Yesterday when I visited my H briefly, he had to change his clothes to go out. I was in the bedroom with him at the time. In his underwear drawer was a pair of yellow panties with frogs on them (not mine).

However, he has a habit of buying satin panties just because they turn him on. I have gotten no x-mas or birthday gifts since we separated, but I have gotten some panties.

My first reaction to the panties was, OMG, they belong to C. She LOVES frogs, and in fact has her entire bathroom decorated with them. The b!@#$ even bought my H some boxer shorts with frogs on them for x-mas.

But, so as not to LB, I didn't boldy state what was running through my mind. I said something about not having any interest in wearing panties with frogs on them. My H said nothing, and went to brush his teeth.

When I left, and kissed him goodbye, I tell you he looked sort of afraid. I asked him why he looked that way and he said he was afraid of everyone. Whatever.

Tonight, less than an hour ago, I got the brilliant idea in my head to put on some pretty lingerie and perfume and just go show up at his house. Well, just as I was about to turn onto his street, he (in his car) and someone else (in another car) both turned onto that street. So I took a loop in a nearby culdesac. They stopped at the house and both went in.

I called him on my cell phone a couple minutes later and he wouldn't answer. So I left a VM and told him I had come over to surprise him, but that I saw he had company so I was going to wait at the end of the street for a couple of mintues then leave.

I drove by the back of the house a few times first, as the lights were on there. It backs onto a street. On the couch was someone who looked 99% like "C", running her hands through her hair. She was talking as though my H was sitting opposite her on the other couch in the room.

What confuses me is the car she was driving is not her car. So there's a chance this woman is not her, but someone else with hair about the same length.

I'm shaking now. What the heck is she doing there after midnight? Tomorrow we all have the day off, but still. Where does she get the nerve to feel comfortable in my home with my H at such an hour?
And what are they doing now I wonder.

I just called my friend who lives down the street to check and see if the car's still there, nearly an hour later, & IT IS! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

WTF do I do? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Jen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Jen Brown,

I thought you were in plan B ... and plan B is called off if he is willing to work on M. Do I miss anything ?.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I'm shaking now. What the heck is she doing there after midnight? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Snooping is very hard and drained LB$ in no time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>WTF do I do?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Tommorow, w/o LB'ng ask him about this incident and ask what he wants to do. You might have to go back to plan B.

-rh-

Thanks for replying in the middle of the night redhat.

I didn't go to plan B. He seemed more willing to communicate, so I said to heck with plan B. I didn't have it in me. It would just make stubborn him run the other way and badmouth me to the world. So I went back to full on plan A and this is what I get.

I guess the rational thing is to talk about it with him tomorrow, but he sometimes lies to me now, and I'm betting he will make me feel like (tell me) it's none of my business or something.

I would like to go to sleep for a couple hours and go back there to see if she's still there. I don't want to bother my friend down the street again. But I can't sleep.

I guess he really is getting his payback. He's got me all worked up. Hope he's happy.

JB

Well I set my alarm for 4am thinking I'd get up and drive by the house again to see if this woman was still there. I changed my mind when the alarm went off and decided I'd rather stay in bed.

Then I couldn't sleep and just as I was getting the nerve up to go there, he calls me. He's here, downstairs. I asked him what he's doing out at 4:30 am and he said he has been out all night. Odd, but I let him up.

When he gets here, he reeks like booze and I let him know that I notice. I asked him about the woman at the house. He explains her as some woman he came across on his way home from his brother's place, that ran out of gas. So he got her some gas from the gerry can in our garage and then invited her back to the house after that for a drink. He even had a stinky gas cap in his coat pocket for me to smell.

Still, I told him how I didn't understand how he could feel comfortable having a woman into the house like that. I pointed out that I'd never been here alone with a man, other than my father. He kept threatening to leave because he didn't like me asking him so many questions.

Then I asked him about the underwear. I told him what my fear was, about the fact that I worried they belonged to "C". He said he bought them in the summer at Kmart because he liked the material.

