Thank you, friends, for replying again.
*Sparkle* that was, indeed, good stuff. One of the few posts I have printed to keep. Until I read that post, though I have often compared the A to an addiction I had not understood how simply it could have began and how quickly it became so powerful. At that moment all of our lives were changed. Although I hate to think that what she felt the first time with OM was that euphoric, I'm sure it's true. And OM's money allows him to push the LDA in a way that most men could not.
2long, you are right in saying that I have too much contact with WW. Although I have not spoken to her that much (last Tuesday was the first time in two months) and only about our DDs or legal issues, I am constantly thinking of her and trying to find out through the girls or her friends how and what she is doing. Without giving up, I do need to get her out of my mind and out of my life as much as possible. I will work on it.

When WW got back Sunday from her week-long Carribean vacation with OM she calls both DDs, after having not spoken to either of them in a month, crying and asking them to please talk to her more often and spend more time with her. Obviously having NC at least with DDs is starting to affect her. But WW tells DDs that they must learn to seperate her relationship with OM from her relationship with them. WW has asked them to meet her at her mother's this weekend (they still refuse to go to her apartment). I sggested they go, at least to see their grandmother. I will leave it to my DDs to determine the type of relationship they will be able to have with their mother. It must be their decision.
Over two weeks ago WW tells me that she has signed seperation papers along with a petition for dissolution and sent them to my attourney (V).
I called V yesterday to ask about seperation/dissolution papers. He, of course, has not been sent any papers. V calls WW's attourney who says that, while the seperation papers seem to be agreeable to WW, she has not signed them or a petition for dissolution and has now decided to file for divorce. Her attourney is saying that WW is somehow wanting to end our M, without having me appear in court, through a type of uncontested divorce procedure.
V said he really could not understand what was going on. That if WW files and has me served with any type of divorce papers that do not include the agreed upon seperation terms that he will have to protect me by counter-filing within thirty days, but that both WW and I will almost certainly end up in court before a judge. When I asked V why my WW would not end our M with a simple dissolution (if I were willing to sign) he said, "I smell a rat". Right, a big Canadian rat!
I will stay in PlanB and wait to see what papers, if any, I am going to be served with. This ride never seems to end.
Nearly twenty-five years ago I stood with my now WW before a minister and said "I do". And, if she is going to end our M, I have every intention of standing with her again when she says "I don't". I hope it never comes to that.
Has anyone ever heard of or been through a divorce where the parties do not have to meet or appear in court?

23:

I may not be able 2 smell a rat here, but I do smell indecisiveness.

Who knows if the rat exists or if he's canadian. Why would that guy care about your 50%? I thought he was well off enough 2 burn a wet mule.?

Give it time, and definitely protect yourself.

I think it's great that she's feeling badly that her Ds don't want 2 talk 2 her. And it's good that you're letting them decide what they want 2 do.

Hang in there!
-ol' 2long

Hi 23, old friend,

I don't have any answers or experience in the question you are asking, but I wanted you to know I read your post.

I agree totally with 2long...seems waffling is happening. She doesn't know what direction to take.

And...I think that the fact she is reaching out to DDs is a good sign, REGARDLESS of the fact that she says they need to separate their relationship with her from the relationship with OM. Remember what I said about addiction? During the heaviest phase of the addiction, the addict rejects everything - even family, close frients.

Perhaps, just perhaps, the reaching out to DDs is a good sign.

Don't want to give you false hope. But, Buddy, hang in there, like you said, it is up to HER to do or not to do. You are steadfast in your commitment to the marriage and the family.

Be strong, my friend.

