place she had read about. Two months later she was sleeping with OM. WTH! I know that we may not have been meeting all of each others EN, that I share in the responsibilty of our M, but I have never understood why it must end. I believed in us; I still do.
BTW, yesterday during the game WW's best friend told me that WW and OM are, indeed, back in the Carribean. Oh, well.

<small>[ February 02, 2004, 09:40 PM: Message edited by: 23down ]</small>

23,

Well, as you know, I certainly don't have all (ha! or perhaps ANY) answers, BUT...

I will offer that at this point, I don't feel that any WS can get a grip on the why's of what led to the affair.

If, once again, we draw the comparison to an addiction to a substance - let's just say in this case it might be a drug. You're going along just fine, living your life day to day. Your life, your marriage seems just fine. You make plans for the 25th anniversary. Then one night, out with a group of friends, someone introduces you to this substance. You have never done this before in your life - would never DREAM that you were the type to even try it. But you get carried away in the moment. The group eggs you on, and you try it (oh, heck, it's just this once...what can it hurt?).

BAM! What a feeling! What a high! The euphoria is unbelievable! At that moment your life has changed. Gone is the contentment you experienced right up until 5 minutes ago. Gone, forgotten, are your plans for the future in your "old" life. All you can think about is the next time you will get that wonderful, blissful feeling you just experienced. You are carried away, and this new substance (OM) is all you can think of. It RULES your life now.

I don't think your WW is capable of even recalling her statements on your anniversary. The fact that she is pulling away from her family, including her daughters, shows just how strong this addiction is and how much it is in control of her every behavior.

The solution? Wish I had one. But I guess that until she finds herself face-down in the alley from the effects of her addiction, and realizes the mess she is making of her life, there is little you, I or anyone else can do. Much as we love our WS's, we sure can't control them. We can try to rock their addiction-worlds by making it uncomfortable (exposure), but beyond that, the addict must want to change.

Your WW isn't there, 23down. She is still experiencing the high and loving the experience. That's why she doesn't want to stay married right now. That's why she isn't talking to the girls. It is very sad for all concerned.

No addict wants to be reminded of their "before" lives, not while the addiction is still enjoyable. Heck, getting high is too much fun. It brings out the child in them, and leaves the adult behind.

Rambling...but some thoughts.

Take care...stay strong.

Good stuff, Sparkle!

23:

"I have tried to follow the MB principles ever since I found this site, and in many ways they have helped me get through the hardest times, but it seems that saving my M may not be in the cards."

While it has been going on for a while, it is certainly not out of the question that she might still come around. In any case, I think that the MB methods ARE working here.

"PlanB has not been as effective as I had hoped. After nearly six months I am still thinking of WW far too much, i.e. constantly."

You're also talking 2 her far more than you should be in plan B. Sorry 2 be harsh here, but you need 2 think about what her take is on the limited contact that you do have with her. Is it reinforcing her construct of how the universe works? I bet it is. But I also think that it's telling that you think of her constantly. You haven't "earned a divorce" yet.

"And according to that last book my counselor gave me, if there is a divorce or dissolution it will take from two to five years for me to completely recover."

And it will take HER from 2 2 5 years 2 recover, 2. Once she starts. This prepostrous lifestyle of hers can't last, and I think you know it. Someday, she'll want 2 reconcile with her family, whether it's 2 stay M'd 2 you or not. I can't believe that leaving her D's out of her life will be all that fun, long term.

"I think one of the hardest parts for me is that WW has refused to talk about why she left. Since D-day she has never been willing to discuss with DDs or I in any way what led her to seek out OM (it was not a long term friendship or work relationship, he was a complete stranger) and walk away from our M. She will only say that she no longer wants to be married."

It will never make sense. I wouldn't even engage in conversation with her about it. Certainly don't ask her.

"BTW, yesterday during the game WW's best friend told me that WW and OM are, indeed, back in the Carribean. Oh, well."

Consider asking the WW's best friend not 2 give you these kinds of updates. Think about what they're saying 2 one another. By NOT asking for updates from this friend, you let the friend pass on the "message" 2 your WW that you don't care what she's doing. That you're moving on without her because she's given every indication that it is what she wants... ...which I don't believe she really wants - she WANTS these updates from you, because it shows her that she will always have you hanging on in the wings.

please take care,
-ol' 2long

<small>[ February 03, 2004, 05:24 AM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>