I also told him how much it hurts me that I am not good enough to be seen in public with him, and do things with him.

Every time I asked him something or told him something he said he wanted to leave, but I calmly persuaded him to stay.

Then I persuaded him to come to bed with me. He tried to put the SF moves on me, and I just wasn't into it, and told him it was because this whole having a woman into the house thing was still bothering me. He said, look, if you're going to do drive bys, you're going to see C or A over watching a movie from time to time. Then I told him how I still didn't understand how they felt comfortable being in my house alone with him. I said maybe it's b/c they don't know that we are in contact and have been having sex. He then asked me if I was going to send them both an email telling them this, and I said no, that there's no point in that.

(Truthfully, I feel like calling A tomorrow and asking her if she knows about all the contact my H and I have had, but I know she'd likely get off the phone with me and then call him.)

Then he got upset and started getting ready to go. I asked him if he read my email that I sent to him the day before yesterday (since he'd never replied to it). I sent him a very heartfelt email about how much my heart aches for him, how sorry I am, how much I regret what I've done, and if there's anything I can do to "help make it possible for you to forgive me and begin to trust me again, or at the very least to be with me again while you work towards the other two." He said he was sorry he doesn't jump to read my emails (in an angry "you selfish b@#!$" kind of tone). He said he has enough to deal with without me sending him emails like that (never mind the fact that it was a very loving email). He said he didn't appreciate me going to visit his mom b/c it takes days for her to get over me visiting. I said it takes me days to get over it too. Then he said angrily, almost yelling, "sure, but you aren't the one with a dead husband."

Then a few moments after that I said to him,"The fact that someone you love has died doesn't give you a license to treat people however you want."
Then he left.

I can hear you already, plan B Jen, plan B. Before you all go off on the "do this, do this" kind of replies, what do you folks think is going on with this man???

I think he actually feels entitled to not treat me well or make any decisions about us and our future b/c he is still grieving and is so wrapped up in dealing with his very upset mom. To an extent, I know she is a mess, and he has been spending significant amounts of time with her b/c of that.

He did ask me sincerely once to let him get over the death of his father before he could deal with me/us. Maybe I'm just an impatient b!@$%?

For those of you who have lost a parent, am I selfish to hope he can work on his relationship with me at the same time? (I know this is how he likely sees me.)

Feeling frustrated AGAIN!

Jen

<small>[ April 21, 2003, 06:23 AM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

So sorry to hear your pain....saddens me to think that inflicting emotional pain on anyone makes someone else feel better.

I know I have hated myself many times for inflicting emotional pain on my wife...I felt like if I am hurting you have to be too.

But it doesn't seem to me he is hurting you or inflicting pain.

If that were the case he would go out of his way to make sure you knew each time he was with someone else.

Now for some semi-tough love.

Jen as a betrayed spouse thick in many of the same emotions your husband must be going thru I really think this not about hurting you in revenge. I feel like he is trying to rebuild his manhood-even if he is doing it in a very childish manner.

I firmly believe this. Since the OM was his best friend he did not have the traditional manly thing of confronting him.

Perhaps he is seeking confirmation of his manhood by way of other women.

Perhaps in reality he hates women at this point and this is a quasi sort of revenge. I know that sounds strange but a long time girl-friend (no romance ever between us and never will be) went thru a rough divorce. She was always pretty well grounded and solid morals. After the divorce she went thru an ugly period where she slept around. She told me this when I turned to her for some advice and a shoulder.

I must have looked a little stunned or surprised so she elaborated a little more. Said she hated men right after her bitter divorce. Slept with them long enough to get their attention then dumped them. It was her revenge so to speak.

I went thru a brief period where thoughts like that crossed my mind. I had lost 35lbs did the Hair Club For Men thing was really looking good. Thought I might want to act out like my female friend had but it was just not in my nature. I joked with our therapist that I was all dressed up with nobody to show.