Yes, it has finally happened. WW has filed for D, using “gross neglect of duty” as grounds.
Ohio has both "no-fault" and "fault" grounds that can be filled for a divorce. The two "no-fault" grounds are irreconcilable differences and living separate and apart for one year. The nine "fault" grounds include gross neglect, and adultery. Unfortunately Ohio is also an "equitable division" state so that no matter what grounds are used to get the divorce, and regardless which spouse screwed up, the division of assets is the same.
This is why I am so pissed off about the way WW filed. If she did not agree with the terms of the separation agreement (she said she did) I would have been willing to change them. If she was thinking that going to court might get her some kind of better deal, she could have used the irreconcilable differences "no-fault" grounds and gotten a divorce. At that point I would not have fought it. Instead, she hits me with the gross neglect. If there is one thing I am not guilty of it is neglect of either her or the girls. WW will even have to find a witness to back her claim. I will be interesting to see which of our friends will be willing to testify against me.
I have 28 days to reply to her claim. I can counter-file using the adultery grounds (which I can easily prove) but to what end. We still wind up with a divorce and an equal division of assets. So instead I will simply go through the process (hearing, pre-trail, trail - if it goes that far) and defend myself against the charges. Though dragging her lover into court to testify might be satisfying, it would not change the outcome and would pull me down to her level. I won't go there.

23:

good for you! I agree, you could certainly counterfile on grounds of adultery, but you'd be stooping 2 the same game-playing nastiness she's pulling. Definitely don't do that 2 yourself and your DDs. ...I say, answer on the last day you have 2. And be the good guy. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

How are your DDs taking this? They've always struck me as bright girls.

take care,
-ol' 2long

23D,

Sorry to hear the fog still exists in your area. As for counter filing, I just wanted to give my 2 cents. ok?

While I agree with your logic, you are still dealing with the fog. What does your lawyer say? I think that counter filing w/adultery charges would help you prove that this D did not happen due to gross neglect on your part.

Why is this critical? Because this is the one time you can make this statement. When the OW filed and RO against my H, she concoted a bunch of embellished lies. She made phony calls to the women's abuse hotline, law enforcement agencies and even to my church. In court she tried to convince the family court that she was some sort of victim. Let's see a 3 year A and she was the victim? Oh yea, her pants kept falling down - Yuck. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

The point is that in court, I had evidence that she had been harassing me as well as H. H did not want to make it a war so he gave his prepared speech which the judge did believe. I did not testify but sure wish I had. The OW also claimed financial hardship and got her RO for free. That aggravated me then and now.

You see everyday I think about what happened in court and truly regret not going to the stand with H. He asked me to be there but to be quite unless I was called to testify. I was not called. Now I have to decide if I want to file charges against the OW but as time goes on the strength of the case diminishes.

So my point is that it is better to use the opportunity and not allow yourself to look like the crimminal. WS' are quite good at passing the blame to others. They do not respect their family or any other institution. Don't give her the beenfit of the doubt. Let the court know why she left even if the split ends up the same. It will be recorded history that a WS can not alter.

Why do I say that? Because in our case the WS is now an H and is truly sorry of the whole case. Part of his healing included exposing him to the elements of how the world really deals with the A,.

I know it is not an exact scenario to yours but I wanted you not to have to deal with the what if syndrome that I seem to be stuck in.

JMHO,
L.

23down,

In this day and age of electronic records and everything and everyone having access to these records I would counter file and either force her to defend adultery or have her back off to "no-fault". This could cost you more than you realize with "big brother" watching everything.

I am very serious about this. Abandonment, adultery, etc are all grounds. Speak with your lawyer. If you can easily prove her adultery and she cannot prove her charges SHE may get to pick up the bill.

Please consider this.

God Bless,

JL

Hi 23down,

I just wanted to add that I agree with counter-filing.If WW want's to try and drag your name through the mud by falsely "accusing" you of neglect,then you have a right to file suit with what is the truth.If you prepared for the worst like I did,you have proof of her adultery,as I do for my WH. Plenty of proof.

I'm sorry it has come down to all this but from your other posts over the months it sounded as though your WW was really gone,left the building,no turning back. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I personally would want on record that the cause of my marriage's destruction was due to,IMO,my WH adultery.Then go from there.
It's the principle right? not the money or property,at least it wouldn't be for me.

Anyway,I wish you success in this forthcoming endeavor.

O

Hmm, interesting. Three for filing counter-claim, one against.