But yes I was very angry at the other gender so I can see where your husband could be acting out like this....wanting to punish the other sex as a whole for what he perserves as a wrong done by one.

Or as I have said before he is very insecure and looking for someone to leave you over. Perhaps with a little luck he will come to realize that what he is really trying to leave is the pain not the person....still that is hard to see as even betrayed spouses can be in a recovery "fog" too.

What strikes me here is the fact that he was "afraid" rather than proud or defiant that you evidence he might be involved with another woman. If his goal was to get back at you then he would want to rub as much salt in your wound as he could. In which case at least in my way of thinking he would at least be calous about your finding the panties if not out and out cocky about it.

Now here is the part that makes me sound like my therapist.

Good news is that if he is feeling scared about your discovery it more than likely means he is actually feeling guilty as well as they tend to go hand and hand. And having feelings even negative ones means he must still have feelings for you...otherwise he would be apathetic.

Even more good news is there is a fifty fifty chance he is feeling guilty because he still loves you.

Now for the bad news. There is also a fifty fifty chance he is feeling scared/guilty because he is considering leaving you for this person or just leaving you period. Perhaps he is not certain but feels guilty because he has those feelings. We all have felt guilty for feelings even those that we don't act on.

Now for more even bad news...potentially. He has already made up his mind what he wants to do and just hasn't built up the courage to tell you. So he feels guilty when you discover things that show he is moving on with his life....sorry to bring that side up but I really hate for you to think it means one thing without raising the possibility it means another.

Regardless of the outcome Jen you need to heal yourself first and foremost. Good luck.

<small>[ April 21, 2003, 06:36 AM: Message edited by: stunned-dad ]</small>

I can hear you already, plan B Jen, plan B. Before you all go off on the "do this, do this" kind of replies, what do you folks think is going on with this man???

He knows that you love him and there is no challenge for him. He is bored with life and is looking for some sort of a new challenge. Until you give him one, he will keep searching for one. That is it in a nutshell.

You seem to be making something complicated out of something where the answer is simple.(no plan B has ever been needed in your situation.)

Read what happened to Nina too. She has been on here for almost 2 years. Couldn't turn it around all of that time. She lets go, starts dating a week or two ago, Ex. finds out about it, then boom... ex wants to get back together.

The facts point out, to get them back, they have to FEEL that you have let go. As long as you keep pursuing and talking about the relationship, you will keep getting rejected.

Sorry Jen,
I did not make up these rules, only observe what works and what doesn't.

Sorry jen but from where I sit I see the old patterns of shift all focus on him and others..avoid the issues...or even avoid "just being together" with out all this deep and heavy stuff

Why don't you try some time with NO relationship talk what so ever...

Going to the house, peeking in window...setting alarms to go back...none of that is about YOU...
What do you expect to DO about what you find out...
muddy the waters more
get even more off track of potential recovery...by adding more layers more baggage more emotions...more accusations...

He will do what ever he does...
You focus on you...so that EVEN if his actions involve these "other" people....that at the end of day in reflecting it is YOU that remains on his mind...as the most stable and potentially the one he cherishes most...above all others..

It doesn't make you a pushover..you stick to the boundaries you have set that are logical and realistic...

And here you get really off track...
YOU let him in...he reeks of booze...and YET YET you then engage him in relationship talk, accusations, veiled threats and attacks on his behavior...with someone who has been drinking at 4:30 am..??????

Jen where is the sanity if doing this with him...
where is the sanity in doing this if he reeks of booze
NO heavy relationship talk unless he brings it up..you say he hurts you over your affair and yet you hand him ammo case after ammo case to use against you...and turn evey interaction into a whacky off course power struggle...

You allude to him having some woman over..
he can come right back at about your own affair.

you sound more pious because you would never have men over the house alone...
jen did you want to get hurt saying that one..did you want him to...
and ironically he didn't take all the bait you handed him...
GOOD for HIM...he gets credit...

And now we are back to your threats and thought of calling his friends...involving people in things that are none of thier business...for what good reason I ask...

you said...