2long. Make that two against, for now. I have not been able to talk to my attorney since I was served so I do not know his opinion. His nickname is &#8220;Mad Dog&#8221;, and I am told that he is absolutely ruthless in court. If I file a counter-claim it will be ugly.
Thank you for asking about my DDs. They are both doing well and are, at this moment, at dinner with their mother. Today is her birthday and apparently WW chose to spend this day with her DDs instead of OM. Or he had something better to do this weekend. This will be her first birthday in thirty years that I have not been with her. I miss being there.

Orchid. You make a good point. I don&#8217;t want to counter-file out of a sense of vengeance, but I do need to defend myself and do not want to later regret not doing so completely. And it might be that even this late my WW needs to be shown how those who engage in As are thought of. Even my younger DD has said that if this goes to court she wants to be there to look my WW in the eye when she testifies against me. I would not want that, but DD swears if she is eighteen by then and legally an adult I won&#8217;t stop her. She can be a little hot headed about this.

JL. Another good point. I would hate at some later date to have a potential employer or anyone else think that the gross neglect grounds were valid. And I like the idea of using the adultery counter-claim to force her to change her grounds to a &#8220;no-fault&#8221; such as irreconcilable differences. Oh, yeh, and pay the bill. LOL.

Octobergirl. I have plenty of proof. I even have a hotel receipt with a date, room number, and OM&#8217;s signature that matches up with her phone records. I doubt that she would deny the A anyway. She has been too determined to share her feelings for OM with anyone who will listen, accept, and enable. Yes, it looks like this one is over.

Thanks to all for replying. When I began this thread I was so hoping that it would become one of those great MB successes that everyone wants to read. I don&#8217;t post much here now because it looks like it will instead be a failure, as least as far as the M is concerned. But I will see my attorney next week and post an update for those who care.

23:

Let me be a bit hard on the pro-counter filers from my own si2ation:

In response 2 SiSF's recent update, I posted that I feel "numb" these days. We're definitely doing better than ever before, but my W still can't stop missing RM, and still has his email address in her "contacts list" in her email account. I intend 2 ask her 2 delete it, but I still would rather it be her decision.

Simply stated, I would very much like 2 stay married 2 her for the rest of my life, but I'm getting very, very tired of not being able 2 get the images of them 2gether out of my mind after more than 2 years. I could start demanding, or I could try 2 be patient yet some more and let the process work. I'm not one for forcing things, which sometimes does get me in2 trouble, and has me feeling a bit down right now because sometimes I think I SHOULD force things. But 2 do so would be manipulative, and I don't want 2 be that.

I think it's a fine line between being honest and coming across as sounding demanding. I still struggle with that. Only you will know what's right for you in your sitch.

I think that it would be a good idea 2 talk 2 your lawyer about the possibility of counterfiling, perhaps 2 allow him 2 make the not-so-subtle suggestion 2 HER lawyer that a counter suit might be nasty, and thus force her 2 downshift a gear or 2. But don't just counterfile without really thinking this through.

Don't try 2 make sense of your WW's behavior. This is script MB advice that you're all well aware of. Act based on what YOU know 2 be right for YOU, not out of spite, or anything that might come across that way. Because, if you do, your M IS over, no 2uestion about it. If you stay with the plans, though, it might not be. Keep the door open for her 2 re2rn 2 the M. Keep your conscience clear. But do protect yourself.

-ol' 2long

Just another update for those who might still be interested.
I was finally legally forced to respond to WW&#8217;s divorce filing, and Friday I counter-filed. I of course denied the gross neglect charge and used &#8220;living separate and apart for one year&#8221; as the no-fault grounds for a divorce. WW&#8217;s attorney has never sent the signed separation agreement so we will have to go to court.
WW called my older DD yesterday (DD&#8217;s birthday) and they argued and cried for forty minutes. It was the first time they had spoken in almost a month. WW said that she would have never been able to start the A, especially with a complete stranger, unless she had felt certain that she was through with the M and not interested in staying with me. WW told DD that if she had not left I would have wasted the rest of my life, and hers, trying to make her happy. It is definitely looking like a true exit A.
DD says OM (who remains married) and WW are now discussing her leaving her job and moving to Canada when our divorce is final. There seems to be no end to the damage she is willing to do to her relationship with her DDs in order to end our M and be with OM.

23:

I think you're doing the right things.

Your WW is in for a rude awakening someday if her OM hasn't DV'd his W. What's she going 2 be? His toy?

Very sad.

I wish you all the best,
-ol'2long

23down,

I am sorry to see this update, but she does seemed determined to do this no matter who or how she hurts those closest to her. You did well to counter-file. Make sure you protect yourself and your DD's as best you can.

Do continue to keep us updated. I suspect it will be a few years before she figures out what she has really done. By that time I suspect your life will much happier.

Nevertheless, there is always hope that sometime soon she may come out of the fog.

God Bless,

JL

23down,

I understand about "exit A's", as I believed my H had one too. He has been gone just one month shy of 3 years.

On March 1, OW had a surgical procedure go wrong, and died.....

xH is now all alone. I wonder what he'll do next?

btw - he called and told me this himself, otherwise there has been no contact between us. Sooooooo, I really wonder what he expected (or wanted?) me to say at this news.

So I'm writing to say you still need to hang in there, no matter how SURE she is of what she "wants," and KNOW that even exit A's can sometimes end in the most abrupt manner.

I had been maintaining a very solid PlanB up until about four weeks ago, but I had to break it for good reason. And there has been an interesting development. Read on, though it&#8217;s a bit long.
This is younger DD&#8217;s senior high school year and so on May 22 we had an open house/birthday party (she turned 18 that day). About sixty people were here at the house including my family, WW&#8217;s family, co-workers and mutual friends. WW and I had begun emailing each other several weeks before to discuss invitations, preparations, etc. On the day before, WW said that she was nervous about coming with all of those people here.
I told her that she should be here; that she was DD&#8217;s mother and to be proud of that and hold her head high. It was all a bit unusual since WW has been out of the house for over a year and I had not seen her in nearly six months, and she seemed very emotional at times, but it went well. She actually gave tours of the house to some of her co-workers who had not been here before. No one mentioned the missing furniture. LOL
This past Sunday we both attended DD&#8217;s graduation ceremony and sat together. It was here I noticed that she was once again wearing the ring I gave her for our 20th wedding anniversary but on her right hand, ring finger. I designed it and had it custom made, with two diamonds set inside the loops of an infinity sign. Yet on her left hand, middle finger she is wearing a ring that we believe belongs to OM. I was hard not to say anything. If WW sees the anniversary ring as nothing more than a nice piece of jewelry I wish she would have the diamonds pulled and put in a couple of necklaces for our DDs.
Now for the interesting development. WW has apparently stopped seeing OM, at least for the last eight weeks or so, though I am sure they are in contact. Seems that on their last trip OM told WW that he was holding a position open for her with his company and wanted her to quit her job and move to Canada to live with him. Yet OM also admitted to WW that he had not asked his W for a divorce!!??
WW told older DD this early April, and that she was thinking she might be leaving in June, then called DD three days later from MIL&#8217;s and said that she and OM had decided to &#8220;take a break&#8221;. Three days after that, MIL called to say that the reason WW was at her house was because WW was having panic/anxiety attacks. MIL had taken WW to a doctor who had diagnosed her as suffering from depression (duh!) and put her on Zoloft, and she would be staying there for a few days until they determined what affects the drug would have on driving, etc. WW returned to her apartment a few days later but has not been to Canada, and OM has not been to Ohio, since.
In the meantime we finally have an initial hearing date on the D set for 7/15/04. I still have not received any type of signed separation agreement from WW so I suppose I will have to wait until then to discover what she is up to. So it is back to PlanB (I haven&#8217;t had any contact since our DD's graduation). I still love WW, and it was good to see her, but my $LB is draining fast now and time is short.
Both DDs are doing super. Younger DD is leaving on a senior vacation trip to Myrtle Beach with friends this Saturday, older has one week of college classes left before exams and then she will be home. We are all looking forward to spending time together this summer.
Thanks to all.
23down

Hi 23!