(Truthfully, I feel like calling A tomorrow and asking her if she knows about all the contact my H and I have had, but I know she'd likely get off the phone with me and then call him.)

ummm yeah she will call him cause that is what people engaging in childish behavior do...

Leave all other parties out of this...
YOU have control in that but you threaten and consider doing the opposite...not the actions of someone in control of themselves, who is above and not responsible for others poor actions and choices...and not the actions of a someone in plan A who wants to decrease the chaos..

Jen, don't power struggle the mom issue with him...
again just handing him more ammo...
tell him that his mom is a grown woman...and if she believes it is to painful to see you then she can tell you that and you will do thusly...
UNTIL then tell your husband you are sorry he feels that way...but the truth is that people that lose someone dearly through death...often lose a lot of others as they fall out of site as time progresses...people who were connected to one the spouse that died...don't often stay in the lives of the widow...couples that do couples things...feel uncomfortable inviting the widow because of the pain or even perception of pain it causes...
Keep her in your life Jen, she has had a great loss don't add to it...tell your husband lovingly that you will talk to his mom...

frustrated?? perhaps it because your own behavior does nothing to protect you,,,nothing that brings focus on what you can control...and letting go of all that you can't...

a whole post all about him...blah blah blah...
where is...the stuff where you say..
I thought about calling this girl or that girl..but decided that it would do no good, just anger my husband, involve another person in something that is none of thier business...and get me off track of fixing things...

Jen same old pattern emerging...
lots of drama..
lots of silly stuff..setting alarm for 4:00 am...
him him him him him him..
it's your biggest stumbling block...
take back to you you you you you.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

ARK

So your H was reeking of booze when he showed up at your house. How did he get there? If he drove, did you call the police when he left? If not, how dare you endanger others lives! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

The panties issue is REALLY bugging me. It's triggering a memory of when H and I were moving his stuff back home:

I found an empty condom wrapper in his bedroom. I inquired about it, and H told me that yes, he had intended to use it for sex with OW#3, but at the last minute they changed their minds. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

In my own denial and desperate desire to believe him, I chose to. It was easier on me at the time. But was it? Nope. Instead, I found out about him having sex with OW#3 from her! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> That was a few weeks AFTER he was moved back home.

I am getting so tired of seeing you repeatedly hurt yourself Jen. It's killing me inside, it really is. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Your H isn't going to change his ways, certainly NOT for you. He has to want to do it for himself, and he is so far away from that it isn't even funny!

Let Go and Let God, Jen.

Karen

s-d: Thanks for all the possible scenarios for what's going on inside his head. I hear this bizarre little voice of reason telling me not to waste my time trying to guess that though. And I also hear ark^^^ saying "take back to you you you you you.. "

Topie said: "Your H isn't going to change his ways, certainly NOT for you. He has to want to do it for himself, and he is so far away from that it isn't even funny!

Let Go and Let God, Jen. "

Indeed Topie, he seems to be miles away from wanting to change himself for himself. I feel, at the moment, like just flat out giving up on him all over again. Telling him either he wants to rebuild our friendship and spend quality time (sober time) together doing non-sexual things, then I'll see him, otherwise, forget him, don't let him rule my world.

It's all about conrol for him, I know that. Maybe stunned-dad has pegged it the best, he's in the midst of trying to rebuild his manhood.

His father's passing seems to have become an excuse for him, one I wonder if he'll use forever.

I wonder if keepmovin4ward has the right idea, sound like I've given up and I'm moving forward with my life, to snap him out if his fog. BUT I firmly believe that it is wrong to date other people while still married (even if we are separated).

Why am I so stupid? I don't know what to do. I think you people have tried hard to tell me too, so that's why I feel dumb. Call me a dumb drama queen, because it seems that is what I am, but I'm not sure what to do. For now I'm just going to avoid him until I figure out what I should do. If I'm going to go back into "look after me" mode, does that just mean I don't waste my time contacting him or reaching out to him, and go back to keeping busy with my own friends and my own life?