Good 2 hear from you. Isn't it amazing how these sitches evolve? Or maybe it's "devolve?"

My W just recently seems 2 have started going through withdrawl from RM. It's definitely nothing like anything I've experienced before. I have no idea what will happen, but with Penny's help, I intend 2 focus on building a fu2re 2gether - something my W has always said she's wanted. Will it be enough 2 encourage her 2 let go of RM forever? Heck if I know. But it's the right thing 2 do for me, and that's what matters first.

best,
-ol' 2long

Yes, it&#8217;s over. WW came into court yesterday with the signed agreement and had her attorney change her filing from gross neglect to living separate and apart for one year. There was nothing for me to defend myself against or deny. My attorney did state for the record that I did not want the Dv, but we all spent a few minutes in front of the judge and the Dv was granted.
And so my M of 24 years, 10 months and 13 days is over. It takes two to make it work and since WFW (wayward former wife) began the A she was never willing to try. I feel I looked for everything I could to save the M but never found the answer.
My DDs seemed to take it well, saying that it really doesn&#8217;t change the way we have gone about our lives since she left. I still have the house and they are here with me. WFW is living in her apartment and seeing OM when she can. They love and miss their mother (as do I) but seem concerned that now that WFW is a single woman she will expect them to be more accepting of her behavior. I hope their relationship with WFW will improve, but I am selfish enough to hope that they never admit OM into their lives. Will she now leave to be with OM in Canada? Will he ever ask his W for a Dv? Time will tell.
Although I was in PlanB for nearly a year it was apparently not long enough to empty the $LB or it wouldn't hurt so much. I had so hoped that mine would be a success story here and I am sorry that the MB ideas didn&#8217;t seem to work out for us. I wish I had found this sight long before I did. Many, many thanks to all MBs for their advice and support through these hard times. I will continue to lurk and occasionally post if I think I can be of help.
To all of you, Stay Strong.
23down

BS:49, WW:46, OM:60, OMW: 56
Married 24 years now, together 30 years
Two DD, 18(soon to be college freshman) and 21(College senior)
D-day: 2/16/03, wife called from hotel to tell me.
D-day for OM: 4/19/03, older daughter called OMW
PlanB: 8/19/03
Dv granted to WW: 7/15/04

23:

First, I am so sorry. I think I've probably read every single one of your posts since you first came on here, and I really thought that things would 2rn around for the better for you as a COUPLE... ...sadly, they haven't, but maybe they still can. Who knows.

I don't mean 2 imply that you should hang on at all costs, because that's not what I mean. I think you've done all you could for the M, but you may still have some work 2 do for yourself and your DDs. Your W is grievously mistaken if she believes that, after THIS kind of DV for THIS reason, they'll be able 2 carry on as if nothing un2ward ever happened - they won't. You won't, obviously. And she will learn that she can't. Reality may never hit her, but if it does I wouldn't be surprised if it hits when she tries 2 live the rest of her life at OM's beck and call from an apartment and not as his W. OR, she moves 2 Canada and living as his W isn't all it's cracked up 2 be (i.e., living the lie full-time).

I sincerely hope you continue 2 post here, both for your benefit and for ours.

give my regards 2 your family,
-ol' 2long

23,

I am so sorry it has come to this. I think 2L gave you great advice. Take time to grieve this loss and to help your daughters. I think as time goes on they will be even more affected by this than they realize now.

What I do hope for you is peace and that what you have learned here will help you have a relationship in the future that is very fulfilling and rewarding. It is too soon to face that now, but I think it will come and when it does enjoy it to the fullest.

I think 2L is right, your exW is in for some hard times with respect to OM because I doubt seriously if he will divorce his W and mess up HIS family. You may be right this was an exit affair, certainly the exit was made. However, I suspect eventually your exW will have some regrets especially as you continue to learn and be the person you are.

I will end this post with one of my favorite quotes </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The best revenge is a life well lived. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">23Down, I know this is small concellation to you, but I do hope you live your life well, and it is filled with great joy.

God Bless,

JL