Jen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

<small>[ April 21, 2003, 10:28 AM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jen Brown:
<strong>Why am I so stupid? I don't know what to do. I think you people have tried hard to tell me too, so that's why I feel dumb. .... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jen, you are not stupid or dumb but you are still pretty much in love with your H. Love makes us doing silly thing <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> . You can't talk to H at all ... last night you are not talking to him but to the booze, nothing will stay. All words evaporated by now. You will learn, we are all have our time table to do plan B. What I am afraid is that you overstay in plan A and you will have a hard time to get your feeling back for H. You could snapped ! there are soo much one could take.

-rh-

Jen:

"I can hear you already, plan B Jen, plan B. Before you all go off on the "do this, do this" kind of replies, what do you folks think is going on with this man???"

It's not important what I think. But I think it's clear he's behaving inappropriately with these women. Maybe even having an A or As.

You're here to help YOU, though. Not figure him out. Figure you out, Jen. What do you want? And is what you want what you need or deserve??

Take care,
-Qfwfq

Jen,
You have been at this same game for some time, and it clearly is not working. You can keep playing it, wonder why it doesn't work, and remain frustrated and angry, or you can change the game if you hope for different results.

Trying to understand him, figure him out, change his behavior, or otherwise get him to "do" something is also not going to work; it'll be an endless source of furstration and more anger for you.

What CAN you do? You can (and should) do whatever you can do for yourself. Find the way to let go of him, find the way to be happy on your own, realize your happiness and wholeness does not depend on him...there are many things you can do.

But one of them is not going to be to get him to be "rational" or change. I'm sorry to say this to you. I love you and care for you...and I wish it weren't so...but since it is, I feel compelled to tell you what I think. The truth is often hard, but resisting it, or pretending it will change is harder.

I wonder if keepmovin4ward has the right idea, sound like I've given up and I'm moving forward with my life, to snap him out if his fog. BUT I firmly believe that it is wrong to date other people while still married (even if we are separated).

Hey Jen,
Thanks for listening.

You are right.. I do have the right idea....
What I have been telling you all along will work.
Why do I know that? Because I have been studying relationships for over 20 years. I am not a BS or a WS. I just have a great desire to help people get a relationship back on track. I have seen over and over and over the very things you are going through. I have observed what WORKS to get them back. It will work, but I can not do it for you.

Recap of what works to get them to come around:

1)Act happy just the way things are!
(It seems no matter what he gives, you always want a little more. When he was not calling you a few months back, you just wanted to talk to him. Then when he only wanted sex, you wanted sex AND a relationship. Now you want to have him take you out and be seen with you.)There are more examples, but I hope you get the idea.

Jen, If you want to see him when he wants to come over, then see him. If you want to have sex with him, then have sex with him. Just let him see that you are perfectly happy with wherever the relationship is. Don't ask about or talk about the relationship AT ALL. If he wants to hang up on you, just say ok, talk to you later.

2) It is ok to talk to him on the phone. BUT, start being the one to end the conversations. YOU hang up first.(not rudely or in anger) Just let him WONDER. Talk for a few minutes, then say,well, I have to go, talk to you later. Then hang up.

3)You do not have to date if you do not want, but it does bring them back faster. Whether you do or not is up to you,BUT you can make him WONDER if you are seeing anybody. How? By being mysterious.
By being BUSY. By not answering the phone EVERY time. By not asking him anything about your relationship.

4) Learn to agree... Learn to agree... Learn to agree... This is very, very powerful. You have tried disagreeing with him until we are all blue in the face. Start agreeing with his comments. When you do this consistently, you will see him changing his tune. If he says he can't forgive you... Tell him he is right, maybe he can't. Maybe there is too much water under the bridge. You have been feeling the same way. Tell him you realize that what you did ruined the relationship and you do not blame him for the way he feels. Tell him you would feel the same way...

4)Stop telling him how much you love him. Stop writing love letters and how you long for him.etc.

5)Stop ALL PRESSURE. Do not give him the tiniest bit of pressure. People fight against pressure.
Men are like puppies. Chase them they run. Walk away from them, they come back.

6)Some men need a challenge. I am sorry that it works that way, but REALITY shows us it does.
We all want what we can't have. Then when we get it we tire of it and move on to the next challenge. He wants to pursue you, but you will not let him. Do not be so predictable. Every so often, when he calls, cut him short. Tell him you are sorry, but you will have to call him back. You have to go.(Do not mention where or with whom)
If he asks, just tell him you do not want to talk about it. If he accuses you of having another guy,tell him, maybe I do. Tell him that he has been right, that since it has not been working, that you have realized that it is time to move on......

This is the attitude that works. He is bored. He is looking for something to get him out of the boredom of everyday life. He has low self-esteem.
What you have been doing is playing right into his hand. It is gradually destroying a chance to reconcile.

Good luck..

Hey jen... I read your reply to me and popped over here too look over your thread...

How do you focus on you...

Well, I went from reading books about "how to save my marriage"... to reading books on "how to save ME."

I ABSOLUTELY quit talking about "our" relationship... UNLESS he brought something up.

In your case, and in having read some of your threads... I really think you need to get to the HEART of your relationship... what keeps you guys EMOTIONALLY connected... I really liked "The Passionate Marriage" for this... Schnarch even gets into the 'sexual' arena... and how the way married couples act in their bedroom means to their marriage.

You two are connected... but at this point the connection is not very healthy... I have vague memories that Schnarch gets into a definition of co-dependency that really made sense to me.

Now as to the 'me' books... I got into a small group @ church that is going through Cloud and Townsend's books ( www.cloudtownsend.com ) ... "Hiding from Love," "Safe People," and "Changes That Heal" They also wrote the "Boundaries" books.

You and your H have definitely NOT been safe for each other.

Make EVERYTHING you do about YOU... not him. 'cause it IS... even if you want to make it about him it is NOT... that is the point that you have to get to...

What he does is about him. What you do is about you. Can you go from there to a healthy relationship. WHAT WOULD IT TAKE TO GET THERE? One of you has to start... I started w/ getting myself healthy... emotionally... spiritually...

We were separated only a month. We have three kids and were married 12 years. There was a LOT of history... but the bottomline was that as bad as our relationship was... it wasn't TOXIC... we didn't HATE each other... our problem was more of major POWER struggle and mid-life challenges...

My kids are home and I am getting distracted <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ... I hope this didn't get too garbled...

Hugs and prayers,
Cali

I lost my mom to cancer a few years ago. She was 46. He using it as an excuse. He was acting like this before his dad passed away. It hasn't been THAT long. Now it's anothe way to prolong things.

I'm sad to say that my opinion is you will have to be the one to make a decision. The even worse part of my opinion is you know you have only one decision available to you.

I'll part with this saying - "You can lead a horse to water...
but you can't make him drink." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

<small>[ April 21, 2003, 05:10 PM: Message edited by: findingmywayback ]</small>

I am so thankful for all the wise people here! Thanks for all of today's posts.

I went out today and visited my H's grandparents. They were very happy to see me. We had a good visit. While I was out, my H called, no message.

I honestly caught myself several times today formulating another sort of Plan B letter or conversation in my head. I'm not willing to work on saving our M if he's busy inviting women off the street into his home late at night for a drink. We're in two totally different places.

As Q said, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You're here to help YOU, though. Not figure him out. Figure you out, Jen. What do you want? And is what you want what you need or deserve?? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for asking that. I needed to revisit that in my head, and put me first. I want to be treated like a worthwhile human being. I want to be treated like his equal. I want to be allowed to do fun things with him. I want to be treated with respect. I need to be the most important woman in his life. (Right now I am not getting any of this. Maybe he'd say I'm selfish and asking for too much, but it's what I want and need.)

SC said, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Find the way to let go of him, find the way to be happy on your own, realize your happiness and wholeness does not depend on him...there are many things you can do. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know, I have worked hard in this area in the past year. I've made huge leaps and bounds in this area. That's the biggest thing I've learned this year. I am a valuable and worthwhile person, whether I'm married to him or not. But, then I get this crazy desperate feeling (it must be love like redhat said), and I have given in to him off and on several times and then I lose sight of myself again.

keepmvn4wrd, I was doing most or all of those 6 things, and saw some progress, he was actually pursuing me, but I guess because I didn't see enough progress, wo I backed up and turned into a doormat of sorts for him again, and went back to the old habits that just result in heartache for me. Time to get back at that method I guess. That or a full-on plan B. I think this crap about having some complete stranger into his house is a turning point for us. Maybe it is time to try plan B.

It's so wierd. I've NEVER just shown up at his house out of the blue before, except for on Christmas Eve before I left town with my folks. I was sitting here last night and had a sudden urge to go over there, and what did I come across. Sometimes I think God gives us intuition for a reason.....

Cali, thanks for the book suggestions. I think I may start with Schnarch's book. I've heard it mentioned on here a few times and it sounds very worthwhile. I've been happiest in this past year when I've focussed on me. Then it seems the guilt or my desperation to make things work between us NOW screws all that progress up and puts me back at square one, at least temporarily.

So I need to decide, Plan A with all those practical suggestions from keepmvn4wrd, or Plan B, tell him something like, "Unless you are willing to completely recommit to me and our marriage, and wholeheartedly agree to work at our relationship, I can no longer be in contact with you. To continue contact with you in the way things have gone lately is just too painful and hurtful for me." (Or pull some of the phrases from that Plan B letter I worked so hard on a few weeks ago.)

I've fallen back into old behavioural patterns, and it just doesn't work. It enables him to upset me all over again.

I tell you, after talking with his Grandma today, and hearing how controlling my H's mom was with my FIL for so many years, I see how much my H is like his mom, and I wonder if I really want to sign up for more of that. It would be so nice to be with someone who isn't a control freak. (OM wasn't controlling....there's another possible reason for the affair.)

Okay, sorry for the long post. Sometimes, as you all well know, I type here parly to vent and partly seeking advice.

Thanks again for putting up with Jen the drama queen.

Jen

You deserve to love and be loved
You deserve honesty
You deserve commitment

Don't settle for less, don't compromise on this.

Jen:

What SC said. And:

"Thanks for asking that. I needed to revisit that in my head, and put me first."

Yes! And by putting you first, you will be better prepared for a mutually rewarding M later.

"I want to be treated like a worthwhile human being."

Good!

"I want to be treated like his equal."

Well, good. But not just "his" equal. You're equal to every individual on this planet (and maybe a few others).

"I want to be allowed to do fun things with him."

This is where you're departing from what you really need, Jen. You can't do fun things with him until he gives you the respect you deserve (if he can). Unless you want a shallow R with him to get it.

"I want to be treated with respect."

And you deserve this. And you can get it, if you give it to yourself first.

"I need to be the most important woman in his life."

What if he can't make you his most important? Until he grows up, I don't think he can do this. Don't kill yourself waiting for him to.

"(Right now I am not getting any of this. Maybe he'd say I'm selfish and asking for too much, but it's what I want and need.)"

Still too much emphasis on HIM. We need to see more of JEN here. How can we help Jen?

-Qfwfq

So I supposed part of the "back off and look after me" type of Plan A behaviour would include never mentioning the woman at his house again?

I'd really like to ask him who he's told about that little event in his life, or rather, who he has bragged to.

But, I can hear you all now, stop focussing on him.

Sigh, old habits die hard,

Jen

Jen:

"But, I can hear you all now, stop focussing on him."

That time, you DID hear me! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

You're what's important, Jen. Not speculation about what he's doing. Let him guess what YOU'RE doing for a change!

-Qfwfq